Question

[TheGreek!]

Has the NFA act of 1934 ever been challenged in court? If so, did it make it to the supreme court? If so, what was their excuse for saying it was constitutional? Same goes for the open bolt ban in 1981 and the MG ban in 1986, have they ever been challenged in court??

[KernelKrink]

The Miller case was the only "modern" 2nd Amendment case before Heller, and the only one to directly address NFA firearms prohibitions under it. It was a Cluster****, but did have a good ruling for the most part.

IIRC, Miller was a Moonshiner who got caught with a sawed off shotgun and arrested for it. Convicted under the new NFA law for possessing an unregistered SBS, he appealed, it was overturned on Constitutional grounds, and eventually wound up before SCOTUS. Unfortunately, by this time Miller had died and his atty never bothered to show up. So all the court had to go on was the testimony of the prosecution, with no defense at all.

The prosecution argued, among other things, that the second only protected "militia type weapons" and that no US military unit ever used a short bbl shotgun. The Court held that the militia was any male citizen of a certain age and was expected to provide his own arms if called up, thus ownership of militia suitable weapons were the only type protected by the Second Amendment. However, faced with the lie from the prosecution that an SBS was not suitable for militia use, and having no evidence presented to the contrary, they found the 2nd didn't protect an SBS at that time (obviously, if the military started using them, they would then be protected) and sent the case back to the appeals court for reconsideration under this ruling. Miller being dead, there was no reconsideration.

Subsequent rulings that reference Miller, up until Heller, ignore most of the good part of the ruling and interpret it to mean the feds can't prohibit States from keeping militia arms. Heller, however, got it right:

"Miller stands only for the proposition that the Second Amendment right, whatever its nature, extends only to certain types of weapons. It is particularly wrongheaded to read Miller for more than what it said, because the case did not even purport to be a thorough examination of the Second Amendment."


There was also a case in the late 60s that invalidated the NFA, something about the registration requirements ran afoul of the 5th amendment self incrimination protection and the whole thing was tossed. They quickly rewrote it to pass muster and incorporated it into the GCA '68, allowing a short amnesty period where anyone with an unregistered item could register it without any self incrimination problems.

The Hughes amendment, regardless of any irregularities in it's passage, is obviously afoul of Miller because almost every military member is issued an MG. The problem is NFA firearms and MGs in particular are pretty scary items to the layman, and their ownership is a political hot potato. Even the lawyers for Heller did not want to bring NFA arguments into the picture as they may have adversely affected their arguments. One assumes more people would approve of handgun ownership by the general public than MG ownership, so trying to extend protection to both would have a lower chance of success.

Open bolts, don't know of the specific case but apparently the owners of the company producing the open bolt MACs that got banned made a video showing how easy it was to convert various closed bolt guns into MGs, often in mere minutes, for use in a case addressing the issue. No idea what the outcome was, but apparently it still stands.

[TheGreek!]

Political hot potato or not, NFA is unconstitutional, PERIOD, and I'm really thinking on petitioning the AZ legislature and also governor Brewer to challenge the government on NFA...I can actually see it happening too because of all the other gun friendly stuff they've done here lately like get rid of the concealed carry laws for example, we dont need any kind of permit to carry concealed here...If they wont do it I'll take the government to court myself if I can find the financial backing to pay for the lawyers...

[bubbazan68]

you should look at the stewart rulling
just a few years back, 9th circuit looked at it us supreme remanded back to the 9th.
while he did get busted for pot and having MG.s
The 9th said that the MG,s where OK since they were all home built but that he did not have the
ATF Paper work done so slap on the wrist ( BUT THEY SAID IT WAS OK FOR HOMEBUILT)
He did go to jail on the drug charge so guns were a mute point I guess I will have to get my links out if I can find them I will post the story for you

[rlmono]

I got 20 buck on it.......

[bubbazan68]

here is some of it

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showth...hlight=stewart

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by rlmono

I got 20 buck on it.......

This gives me an idea, maybe a nationwide petition drive/donation drive through the NRA and other organizations to help pay for the lawyers needed to get rid of the NFA....

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by bubbazan68

you should look at the stewart rulling
just a few years back, 9th circuit looked at it us supreme remanded back to the 9th.
while he did get busted for pot and having MG.s
The 9th said that the MG,s where OK since they were all home built but that he did not have the
ATF Paper work done so slap on the wrist ( BUT THEY SAID IT WAS OK FOR HOMEBUILT)
He did go to jail on the drug charge so guns were a mute point I guess I will have to get my links out if I can find them I will post the story for you

I'll bet the "paperwork" they said he didnt file meant jumping through all the hoops and going through all the hassle and expense to become a class 2 manufacturer and wait for some law enforcement agency to ask to build a MG for them in order to build an MG...We shouldnt have to go through all that if we want an MG, we should just be able to go buy them anywhere or convert regular guns for free like it used to be before the government stole our gun rights.

[bubbazan68]

opsie my bad after looking it up looks like they repealed it in 2006 and did convict him of the MG's
at first it was ok for homade MG's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Stewart_(2003)

"...a homemade machine gun may be part of a gun collection or may be crafted as a hobby. Or it may be used for illegal purposes. Whatever its intended use, without some evidence that it will be sold or transferred—and there is none here—its relationship to interstate commerce is greatly attenuated."
"...section 922(o) contains no jurisdictional element anchoring the prohibited activity to interstate commerce."
"...there is no evidence that section 922(o) was enacted to regulate commercial aspects of the machine gun business. More likely, section 922(o) was intended to keep machine guns out of the hands of criminals—an admirable goal, but not a commercial one."


then they change for no real reason other then

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...s_1n1guns.html
The three-judge panel, however, was ordered by the Supreme Court to reconsider its decision after the justices ruled in 2005 that the federal government could prosecute medical marijuana users and suppliers even if their activity was confined to California.

In the marijuana case, brought by Oakland resident Angel Raich, the majority of Supreme Court justices ruled that the interstate commerce clause makes California's medical marijuana law illegal. The court said homegrown marijuana confined to the state can affect the entire national market for the drug, allowing for federal regulation.

The same rationale was applied by the appeals court in its unanimous ruling in the homemade machine gun case.

_______________________________\

so its all the $&#*($^# pot head fault

[cerebral aSSassin]

Originally Posted by TheGreek!

This gives me an idea, maybe a nationwide petition drive/donation drive through the NRA and other organizations to help pay for the lawyers needed to get rid of the NFA....

somehow i think your money going through the nra, would not end up where it should, thus you getting screwed out of all the donations. jmo though.

great idea, just dont think going through the nra would be your best bet. but im cautious of everyone.

[bubbazan68]

Originally Posted by TheGreek!

I'll bet the "paperwork" they said he didnt file meant jumping through all the hoops and going through all the hassle and expense to become a class 2 manufacturer and wait for some law enforcement agency to ask to build a MG for them in order to build an MG...We shouldnt have to go through all that if we want an MG, we should just be able to go buy them anywhere or convert regular guns for free like it used to be before the government stole our gun rights.

befor they over turned it, many a person talked about fileing a stewart form 1 to get to make an MG, no one ever showed one though.
not that the ATF would ever aprove one.
i talked to a class # dealer who knew a gun lawer and ran it past him and he said his lawyer friend said no one will touch it.
that was in 2004

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by bubbazan68

The court said homegrown marijuana confined to the state can affect the entire national market for the drug, allowing for federal regulation.

The same rationale was applied by the appeals court in its unanimous ruling in the homemade machine gun case.

_______________________________\

so its all the $&#*($^# pot head fault

It cant affect commerce in something that doesnt exist, meaning, the commerce of new machine guns because the 1986 law forbids us to even own a new MG let alone make one at home. Therefore there is no interstate commerce in new MG's that can be affected by building your own MG's....Case dismissed....


And the fact that we can still legally buy and own pre '86 MG's is the reason to use to get rid of the 1986 law....If we are legally be able to buy an old one then there is no legal reason why we shouldnt be able to buy a new one, PERIOD!

[bubbazan68]

Originally Posted by TheGreek!

It cant affect commerce in something that doesnt exist, meaning, the commerce of new machine guns because the 1986 law forbids us to even own a new MG let alone make one at home. Therefore there is no interstate commerce in new MG's that can be affected by building your own MG's....Case dismissed....


And the fact that we can still legally buy and own pre '86 MG's is the reason to use to get rid of the 1986 law....If we are legally be able to buy an old one then there is no legal reason why we shouldnt be able to buy a new one, PERIOD!

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

Originally Posted by TheGreek!

And the fact that we can still legally buy and own pre '86 MG's is the reason to use to get rid of the 1986 law....If we are legally be able to buy an old one then there is no legal reason why we shouldnt be able to buy a new one, PERIOD!

+1,000,000. I have never understood that. The same as requiring a certain number of parts to be U.S. made. What the hell is the difference? A piston is a piston and a trigger is a trigger. At the end of the day, it still does what it was designed to do.

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by bubbazan68

befor they over turned it, many a person talked about fileing a stewart form 1 to get to make an MG, no one ever showed one though.
not that the ATF would ever aprove one.
i talked to a class # dealer who knew a gun lawer and ran it past him and he said his lawyer friend said no one will touch it.
that was in 2004

Like I said, if no lawyer will touch it (doubtful though, if it means getting paid a lawyer will sue anyone for anything) then I'll sue the government myself once I have enough money to be able to do it (meaning go up the court ladder all the way to the supreme court)...If no lawyer will take the case then I have the legal right to represent myself and my case will be the repeal of the NFA act, the 1968 act, the 1981 act, and the 1986 act too because not only are they ALL unconstitutional, they are also interfering with my pursuit of happiness...We can win this if we give it a serious enough try...


I'm gonna start by looking into how to lobby the AZ state legislature on this issue first, if that fails then will come the petition drive through ALL of the major gun rights organizations and I'll go from there...I'm serious too, I wanna be the guy thats known as the one that gave us our gun rights back...

[dOols]

Originally Posted by GRUNGEWEHR39

+1,000,000. I have never understood that. The same as requiring a certain number of parts to be U.S. made. What the hell is the difference? A piston is a piston and a trigger is a trigger. At the end of the day, it still does what it was designed to do.

Im almost tempted to wonder if there wasn't some ridiculous lobbying done by American Parts kits manufacturers in order to get that one passed...the law in its own right is mind blowingly stupid

[drjarhead]

MO is that by far our biggest problem is '68 GCA.

Overturn that and go from there.

Or simply get it repealed.

Maybe we need to make some 3000 page Bills that we can see after it is enacted. lol.

One sentence about 3/4 of the way through it: The GCA of 1968 is hereby repealed.

No Congress is going to overturn NFA.
For that we need a conservative Supreme Court to revisit it given the military weapon decision of the court.

I don't see the Huges Amendment as being much worth going after. How to get the Court to decide on the basis of congressional impropriety? Don't see how that flies as the Court doesn't generally get involved in Legislative Branch procedure and rules. They generally avoid that as a separate branch of govt under its own rules.

Someone could correct me if I am wrong and there is some sort of precedent for that. I don't know of any.

[nalioth]

Originally Posted by dOols

Im almost tempted to wonder if there wasn't some ridiculous lobbying done by American Parts kits manufacturers in order to get that one passed...the law in its own right is mind blowingly stupid

At the time the law was passed, there were no "American Parts kits manufacturers".

[drjarhead]

Originally Posted by bubbazan68

i talked to a class # dealer who knew a gun lawer and ran it past him and he said his lawyer friend said no one will touch it.
that was in 2004

Well my sister's dog's second cousin says different!

Lawyers will do almost anything for money. Some will do anything.

Just a matter of finding the right attorney, having enough money, and most of all: We need a favorable Court.

NFA is vulnerable on the face of it. It was from day one.
Remember that the nation was extremely socialist when NFA was passed and when it went before the Court. That figured prominently, as did the case that Miller nor his attorney were able to present a case. The entire thing was bullshit and that makes it vulnerable.
The fact they determined that only military suitable weapons were protected by the 2nd also works in our favor.

But you HAVE TO HAVE a favorable Court. The Lefties on the current court don't care about the Constitution or justice, only about their leftwing agenda.

[KernelKrink]

Greek, the NRA does not start court cases over NFA items as a rule, like I said the issues related to "gangster guns" are a political hot potato and they prefer to keep clear of it. They are already routionely accused of "wanting to arm criminals with deadly assault weapons", an actual case involving MGs would be just the ammo their critics need. So while they will "support" your rights to own NFA stuff, they generally do nothing about it besides writing press relelases.

As stated, GOA and JPFO both actively support NFA issues, and if you really want to help out they would be a better recipient of your funds than the NRA.

As far as the NFA itself being unconstitutional, on it's face it is merely a sales tax, the registration is just there to facilitate the collection of the tax. Congress has almost unlimited power to tax, so it probably would pass under that rationale. As far as Interstate Commerce goes, the existing MGs are always going up in price due to a fixed supply and expanding demand. Introducing a legal MG either under the "made commercially for sale only in this state" or "Homemade and not for sale" argument would "affect" interstate commerce as people could now purchase or build an item instead of purchasing from the limited supply. Demand goes down, prices do too.

Arizona was talking about passing a states rights bill exempting "made in Arizona" guns and such from Fed regulation if they never left the state, did it ever pass? Even the AZ legislature is "gunshy" over MGs as they specifically excluded them from the bill.

[TheGreek!]

Fuck the NRA, why is everybody focusing on that on little part of the sentance in my post!!! I know there's other freakin groups to go through already!!! Stop it with the NRA sidetrack, I'm getting a freakin headache from it, I wanna stay focused on the subject being discussed instead!!! And thats the poorest excuse I've ever heard to defend keeping new MG's illegal, its affected my pursuit of happiness because the 1986 law made it impossible for me and millions of other people to be able to afford something I want to buy that would make me happy!!! Not only that, intentionally making it so that a product is unaffordable to the general public for sale has to be breaking some OTHER kinds of commerce laws, dont ya think? If thats the case then the government and the police departments should also have to pay the stupid prices we do for an MG, why do THEY get to be able to get them for dirt cheap w/no hassles but not US, hmmmmm???

[KernelKrink]

You brought the NRA up as a possible answer, we were just informing you they weren't. If you feel so strongly about it, here's how you do something meaningful. Fill out a Form 1 and tell ATF you want to make a prototype MG of your own design for personal use only, send it in with the $200 tax. When ATF rejects the application, sue them. Get an Atty experienced in NFA law and precedents like Bardwell or ? and start it up the Judicial Food Chain. Get the GOA and JPFO and whoever else you can find on board with you. Pray we get at least one more Supreme Court Justice friendly to the 2A before it winds up before them.

Anything else is just some guys posting on the Internet.

[Trueno]

answer

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

All the above mentioned groups will do nothing to turn this matter around. Same shit. Send money, another law passes. Send more money, another bill into law. Fuck em all. How about we pick a date and show up at the capitol. 5 million armed law abiding citizens. What would they do? There would be more of us then them. That's the way they like to vote things. Right? Nevermind we are a Republic and have laws, they like the Democratic mob-rules system.

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by GRUNGEWEHR39

All the above mentioned groups will do nothing to turn this matter around. Same shit. Send money, another law passes. Send more money, another bill into law. Fuck em all. How about we pick a date and show up at the capitol. 5 million armed law abiding citizens. What would they do? There would be more of us then them. That's the way they like to vote things. Right? Nevermind we are a Republic and have laws, they like the Democratic mob-rules system.

I'm all for that approach too...Something has to be done or we will NEVER get our rights back. By the way, before anyone mentions it, I couldnt care less if some gun collectors that paid 15 grand + for their legal full auto AK's dont like it either. Fuck them and all the other greedy bastards that would want to keep the laws as they are so they can continue to raise the prices ever higher for old MG's and keep new ones out of our hands...

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

Damn straight. Something has to break here. These fuckholes in congress WILL NOT stop until the guns are gone. That is the ONLY thing that is stopping them from a full takeover. There has to be some lawyers out there with a set and who are avid shooters. But, how to get them into this fight without ending up with groups like the NRA and so on.

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

So, what to do? Let this be just another thread of bullshit that goes nowhere? Gets a few of us pissed off? Or can we, being mostly strangers, actually start something to change this shit. Makes you wonder how the first conversations of the Founding Fathers started. Tea party for gun owners? Why are the socialists on the left and on the right are good at community organizing? Because they sit around and talk this shit out while the rest of us have to go to work, raise our kids, and a host of other responsibilities. We need to start doing the same. But how? Ideas....

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

OK. We start to hopefully vote the right people in and wait 100 years or so, and viola, problem solved. I can hear the full auto fire from my great, great, great grandchildren now as they dance over my grave and shoot in the air. Seriously, there has to be a way. I think hiring lawyers (ones on OUR side) and challenging in court? I think that the money problem could be addressed on firearms forums in the form of donations. None of the pussy footin around shit either. Take on the root laws and the lesser bullshit laws would follow.

[TheGreek!]

MONEY!!

THATS what its gonna take, money for the lawyers...A lawyer that loves the 2nd amendment would really come in handy, especially if he'll do it Pro Bono (doubtful though, all laywers are vampires)....All we need to start it off is a SERIOUS petition drive on the internet describing in detail what the petition is for and how it will be handled too, like refunding whats left of the donations back to the donaters if there is any money left when its all done. A vote will be taken to determine who will be the one to actually sue the government and go through the bullshit (I will if nobody else will, I have no problem doing it if I know that the people and the money is there behind me to do it). It is totally legal to do it, it is nothing more than a public petition drive to get some laws changed and a public donation campaign to try to make it happen. There is nothing the government can do to stop it because its 1000% legal to do it in this manner...It will bring public attention to the issue also, and if by the grace of god Ron Paul wins the election I will take it all the way to his desk if need be, I'll lobby the president if I have to. I think the time to start this would be after the election, after we see just how many commies get thrown out and who gets the presidency...I will not rest until I can get the government off of our backs and get their grip off of our necks. I wanna start by lobbying the AZ state legislature to take up the issue and then go from there. I've never lobbied a state legislature before though, does anybody know how to do it properly?

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

I have always been leery of internet petitions, or anything like electronic voting anyhow. How about, if there is a way, contact as many firearms discussion forums as possible and look into sending a paper petition around to each member. A person signs, and mails it to the next guy on the list. It could be made totally voluntary. I would pay the $2 to ship it to the next guy. I notice some of the forums have a shitload of members.

[GRUNGEWEHR39]

I would have no problem supporting anybody in this quest, as long as there is complete transparency. The persons complete background would have to be known. Don't want any skeletons in the closet trying to shove a bone up your ass.

[BigAl]

never gonna happen. there are hundreds of things going on that are not constitutional.

The Supremes don't mean shit.

Here's how it would go - FA's are legal again, the gubmint raises the tax stamp to $15,000

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by GRUNGEWEHR39

I would have no problem supporting anybody in this quest, as long as there is complete transparency. The persons complete background would have to be known. Don't want any skeletons in the closet trying to shove a bone up your ass.

Of course, thats a given. I've never been convicted of ANYTHING in my life for example, no DUI's, no drugs, no nothing. It would be VERY hard for them to try to dig up anything from my past that could even be remotely possible to having any relevance to the NFA case I wanna put in front of the court. In fact any kind of diversion they try to use should be used against them instead, I will say that they are trying to divert the issue instead of face it and will continue to say it over and over again and not dignify ANY personal attacks with an answer until they give up on that tactic. Hopefully It'll be a lawyer that'll be doing it instead of me but I'm more than willing to take on the challenge myself if I know that the backing will be there....

[TheGreek!]

Originally Posted by BigAl

never gonna happen. there are hundreds of things going on that are not constitutional.

The Supremes don't mean shit.

Here's how it would go - FA's are legal again, the gubmint raises the tax stamp to $15,000

NO, YOU ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR THE TAX STAMP IN THE FIRST PLACE BY GETTING THE NFA OVERTURNED IN ITS ENTIRETY, PERIOD, NOTHING LESS THAN THAT IS ACCEPTABLE!!

[KernelKrink]

A traditional petition isn't going to do anything, they will simply ignore it like they have the 3 thousand ones before it. The only time a petiton works is if you have a ballot issue or some such where a certain number of signatures is needed to get it put on a ballot. That might be how you wanna go for the AZ end of things, essentially take the issue straight to the people who vote and bypass the elected clowns who have other agendas. That would require a local movement confined to AZ residents, Internet forums would only be a source of signatures if you have an AZ gunowners one. A National one like most are would only net you a few dozen at most.

Attacking from a Federal angle, first thing to do is get the rejection from ATF, all that will cost is the loss of the use of $200 for a few months until ATF refunds it to you. Again, a petition or demonstration will do nothing. Look at all the people who showed up for the Tea Party Rally in DC, the government types ran out of town and the media played it like only 48 people showed up, and they "translated" the Tea Party message into simple racism against a minority President.

If money is needed, that's when you go to all the gun forums, especially the military rifle and NFA ones and ask for donations. Have an atty setup a trust or something with an accountant who can ensure the whole thing is above board and all the funds are used for the case and lawyer costs. Until there is an actual "Greek Vs BATFE" case on the records, most people will be reluctant to donate. Once the case is filed though, you should see some cash come in as people will know it's likely not a scam.

Another thing to consider is what federal appeals court district you are in. IIRC, AZ is in the same one as Kali, and we all know how many nutburger decisions have come out of there. What we really need to up the odds of a victory is to have simultaneous multiple cases in different districts, with either a unanimous decision in our favor, or a mixed set of verdicts. Unanimous, all SCOTUS has to do is decline to hear the case and we win in those districts. Future cases in other districts would likely look to those precedents when deciding. Mixed, SCOTUS is likely to hear it as a conflict between courts is one of their major criteria for accepting a case.