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Old 06-20-2011, 12:27 PM   #1
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Default Why are Romy G's the bottom of the barrel?

Maybe I'm way off here, but it seems like Romy G's are the least desired of the AK's. I know there are "Romanian" AK's and also "Romanian G's" but I don't know what the difference is. Other than the "G". I think the G's have a chrome lined barrel, and I know they were for the Romanian Guard and may not have been used much, but why do people not like them as much? Maybe they're just not as rare?

Personally, I don't like the dong on the front, but if that were replaced with a Romanian lower HG, and the G covered up, isn't this now pretty much a standard Romanian AKM?

For that matter, I'm still not sure how to tell the difference between a Romanian, hungarian, and a Bulgarian. (All those -ians confuse me..) I think I can spot a Chinese and Yugo, but how do you tell the diff in these 3?
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:45 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch
Maybe I'm way off here, but it seems like Romy G's are the least desired of the AK's. I know there are "Romanian" AK's and also "Romanian G's" but I don't know what the difference is. Other than the "G". I think the G's have a chrome lined barrel, and I know they were for the Romanian Guard and may not have been used much, but why do people not like them as much? Maybe they're just not as rare?

Personally, I don't like the dong on the front, but if that were replaced with a Romanian lower HG, and the G covered up, isn't this now pretty much a standard Romanian AKM?

For that matter, I'm still not sure how to tell the difference between a Romanian, hungarian, and a Bulgarian. (All those -ians confuse me..) I think I can spot a Chinese and Yugo, but how do you tell the diff in these 3?

The Romanian G kit is the most prevalent foreign AKM parts kit in the US. If the kit has the original barrel intact, it should indeed be chrome lined. Don't equate quantity with quality, because the Romanian G kit is an EXCELLENT AKM parts kit. The furniture may not be that great but as you said, can easily be switched out. That's what makes the Romanian G kit so adaptable.

As far as Romanian rifles your probably referring to the WASR series imported by Century Arms. AFAIK, the WASR rifle has absolutely nothing to do with the Romanian "G" kit except for being produced in Romania.

To differentiate between European countries, look at the front trunnion markings.

This website shows what markings are what...
http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Markings.php
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:50 PM   #3
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They're "bottom of the barrel" because "familiarity breeds contempt".

As B166ER noted, these are the most imported AK parts kits the USA has seen, and when they first came in, they were being given away with larger orders at some places.

They are in no way inferior to any other communist factory AK (unless, of course, it's the opinion of one of these folks who rates aesthetics over functionality).
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Old 06-20-2011, 01:33 PM   #4
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So are there "Romainian" AKM's and "Romanian G" AKM's?

And what are the differences other than the "G" marking and the black stock stripe?

I've also heard that WASR's are Romanian rifles deemed not good enough for G rifles...?
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Old 06-20-2011, 02:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch
So are there "Romainian" AKM's and "Romanian G" AKM's
Well, the "Romanian G" isn't a production rifle per se. People use G kits and build them into rifles, but they aren't a production rifle like the WASR....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch
I've also heard that WASR's are Romanian rifles deemed not good enough for G rifles...?
I could be wrong, but I believe this is an urban legend among the gun community. I've heard it before and I don't think it holds any truth...
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Old 06-20-2011, 03:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch
So are there "Romainian" AKM's and "Romanian G" AKM's?

And what are the differences other than the "G" marking and the black stock stripe?

I've also heard that WASR's are Romanian rifles deemed not good enough for G rifles...?
No, you are mistaking the early WASR for a Romy G.

Early WASRs were made from parts rejected for military service.
Today's WASRs are actually being built from retired Romanian military AKMs.


Romanian military AKs are all built the same, the only difference in the "G" model is the black stripe, donkey dong and a clipped sear (to keep it semi-auto).
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:22 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
No, you are mistaking the early WASR for a Romy G.

Early WASRs were made from parts rejected for military service.
Today's WASRs are actually being built from retired Romanian military AKMs.


Romanian military AKs are all built the same, the only difference in the "G" model is the black stripe, donkey dong and a clipped sear (to keep it semi-auto).

+1
To be honest, the modern era WASR (newer - current batch) are very nice rifles, my personal rifle is built nicer than my Bulgarian AK-74 which was made by Armory USA for Century, granted I reccomend inspecting in person any AK even an Arsenal before buying, but any ways there's a reason why both the Romy G kits and WASR's are popular
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:42 PM   #8
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My WASRs are studs...Extremely well made, accurate, and trouble free. As Rule said, if you are able to fondle a few and know what to look for you can walk away very satisfied. My WASRs are my goto rifles.
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:02 PM   #9
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It seems that as a rule, whatever is out now is junk, and five or so years down the road they will start to be considered "good stuff".

Chinese AK's were called junk in the early 90's. When I got into AK's in the late 90's, Romanian SAR's were considered junk, but now they have a good rep. I'm sure if and when WASRs ever stop coming in, they will go up in reputation as well.
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:28 PM   #10
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I saw somewhere (can't remember where) that the G kits were regarded as being better than the Romy issued kits because they weren't abused like the standard mil issued rifles.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
They are in no way inferior to any other communist factory AK (unless, of course, it's the opinion of one of these folks who rates aesthetics over functionality).
I'm getting the impression that lots of folks on this site prize aesthetics and matching numbers over functionality.
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePianoPlayer
I'm getting the impression that lots of folks on this site prize aesthetics and matching numbers over functionality.

That didn't originate here though. You'll find that in every hobby. Matched #s mean A LOT to some.
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery
That didn't originate here though. You'll find that in every hobby. Matched #s mean A LOT to some.
It's utterly ridiculous here, though, as the original rifle was chopped up, negating any collectibility.

Matching numbers Mosin-Nagant? Great
Matching numbers Lee-Enfield? Cool

Matching numbers in a parts gun (especially one w/o the original receiver AND barrel)?
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch
So are there "Romainian" AKM's and "Romanian G" AKM's?

And what are the differences other than the "G" marking and the black stock stripe?

I've also heard that WASR's are Romanian rifles deemed not good enough for G rifles...?
The Romanian rifles are looked down on, for the reasons stated above and because around 1980 Nicolae Ceaușescu, the leader of Romania had most of the knowledgeable armorers removed from their jobs, because (I believe) an insurrection led him to think they were all in on it. Immediately afterward he cut back on the budgets of the arms manufacturers. The result was that Romanian AKs produced after 1980 or thereabouts were made using worn out tools by inexperienced personnel whose poor work shows up on the gas blocks of our Romanian AKs. The (relatively) thin metal of the barrels has led some to suggest that rifles built on Romanian AKs *tend to be* less accurate.

This situation was compounded by Century Arms' terrible reputation for poorly rebuilding these Romanian AKs .

I have several rifles built on Romanian G kits. They are all fine rifles which can hit an orange clay at 300 yards.

As to the "G" it was simply used to designate rifles assigned to the Guards army. The Guards were citizens trained as conscripts to fight in the war against the west when the west invaded.

My Cuban wife tells stories about being a kid forced to endure the party-sponsored school trips to the range where the kids did all sorts of obstacle courses while firing their rifles. She said no one took it seriously. In fact the joke among the little girls was that when the Americans arrived, instead of reporting to their combat posts the girls would throw down their rifles and marry the Americans.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
It's utterly ridiculous here, though, as the original rifle was chopped up, negating any collectibility.

Matching numbers Mosin-Nagant? Great
Matching numbers Lee-Enfield? Cool

Matching numbers in a parts gun (especially one w/o the original receiver AND barrel)?


Well opinions are subjective, in fact this hobby is incredibly subjective.


For example, matched #s important to a collector? Need a foreign receiver? Then the best gun on the market is.......


WASR 10/63

Now you could've substituted any preban but being a subjective opinion I only considered what was important to me. Cost effectiveness, others might consider a myriad of other options.

It isn't ridiculous, it's a sign of a healthy and vigorous hobby. This great demand will either create great supply (Romy Gs & WASRs) or exceptionally high priced models (Arsenals and prebans).

Nothing is ridiculous, only reactionary to the great law of causality.
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Old 06-21-2011, 08:31 AM   #16
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+1.., whether shopping a vintage car or a firearm the matching number (parts original to the object) thing is a factor for most folks.
For a tire kicker type purchaser who does not know a disconnector from a windshield wiper..., checking numbers is like the old habit of kicking the tires on an car. Pretty meaningless functionally but important aesthetically and "something to look for" ..., and it does affect value in most cases
The fact that imported kit built AK variants do not have the original receiver and/or barrel does not seem to have slowed the hobby very much for builders, retailers, shooters, tacticals and collectors.

Romanian AK variants are just a model/type of AK.., eg., Ford, Chevy they may be the old Americam Motors Rambler & Jeep of the car world. But they run. The older models in particular 1963 thru late 1960's are nicely done for fit and finish and function. The 'G' models are a bit rougher and have the sporadic issues.
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Old 06-21-2011, 11:24 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePianoPlayer
I'm getting the impression that lots of folks on this site prize aesthetics and matching numbers over functionality.
I agree...I use my AK patterns a lot. Matching is not a concern but build is. However, if you can get almost all matching why not. Thus if you can fondle through some it is a good thing.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery
Well opinions are subjective, in fact this hobby is incredibly subjective.


For example, matched #s important to a collector? Need a foreign receiver? Then the best gun on the market is.......


WASR 10/63

The romy folder RPK is another one on an original receiver w/matching numbers too, all 6 of mine are anyway...They're probably worth more than a WASR because of the RPK's heavy duty features....As a collector myself I would get the RPK w/matching numbers on an original receiver instead of the WASR but the WASR is still a good investment too...

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Old 06-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
It's utterly ridiculous here, though, as the original rifle was chopped up, negating any collectibility.

Matching numbers Mosin-Nagant? Great
Matching numbers Lee-Enfield? Cool

Matching numbers in a parts gun (especially one w/o the original receiver AND barrel)?
There is AKM collectors. I know because I am one of them.
The correct receiver with the step down rails as well as matching numbers and original barrels are extremely desirable. Youíre correct that neither make any deference to the function or reliability. But neither does mismatched numbers or refinishing on other types of weapons. yet collectors of those weapons pay a premium for original untouched weapons. The difference is we work with what we have. Our government has decided that the importation of collector grade weapons is too dangerous for us lowly peons to possess. So as collectors we try to make them as original and authentic as legally possible. To claim that one of my all matching Gís is only as worth as much as a miss matched Romy G is Ridiculous.
Both these rifles are all matching numbers clean down to the NDS 1 receivers and the original hand guards.
Do you still think that one of these rifles should only be worth as much as the run of the mill Romy G?


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Old 06-21-2011, 05:43 PM   #20
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Well the absolute "bottom of the barrel" is a Mosin 91/30 which I think is an absolute steal of deal below $100 and almost all that I find have so many restamps trying to say matched #s is frivolous.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:02 PM   #21
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Blacksmith, is that a recoil pad on the rifle on the left? I would like something similar for my AK. May I ask where you found it?
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broberts62
Blacksmith, is that a recoil pad on the rifle on the left? I would like something similar for my AK. May I ask where you found it?
Thatís just the black paint they use on the G rifles. I imagine you could fit a good shotgun recoil pad to one. But this one I wanted to keep as original as legally possible.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:19 PM   #23
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Some of the problem with kit guns is "Who built it?"
"What receiver does it use?"
etc.



You can hand an all matching numbers kit to Hesse and end up with a construction worth less than the parts kit originally cost (if not worthless).

An "all matching numbers" kit built on a Ewbanks receiver isn't gonna be worth beans, IMHO.

Again, it's patently ridiculous to put a higher value in "all matching numbers" with an AK kit build.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacksmith
Thatís just the black paint they use on the G rifles. I imagine you could fit a good shotgun recoil pad to one. But this one I wanted to keep as original as legally possible.
Thanks. The wood looks really nice.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:33 PM   #25
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If you compare apples to apples, the logical choice would be picking the one with matched numbers.
Look at it this way, NDS no longer does custom serial numbers. So if you came across two identical well built rifles both on NDS 1 receivers. but one had a different #on the hand guard, boltí bolt carrier and even trunnion. and the other was a 100% matching. The seller would be a complete fool to sell them for the same price. Just like any other collectable firearm. There is a premium for matched numbers. Itís not ridiculous. Itís just logical.
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Old 06-21-2011, 09:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broberts62
Thanks. The wood looks really nice.
Thanks for the compliment.
The only thing I refinished on that rifle was the receiver, top cover and selector leaver. The rest is 100% original Romanian finish.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:39 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomfoolery
Well the absolute "bottom of the barrel" is a Mosin 91/30 which I think is an absolute steal of deal below $100 and almost all that I find have so many restamps trying to say matched #s is frivolous.
with all respect I've never seen a bottom barrel rifle shoot 5 rnds in an inch groups @ 100 yards like both of mine, they're not "bottom barrel" the market's flooded, bottom barrel would be a little break action single shot or a junkie little Springfield single shot 22
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
An "all matching numbers" kit built on a Ewbanks receiver isn't gonna be worth beans, IMHO.

I have one built on a Ewbanks. Itís a 100% hardened and a very good reliable receiver.
Did you have some type of problem with them?
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacksmith
I have one built on a Ewbanks. Itís a 100% hardened and a very good reliable receiver.
Did you or someone in the supply chain "100% harden" it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacksmith
Did you have some type of problem with them?
Use the search. That last question has been answered a few hundred times.
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
Did you or someone in the supply chain "100% harden" it?

Use the search. That last question has been answered a few hundred times.
The search is too broad.
Thousands of threads contain Ewbank. Can you name something specific?
All the Ewbank receivers were hardened by Ewbank. To the best of my knowledge, they never released any that were not 100% hardened. They were a little tougher to build on, and the oxidation from their hardening process made them tough to finish. But when the rifle was complete, it was one tough and durable weapon.
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:00 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacksmith
The search is too broad.
Thousands of threads contain Ewbank. Can you name something specific?
All the Ewbank receivers were hardened by Ewbank. To the best of my knowledge, they never released any that were not 100% hardened. They were a little tougher to build on, and the oxidation from their hardening process made them tough to finish. But when the rifle was complete, it was one tough and durable weapon.
Your knowledge is lacking.

There have been numerous reports of bad heat treatment, ranging from "none" to "the whole receiver is twisted beyond usability due to whatever HT method was used".

I have a Ewbanks receiver here I show to folks that's got a very noticeable twist in it.
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth
Your knowledge is lacking.

There have been numerous reports of bad heat treatment, ranging from "none" to "the whole receiver is twisted beyond usability due to whatever HT method was used".

I have a Ewbanks receiver here I show to folks that's got a very noticeable twist in it.
I built a total of about 8 on Ewbank receivers.
They all had slight twist, but they were all workable. As far as my knowledge lacking. I remember the builds and the challenges that they presented just fine. over the years, Those 8 rifles migrated to friends and family. I think I can safely say that between all of us a combined total of at least 25,000 rounds have been fired. and not one of them has had any issues or repairs. If the warpage scares you, by all means donít attempt the build. But I assure you that many have had successful builds on those receivers. As for heat treating inconsistencies? I donít think that is possible. A heat treating oven is very consistent.


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Old 06-22-2011, 10:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule7.62
with all respect I've never seen a bottom barrel rifle shoot 5 rnds in an inch groups @ 100 yards like both of mine, they're not "bottom barrel" the market's flooded, bottom barrel would be a little break action single shot or a junkie little Springfield single shot 22

Proving my point exactly. The 91/30 is about as cheap as you can get in a legitimate rifle and it's a bargain. The connection I was making is that price doesn't always reflect value.

I recently claimed my new 75 dated WASR is built as tight as any rifle I have ever held. I'll stand by that claim too. It is a "bottom of the barrel" AK and you couldn't pry it out of my hands for a sight unseen Arsenal.
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:08 PM   #34
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i think from what ive heard its actually just the wasr 10's that were designed for 10 round single stack that some folks complained
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Old 06-23-2011, 06:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
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i think from what ive heard its actually just the wasr 10's that were designed for 10 round single stack that some folks complained
To bring you up to speed, all WASRs enter this country in single-stack configuration.

This is due to our "only sporting guns can be imported" regulations.

They're all "designed for 10 round single stack" magazines, and Century hogs out the magwells and makes them 922r compliant.
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