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Old 02-07-2011, 06:06 PM   #1
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Lightbulb Potential Poly PSL magazines?

It seems that the availability of PSL magazines is somewhat scarce and the quality of the ones you can find are hit or miss. Aftermarket choices are basically nonexistent and capacity is limited to 10 rounds (unless you are one of the few who bought early imports or have a lot of extra money to blow).

I would like gauge the amount of interest in the community to see if making an aftermarket magazine solution is worth while. I have not planned anything out yet, but if there is positive feedback I would like to possibly deliver a product.

I would like to make a 5 round magazine available, as well as standard 10 rounders and perhaps even an undetermined high capacity. I also would want to retain the bolt hold open function of the follower. These would be made of some sort of polymer material and may sell in the $30 range.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. I am not 100% sure I can make anything happen, like I said for now I am looking to see how many people are interested.
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:57 PM   #2
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I would focus on 20's. 10's are available, so probably won't be a hot seller unless cheap. Might be some interest in 5 for hunting in some states as well. Make a quality 20 rounder that feeds and has a BHO, price it around $29.00 and you won't have any problems selling them IMO.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnout
I would focus on 20's. 10's are available, so probably won't be a hot seller unless cheap. Might be some interest in 5 for hunting in some states as well. Make a quality 20 rounder that feeds and has a BHO, price it around $29.00 and you won't have any problems selling them IMO.
This would be it.
20'S WILL BE WHERE ITS AT!

30's would be too heavy I think.
I dont think you would sell much of the 5 rounders though this is just mho.
And we are a picky bunch of a**holes so I would seriously work out the bugs before you start selling them.

I say this because of two people who come to mind.

1)A guy made a mag that came apart when you drop it and so the town folk took him apart.
I will have to recheck that thread on the other board to see what came of that,and the mag wasnt cheap by ak standards.

2)was a guy who made an after market mag for the yugo tokarevs.
On another board a thread was started by a "guy who knew a guy who new someone who bought a yugo mag that failed to work".
Anyways,no one who put their imput on that thread had anything bad to say about the mag itself,just if the guy who makes them gives money to the forum....?WTF?
Anyways...I got a couple of the guys mags and they work fine and over all quality control is 10 out of 10.
IF you have a problem the guy will go WAAAAAAAYYYY out of his way to make you happy.
Above and beyond what anyone else will do.
Good luck and I will be one of the first to try out a 20 rounder.
If they work good I will stock up on some.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:57 PM   #4
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A twenty would be a great Idea. 30 would be to long and buly in my opinion. I wouldnt waste time with a 5. You can just block a ten.. Just my 2cents.. Good luck in your verture.
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:23 PM   #5
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I would by 20's. 30 would be too heavy and protrude to much
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:33 PM   #6
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I would buy a few 20 rounders for sure. The 10 rounders quality is poor and the metal on the mags is too thin and rusts way too easily. Surprised no one else has developed mags.
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:44 PM   #7
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I hate to be the one to sounds like a “wet blanket”, but I just don’t see there being enough of a market for PSL magazines to be made as reproductions at this point.

Polymer magazines tend to come out for guns with HIGH ownership levels – like the AR-15, AK-47, and Mini-14. The truth is that there just aren’t enough people in the world that know how freaking cool the PSL is let alone actually owns one. One of the fellows that I got spooled up on the PSL showed it to his son-in-law when he got back from Iraq and he said that the kid turned white as a sheet when he saw it…

Bottom line is that it’s going to take shitloads of demand before there’s any company that will produce an affordable polymer mag for the PSL – but Hey! It’s always fun to dream about cool ideas.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:41 PM   #8
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Yeah, i do agree with slick in that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of psl owners to justify tooling up to make mags. But, I do like the idea of a 5 round mag. It would be great to get a few of those for my testing my hand loads.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:42 AM   #9
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No interest in a 5 or a 10 but a 20 sounds good. I would buy those.

I might buy 1 30 but just for grins. You need to be able to go prone and remain hidden while taking a shot. You could probably do that with a 20.

I actually have a 5 someone was selling. Made from a 10. Nice mag.

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Old 02-08-2011, 10:52 AM   #10
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I would make 10's and 20's. I would purchase 5 10 rounders and 3 20 rounders today if they were affordable. Would have to be cheaper though. You can ge ta good condition metal mag for 18-25 bucks if you know where to look online
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:58 PM   #11
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Default DONT MAKE A HIGH-CAP!

Hello jjk1224: Please don't make a high capacity magazine for the PSL!

The ATF has told PSL manufacturers, if you make a high-cap mag for the PSL or put a folding stock on the rifle they would take away its "sporting rifle" status.

Anyways, my ex-boss did the research for a polymer 5, 10, 20, and 30 round magazine which would be injection molded from glass filled nylon and use the standard PSL metal mag followers(compatible with Bolt hold open).

He has the CAD-files/specs ready to put the 10 and 20 rounders into production, but doesn't want to make high-caps due to the risk of the PSL loosing sporting status.

The 10 round steel mags go around $20-$25 retail. If you wanted to injection mold 10 rounders, and undercut the steel ones the profit margin wouldn't be that much greater than if you just became a century arms dealer and sold the steel magazines. Mainly because you wouldn't incur the costs for plastic molds(estimated at $13K+). But if you think the demand is great enough for polymer mags, and you can sell them cheap enough, it may pay off.

If you think there is a demand for 5 round magazines, you could buy 10 rounders and cut them in half and reweld them like apachearms.com has on their website. But maybe if the demand was great enough, it would pay off the buy the plastic molds for the 5 rounder and start making them. But if the demand is primarily for hunters, who have mag size restrictions, wouldn't it just to be cheaper to buy the 10 rounder for dealer cost, then weld a rod/plate into the mag floor so it can only hold 5 rounds? That would be cheaper than cutting/rewelding or making plastic ones. Unless, again, if the market is big enough to pay off the plastic mold costs.

But anyways, I'm pretty sure Century Arms and TGI have also been down this path and veered the same direction.

Last edited by combat_master; 02-08-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:35 PM   #12
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I would love some poly 20's. Hell if someone started modifying bren or the other ones (can't remember) I'd buy a few of them.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:46 PM   #13
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Thank you for all of the feedback everyone!
Combat master, I am glad you have pointed this information out to me. When I get home I am going to research the subject further.
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:12 PM   #14
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FWIW, I did notice that Tapco is now making polymer magazines for the Golani / Galil rifles and also AK-74’s.

Unfortunately, I don’t know what the “industry threshold” is for a company to anticipate the product to be profitable. If we are indeed seeing a drop in the number of PSL rifle kits (at this time), I wouldn’t expect to ever see a polymer magazine. However, if PSL kits continue to be imported for years to come, then it could be quite possible that we could see some sort of synthetic magazine later on down the road.

I believe that some of the driving criteria for production of an aftermarket magazine would be pressed by a shortage of factory originals. Out of all of the various guns available, PSL’s seem to have enjoyed a decent supply of spare factory magazines.

If nothing else, I’d like to see a company rebuild & repair questionable “factory” magazines and refurbish them using a brand new spring. It seems that many people are OK with buying a PSL magazine with some light rust for a steep discount – but a magazine in such condition has a much higher possibility of having a spring that was compromised by corrosion as well. A replacement spring could well breath new life into magazine that were worth very little to start with.

The is all simply conjecture on my behalf (nothing I know for a fact) – by drawing on my experience with other similar platforms.
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Old 02-08-2011, 05:56 PM   #15
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To jjk1224: If you want some more info on it you can contact combloc armament, and they will probably fill you in with a lot more detail than I can. Also, may be worthwhile sending the ATF hq another letter as their policy might change(doubt it).


To Slick: Very true about the industry threshold depending on if the rifle will ever come in again. I guess we'll find out in due time.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:16 PM   #16
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How have the manufacturers of the 20 and 30 round Saiga magazines affected the importation of Saigas, if at all?
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg
How have the manufacturers of the 20 and 30 round Saiga magazines affected the importation of Saigas, if at all?
That's what I was wondering too. The manufacturers should send another letter to the ATF asking what makes the PSL special.

EDIT: THE SAIGAS HAVE BEEN AFFECTED. Plus a little bird told me no more Saigas have been imported for a while.

Read this:
----------------------------
When administrative agencies change their rules, they usually have to allow public comment. BATFE is reconsidering whether the Saiga-12 and similar shotguns are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Under current law, this determines whether each particular model can legally be imported.

This topic should be of particular interest to 3-Gun competitors. If BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test, then they can be banned for importation. That means either they won't be available, or they'll cost a lot more because they won't be bringing new ones in.

In the past, BATFE has only considered this question about once every decade. If you care about this, please submit official comments to the agency. You can submit them by fax or email. I believe a professional, well-drafted fax would be the most persuasive, but every positive comment helps.

Attached is a letter I sent regarding this issue. Feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Sean P. Healy
Attorney at Law
--------------------------------------

They warned them, but nope they had to go and put drums, folding stocks, and SBS on the Saigas. This is in the making for a while. This same thing can happen to the PSL and similar guns.

Last edited by combat_master; 02-08-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:19 PM   #18
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Yeah.
some stronger springs to rebuild mags would be good too.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:30 PM   #19
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Combat, I too have sources that have been telling me about a possible ban of saga importation. For now I am going to hold off on trying to produce any sort of high capacity magazine, but I think I am still going to have a friend design me a concept just for shits and giggles. Low/standard capacity is still in question and slick, you have a good point and I agree with your comment about industrial supply and demand, however I dont want to be that guy with an idea who never took action.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjk1224
Combat, I too have sources that have been telling me about a possible ban of saga importation. For now I am going to hold off on trying to produce any sort of high capacity magazine, but I think I am still going to have a friend design me a concept just for shits and giggles. Low/standard capacity is still in question and slick, you have a good point and I agree with your comment about industrial supply and demand, however I dont want to be that guy with an idea who never took action.
Ya I don't think there is a problem with making concept models or prototypes even of the high caps. Combloc has samples of all the polymer magazines which they just CNC cut out of ABS.


I think it may be worth a shot if you can make the low-cap mags retail under $15. But keep in mind if you want to do some big volume(which you will need to), a distributor/dealer also need to make their cut.
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:55 PM   #21
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Not wanting to be a wet blanket either, but these are a couple of problems as I see them.

A problem is if a 20 round mag was available the folks that have it would shoot the 20 rounds as quick as they can. This combined with the thin barrel will result from what little accuracy they have going right out the window.

Personally I would LOVE a good polymer mag for the PSL, but I have yet to see ANY AK based poly mag made in the US that is worth whatever price charged for them. One only has to look at the Promags, Crapcos, and PALM mags to see what failures they are.

'IF', and that is a big if, a QUALITY poly mag in a 10 or 20 round capacity could be brought to the market for $30 or UNDER I would buy a couple. I say a couple as I already have 10+ mags for each of my PSL's, including the one I had built with its folding ACE stock.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:37 AM   #22
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I too think higher capacity isn't as much a concern with the PSL considering the barrel heating issues. When I got to the range, I don't even load full magazines to force myself to allow for cooling time.

I'd buy poly 5 or 10 round magazines if they were cheap, reliable, and available. I'd buy some 20-rd magazines just to have, though I doubt they'd see too much use.
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:58 AM   #23
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I guess I'm one of the few who would buy a 5 round mag if availible. HA!

Why is a 20 rounder so desirable? After 5 rounds the thin barrel starts to water hose rounds anyway.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuclear Cowboy
Why is a 20 rounder so desirable?
Because it would look so F-ing cool - not to mention only having to reload half as often when shooting off-hand. I think everyone knows the 10-rounder is the deal for prone shooting. A 5-rounder would be desirable for people wanting to hunt where laws limit you to a 5-round magazine.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:18 AM   #25
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The PSL is considered a "sporting rifle" and is exempt from 922r import restrictions. Marketing a >10 round magazine could very well alter that.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcom
The PSL is considered a "sporting rifle" and is exempt from 922r import restrictions. Marketing a >10 round magazine could very well alter that.

Maybe not . . . at least a couple companies have marketed high capacity magazines for my Saiga S-308, and the Saiga is still importable. I don't know if the existence of high capacity magazines with be a future problem or not.

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Old 04-15-2011, 11:55 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
Maybe not . . . at least a couple companies have marketed high capacity magazines for my Saiga S-308, and the Saiga is still importable. I don't know if the existence of high capacity magazines with be a future problem or not.

Larry
ATF is looking to change it's sporting status too. I'll try to find the letter on it, but so far I think it's only a rumor.
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:30 PM   #28
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Saigas in their basic imported design escape 922r because they are considered "sporting." No pistol grips, no collapsible/folding stocks, no bayo lugs, no threaded barrels, and a detachable mag not more than 10 rounds. Add to that they are NOT semi auto copies of a machine gun. Granted, lots of folks make them look AK-ish AFTER importation. Even with a commercially available hi cap mag, there are so many other sporting features on them that the mag alone may not be enough to make it into a "military configuration" and thus non-sporting.

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Old 04-16-2011, 04:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcom
Even with a commercially available hi cap mag, there are so many other sporting features on them that the mag alone may not be enough to make it into a "military configuration" and thus non-sporting.
ATF's 1998 study says that the magazine alone is enough to make a rifle non-sporting. However, up till now Saigas have been safe because they don't have a factory high capacity magazine. Who knows what's in store for the future, but for now they're importable.

Larry

PS: I was "splicing" two Saiga factory magazines into one high capacity one for my converted S-308's long before the commercial high caps became available. I imagine that with the proper methods any poly mag could be "spliced".
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
ATF's 1998 study says that the magazine alone is enough to make a rifle non-sporting. However, up till now Saigas have been safe because they don't have a factory high capacity magazine. Who knows what's in store for the future, but for now they're importable.

Larry

PS: I was "splicing" two Saiga factory magazines into one high capacity one for my converted S-308's long before the commercial high caps became available. I imagine that with the proper methods any poly mag could be "spliced".
Here is the link to the newest JAN. 2011 study on the Saiga and other "sporting shotguns" it will tell you why it's banned. My ex-boss talked to the BATFE panel that made the decision and is a walking encyclopedia about the subject:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...n-shotguns.pdf

Anyways, even though Izhmash doesn't make a high-cap importable mag for the Saiga-12, there is one in the USA for it(drum).

I won't say any more because I've signed an NDA with 2 companies, but read the document and infer what is going on. And yes, the saiga rifles are a whole different thing, so you are correct.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:48 AM   #31
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20's, make 20's!! I would buy a dozen, at least, 2 to test and try to kill and another ten if they lived, maybe more, especially if I get another PSL.
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Old 04-18-2011, 04:46 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg
How have the manufacturers of the 20 and 30 round Saiga magazines affected the importation of Saigas, if at all?

Reading the rules carefully, the availability of high capacity commercial magazines doesn't have any effect. Rifles cannot be imported with magazines over 10 rounds or be able to accept MILITARY magazines designed to hold more than 10 rounds. Aftermarket or converted magazines available in the US do not change the import status of the rifles.
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:05 AM   #33
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Does anyone think this is going to happen? Id like to just get some basic 10s
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:03 PM   #34
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Everybody is talking about a 20, what about a 15-rounder? I would think that a 20 would just look huge, but maybe not.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:43 PM   #35
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How about a 100 round drum.
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