Converting the Zastava PAP

[LESchwartz]

I'm thinking of buying a Zastava PAP any converting it to the military configuration. I'm thinking that this would involve the following:

1) Muzzle threads: This should be easy with a tap and TAT.

2) Bayonet mount: I'll probably skip this, but I might to buy a new military style FSB.

3) Butt stock and pistol grip. Indications are that a standard AK pistol grip will work just fine. The rear of the receiver is the Yugo style w/ an added slant cut, so it looks custom wood -- no big deal considering.

4) Trigger guard will likely need to be removed and re-riveted in order swap out the non-standard selector stop and use a US-made FCG.

5) Open up the mag well for double stack mags. The receiver has two plates spot welded to the inside to prevent mag wobble -- these should be fairly easy to remove. But I worry about the bolt and carrier being too narrow, as well as the trunnion needing modifications. Not to mention there may be a need to install a bullet guide -- like when converting Saigas.

The mag well seems to be the biggest issue: I would appreciate hearing from anyone who's attempted this conversion. Alternatively, if you have a link to information on this, please post it.

thanks in advance,

Larry

PS: If folks could, let's please try to keep this thread gunsmithing related for use a resource for others

PPS: Here are some photos of this animal:

[LESchwartz]

BTW here are some photos of a standard Yugo M70 bolt, carrier and trunnion:

[LuzRD]

i havent looked inside of a PAP yet. is the bolt/carrier narrower? if so can it just be replaced with a standard M70 set?

i was under the impression that onther than making the rifle "less evil" (threads, mag cap, bayo lugs...) it was otherwise the same as an M70

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by LuzRD

i havent looked inside of a PAP yet. is the bolt/carrier narrower? if so can it just be replaced with a standard M70 set?

i was under the impression that onther than making the rifle "less evil" (threads, mag cap, bayo lugs...) it was otherwise the same as an M70

I've heard rumors that the bolt and carriers are narrower on some "single stack" AK's. But I've never owned a single stack, so I don't know for sure. I took the measurements and added photos of the M70 parts hoping that a PAP owner would compare the measurements.

However, if the bolt and carrier on the PAP is narrower than the standard M70, swapping them would be a significant cost adder.

Larry

[Etek]

If the PAP has narrower parts than any other single stack AK they are idiots.

Larry, try dropping in an AK carrer and bolt.

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by Etek

If the PAP has narrower parts than any other single stack AK they are idiots.

Larry, try dropping in an AK carrer and bolt.

I haven't yet purchased the PAP . . . I'm hoping someone who does stops by this thread.

Larry

[lsmurphy]

Larry,



At the time they first came out I wanted one, thought it would be a great rifle to convert. I never did get one though so I don't have any experience with it.



If what you say is true about the narrow bolt....that's a deal breaker there....can't imagine that to be true though??????why?



This conversion aside, do you have a fighting tool ready?


Scott

[LuzRD]

Originally Posted by LESchwartz

I've heard rumors that the bolt and carriers are narrower on some "single stack" AK's. But I've never owned a single stack, so I don't know for sure. I took the measurements and added photos of the M70 parts hoping that a PAP owner would compare the measurements.

However, if the bolt and carrier on the PAP is narrower than the standard M70, swapping them would be a significant cost adder.

Larry

even if that were the case (ive never heard of it, but that means nothing hahaha), i imagine a file would fix that quick enough

the two things that were keeping me from pursuing one of these bad larry's was the slant cut, and not understanding what it would take to open up the magwell.

[me_man]

I'm also interested to see if anyone has done one of these. Someone must have by now. I too considered it when they first came out. For some reason I decided not to pursue it. I can't remember why though. Don't quote me on this but it seems like it had something to do with the front trunnion... something like the trunnion was too narrow where the front of the mag latchs in to accept double stack mags. I'm sure this has been discussed before though. I suggest you search threads with the word PAP.. also check the "other" akforums..I know I've seen this discussed before.
Ironwood designs should be able to make you up a nice stock set no sweat. That would help with the parts count as well.

[me_man]

I knew I'd seen this discussed. Check these out...
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...?f=21&t=114900
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...p?f=21&t=37193
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...4589&hilit=pap

[junkmanted]

im not one to convert a factory gun i do have a pap and other ak's if you need me to see if parts will interchange let me know.
I do know the single stack bolts are cut down on WASR'S to pass through the mags so i would assume the pap is the same.

this is to nice to mess with

[FloridaAKM]

I have a friend who did the conversion after he bought it & it required replacing the bolt with a standard M70 bolt to feed properly from the double stack mag. The rear of the trunion was Tig'ed up with small plates to return it to a square back configuration. It shoots fine with no FTF or FTE problems, but to me that is a lot of work for a conversion! OTOH it is a factory new gun un converted!

[me_man]

Wow...the wood is gorgeous. Sure beats the hell out of the plastic stocks.. but I really dislike thumbhole stocks.

[me_man]

Originally Posted by junkmanted

im not one to convert a factory gun i do have a pap and other ak's if you need me to see if parts will interchange let me know.
I do know the single stack bolts are cut down on WASR'S to pass through the mags so i would assume the pap is the same.

this is to nice to mess with

Will the front of a double stack mag lock into the rear of the front trunnion if the mag well opening is widened?

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by me_man

I knew I'd seen this discussed. Check these out...
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...?f=21&t=114900
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...p?f=21&t=37193
http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/vie...4589&hilit=pap

Thank's for the links. I hadn't seen those before, but hard tech data is still sketchy even after reviewing those threads. My hopes for this thread are:

1) PAP bolt and carrier measurements.

2) Will the front trunnion need work to lock in a double stack?

3) Angle / measurements of the slant cut so I can start thinking about fabricating a filler piece

[LuzRD]

1) FloridaAKM, did your friend replace the carrier or just the bolt? can you get more details from him about his conversion?

2) im also curious

3) from http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58314 ...not a measurement but at least its a close up (thanks Ted)

Originally Posted by junkmanted

in the post that I bought the gun someone posted a picture with the stock off of there gun looks like there's a wood screw going though the pistol grip mount

theres no hole on the bottom of my grip

[junkmanted]

Originally Posted by me_man

Will the front of a double stack mag lock into the rear of the front trunnion if the mag well opening is widened?

Some WASR single stack mags do fit and work in my PAP so I would say yes that the double stack mag will fit when opened

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by junkmanted

my PAP

Can you post some measurements of the bolt and carrier and the portion of the trunnion where the mag locks in?

thanks,

Larry

[junkmanted]

I'm not sure of the measurments you need but heres some pictures of the PAP and my Yugo RPK side by side I can tell you the bolt carriers interchange the PAP bolt didnt close in the RPK but the PAP carrier with the Yugo bolt did close fine,, and the PAP bolt and carrier closed in the RPK.
if you need better pics let me know my camera is a cheap one

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by junkmanted

I'm not sure of the measurments you need

Thanks for the pics! As for the measurements I'm looking for, see the second post: The bottom of the bolt (open), bottom of the bolt carrier (narrowest part), and the portion of the trunnion the mag fits into.

Larry

[junkmanted]

ok i need to get a battery for my Digital Caliper
give me a day

[chief4guns]

Where did that wood come from It's bootiful!!! Chief

[POTI]

PAP come with that nice wood

[Rob_Photo]

Not sure if these will help any, but here's good quality photos of all the parts of the PAP.

http://robenglish.com/Zastava_PAP_web/index.htm

[Rob_Photo]

Also if you do purchase a PAP, take a look at this too,

http://www.robenglish.com/Zastava_PA..._Mod/index.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y5fCOvHKzg

[LESchwartz]

I picked up some single stack mags today. It's apparent that PAP bolt and carrier would have be substantially narrower that an M-70. At least 0.075" to 0.100" narrower. I doubt the PAP bolt would feed double-stack magazines reliably. But only time will tell.

Larry

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by Dan via email to LESchwartz

I was on the Akfiles forum, looking over your Zastava PAP topic. http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70004
I registered on the AKfiles forum the 1st of July, but for some reason still can't post or reply.

I have a New PAP that I had sent of to a Gunsmith to be converted for double stack mags, and had the barrel threaded for a Compensator( 14x1 LH)

It is on it's way back to me now via Fedex. It should be delivered today.

I wish I could post this information on the AKfiles forum, but no luck yet.
I have e-mailed the mods repeatedly with no answer back..

Edit: Fedex just delivered it.

The mag well mod was done very well. The trunion was milled out and re-riveted to clear the double stack magazine.
I tried 3 different types of magazines, 2 steel Hungarian, 1 Chinese spineless and a Tapco. All lock in solid, no wiggle.
Slant comp. threads on perfect. M70 pistol grip and wood stock fit fine. ( angle on the back of the reciever sucks tho)

Problem # 1: Let bolt go, will not feed rounds. Round tip is hitting on a ledge on the trunion.
Dremeled a small feed ramp into the ledge. Bullet tip will now slide over the ledge and go toward chamber.
Problem, # 2: The bolt wants to jump over the round. If I ride the bolt forward slowly, it will chamber.
Side of the bullet is also hitting on part of the trunion. Need to dremel it back farther.

I measured the PAP bolt.

If you reference your posted topic on AKfiles, look at the pictures of the bolt measurements for the M70 bolt. Front of bolt : 0.430" rear: 0.395"
The PAP bolt measures: Front: 0.338" rear: 0.395"
So you can see, the PAP bolt is way narrower in the front to slide through a single stack mag.

I'm going to snag a bolt tomorrow from the local funshops M70ab2 slabside and try it in the PAP carrier and see what happens.

Hopefully it will work.

Dan

Someone else's experience with a PAP conversion.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Is the serial number on the sheet metal? If the trunnion requires being removed to machine it you could just replace it with a regular Yugo trunnion. The pistol grip mount could be replaced by riveting a new one in place. you could even replace the rear trunnion with a fixed stock one. You could use the receiver as a guide to build an AK-Builder flat. I was thinking of buying one for barrel and parts.

[LESchwartz]

Originally Posted by allesennogwat

you could even replace the rear trunnion with a fixed stock one. You could use the receiver as a guide to build an AK-Builder flat. I was thinking of buying one for barrel and parts.

I thinkn the rear trunnion is already the Yugo fixed stock style, the only issue is the slant cut, which I figured I could fill in with a piece of sheet metal.

As for the buying one for the barrel and parts: I figure a new Yugo barrel and receiver would go for at least that as a parts kit.

Larry

[allesennogwat]

Originally Posted by LESchwartz

I thinkn the rear trunnion is already the Yugo fixed stock style, the only issue is the slant cut, which I figured I could fill in with a piece of sheet metal.

As for the buying one for the barrel and parts: I figure a new Yugo barrel and receiver would go for at least that as a parts kit.

Larry

I think the lower rear of the trunnion the supports the stock is missing. It may not matter. I''m not sure it is cut away but the fixed stock fits into the rear trunnion as well as having the long through bolt hold it.

[allesennogwat]

Even for a ten round rifle it seems a good price and includes the scope rail. Not sure the plastic mags would hold up but as long as other steel mags work it shouldn't be a problem.

[Force]

Finally able to post !

Couldn't post before so I emailed Larry my findings on the PAP conversion.
( See post #27 above)

Update on my PAP conversion:

7/23/10
Success!

Dremeled/beveled all the way across the bullet guide.

It now seems to feed very well !

Hand cycled 15 (dummy) rounds through it as fast as I could yank the charging handle.
Worked perfect.

Test firing tomorrow after work!

7/24/10
Test fired yesterday.
Functioned perfect with the plastic Tapco mags.
They fit tight, no wobble or movement at all.
Fired 60 rounds of wolf lacquered and poly FMJ no problems.
Rapid and slowfire , functioned perfect.

I tried 2 Hungarian metal mags, wouldn't feed.
Didn't have the patience to mess with them anymore.

Trigger is kinda sticky and doesn't want to reset every time.
I had to barely bump it forward from time to time. ( I'll throw in a Tapco G2 and see if that fixes it)

Over all I am very happy with the double stack mod ( now that I have it functioning)

The PAP bolt ended up working fine. Strips from the double stack mags perfect.
I could have dremeled a little more on the bullet guide and got the M70 bolt to work, maybe.
I wasn't sure if the M70 bolt would lock up right, or head space properly tho. Original PAP bolt is working fine, so I left it at that.

Next will be the Ace adapter and FTS stock, and maybe a Tech sight.( or a ultimak and red dot)
Still looking for an M70 buttpad for the wood stock also. May just have to throw one on from a Yugo SKS to make do.

Magwell opened up

M70 pistol grip/no stock

M70 stock from IWD wood pile ( needs a pad)

Slant comp on threaded barrel

[tubbs200803]

I've been reading a lot on this before I decided to go ahead with my conversion, just joined akfiles and this will be my very first post. First I'll say I cut, fiberglassed, bondo'd, ground and completely reshaped the original thumbhole stock into the complete shape of an actual ak47 stock! A lot of work but it looks great. A coat of paint on the stock and a new romy P/G and it feels legit. (rustoleum textured paint matches the look and feel of the original synthetic) I had the magwell opened up by a great machinist for $30 that's right $30. The metal "tabs" were trouble but a die grinder with 2" wheel solved that.

The front trunnion was needless to say a severe b***h. It didn't need to be milled much wider but deeper was definetly needed to get the mag in.

HOW TO MAKE THE HUNGARIAN MAGS WORK!!!

Once all the metal work was said and don't I got the rifle home and tried to feed a couple dummy rounds. Jam, jam, jam, jam. I took a look back here and saw that Hungarian mags WILL NOT WORK. *forehead slap* after a little look I found the problem the rounds don't sit high enough to be stripped by the narrow short bolt. A little dremel work on the underside of the feed lips (where the rounds make contact with the lips) and it worked perfect. Tried the dummy rounds again, feed, eject, feed, eject.

I will be posting pictures of this beautiful creation when I can or you can message me for any details on the conversion or include an email address and I'll send some pictures of it.

Thanks for your help akfiles users!!! Couldn't have done it without you,

Tubbs200803

[goshen85]

Can someone show a pic of what your bullet guide looks like when you messed with it to fix the feeding problem?

[uncle remus]

mine should be back from guns northwest in a few days. I will post pics when it gets back and tell you how it works. Matt had me send a standard bolt with the pap he didn't specify a m70 bolt.