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Old 03-24-2004, 12:16 PM   #1
alexit
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Default Definitive Template?

I have three templates from various boards/web sites. None of them match the laser cut flat. In two cases its the trigger holes being closer to the bottom of the reciever than the lasercut.

I am sure that the people selling flats have "proprietary" dimensions, but what tolerance can the AK have and still function? I mean, some of the templates are .2" off from one another...

Also, the lower rails are totally different shapes! Am I gonna have to file the angle of the left rail .125" different?

Thanks,
Alex
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:05 PM   #2
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Every dimension is based on the front trunion, so you should be OK so long as the measurements of the template are correct. You'll need to measure with a caliper to be sure your template is "correct". I wouldn't rely solely on the template in case the printout you made is larger/smaller than the original. Check the width, the middle section should be 1.25" internally. 1.2" height at the front, 1.7" height at the rear.

IMHO the most accurate template out there is the DXF template. Printing correctly is the bugger for that template, since most printers resize it slightly. I suppose you could go to the copier and enlarge the template if you needed.

I have measured both my Norinco NHM-91 and Vulcan post-ban '74 against this template, and they both are spot-on for the side & lower sections. Trunion rivets are obviously a question but that's the same for any of the templates.

My template collection is here:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/templates.htm

hth,
- Jerry
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Old 03-24-2004, 06:00 PM   #3
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I printed them 1:1 scale on a plotter at work and compared the flat with a light table. The DXF is the best, but those two holes are still off. I am wondering what the stubs of my kit will look like, if I can take any measurements from that to check before I get too far...

Thanks for confirming. I will strive to match the DXF template for my bending jig.

Alex
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:34 AM   #4
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No problem - glad I could be of assistance!

Remember you may still need to do some hand-fitting even with the templates.

I wanted to mention that acearms.com has a new template which I have not downloaded yet... been meaning to do so. Pretty sure this is what 7.62x39/SD used in his "how to build from an ace blank" thread that they put on their how-to website. Lots of people have been ordering from Ace lately & no one has mentioned any glaring problems with Ace's templates! I stopped looking when I measured the DXF template so I can't say how Ace's templates compare.

Keep in mind the AK assembly method has an inherint problem in that the "template" method can't be used 100% of the time for the front trunions, because the location of the rivet holes is NOT a simple "drill here" exercise. The nature of assembly of the receiver to the front trunion requires drilling at the time of assembly, so as to accommodate any slight variations introduced from the sheet metal bending process from part to part. That's how the factory does it and so when a factory "locks" their method down, it may be slightly off from what another factory in another country uses, thus the slight variations.

Therefore its not like a machined receiver or even an AR receiver. But then again that's what makes AK assembly fun!

- Jerry
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:36 AM   #5
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Forgot to mention MY source for these - sorry - I have collected most of these from chasing links here-and-there that others have posted. Roderus has already collected most of these here:


http://home.mcihispeed.net/~neil-new...le_listing.htm

hth,
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:02 PM   #6
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If anyone knows the first source of these templates Jen will put them on the AKFiles server. If not, she'd rather not store them, so we'll leave the links here for anyone who needs them. Here's another one that might be helpful to someone with an underfolder. The Chinese are the same, I believe. (It's been a long time since I looked at one.)

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK...nderfolder.jpg

Thanks again to hcpookie for his site.
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Old 04-07-2004, 02:51 PM   #7
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Try this one.
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=727
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:03 PM   #8
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Found another underfolder stock diagram on the Krinkov website:

http://www.the-top.com/krink/diags/underfoldingdiag.jpg

Hrm for some reason their main site "aks-74u.com" doesn't work for me... have to use this: http://www.the-top.com/krink/

Copying to my template website - also making enlargement!
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Old 03-12-2005, 08:38 PM   #9
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The Ace Arms template is very good, but thier site has not been working for me and I suspect they may have gone belly up. I tried the gunco template, but when I printed it out it came out undersized. I found the Ace template on the Pookie's Gun Stuff web site. It printed out perfectly for me, and the printing is a lot easier to read than the gunco template. Just make sure when you print it out, the reciever measures 10.25" long. Pookie also has a great AK build tutorial.

Template:
http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK...mplate_Ace.pdf

AK Build Tutorial:
http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/ak.htm, click "Construction" button for detailed build instructions

Pookie's Home Page:
http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/

If you want to bend your own reciever from a flat, check out Newbie AK's site. He shows how to build your own flat bending jig (requires a press to do it, Harbor Freight sells a 12 ton press for $99.99 which will work very well). Newbie's jig will work with either precut flats, or you can make your own flats from sheet metal. Newbie's site:
http://geocities.com/partskitbuild/akm.html

Click on "Die and Press Set Up" for the bending jig, "Bend a Reciever" for instructions on bending your flat.

Hope this is helpful to you. -- Lee
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Old 04-09-2005, 08:37 AM   #10
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I have compared the ACE and that other template to my Tapco flats and they don't line up hardley at all. Seems like it would be easier to just make a xerox of a flat and use that as a template.
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Old 04-11-2005, 07:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beryl
I have compared the ACE and that other template to my Tapco flats and they don't line up hardley at all. Seems like it would be easier to just make a xerox of a flat and use that as a template.
Good idea.I think I'll do that.Can copy it at the library or Staples/Kinkos.I'll put it in my scanner too.I'll see what works best.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:32 PM   #12
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FYI Ace Arms is dead. www.acearms.com
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwolf74
Are any of these templetes good enough to build "from scratch" ?
I'm just looking for something that is as accurate as possible when laid out totally flat .
thanks

Most all of the templates are for pre-bent receiver shells.When laid flat they will be off because the metal stretches when bent.You could bend the metal first,then glue the template to it.Right now I'm trying to scan a Tapco flat.I'm having trouble with my scanner software.I just received two templates for 7.62 and 5.45 receivers.I'll scan them as soon as I sort out my scanner.These are from the American Gunsmith Institute and are a bit different from the templates and blueprints shown here.The 7.62 one seems very close to the Tapco flat.The hammer and trigger pin holes are about a tenth of an inch farther apart than a factory AK.The trigger pin hole seems a bit low too.Still the Tapco flats are close enough to work.
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Old 01-27-2006, 06:00 PM   #14
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It appears that I can not open any of the Files with the Receiver Diagrams , as listed in the above hcpookie reply , any help to find AK receiver diagrams for underfolder, and side folder would be great. Also need info on reliable normal turn around time for Blueing. Would like to have the receiver,trunnions, and trigger guard done before I build it. Need a good metal finish guy.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:36 AM   #15
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anyone running graphics programs(ai,coreldraw,etc.)? i imported the dxf(autocad) template into corel 12. it comes in perfectly 1:1. i ran some test prints on my cheap home printer to check dimensions. i'll get some better prints on the printer at my shop. looks good so far.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:52 AM   #16
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Which autocad print are you using? The one on Pookie's website?That's the same one that is there in PDF I think.It dates back a few years.How does it compare to a factory AK?Some say it's the best.Some say it's far off.I have a collection of a few different ones but none are perfect.
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Old 07-22-2006, 10:40 AM   #17
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pookies website. nothing factory to compare to, i'll check against my flats. with all the people who claim to have visited ak factories in russia and eastern europe it amazes me that nobody has ever brought back a print.
i just posted this to let people know about how this imported. not surprising, the differing opinions, it seems that the location of the fcg holes differs from mfr. to mfr.. i saw a 100% reciever , last night on an auction site, that had the "Y" dimple so low it actually went below the bend and the bottom of the hole was right on the reciever bottom. wtf, i'm a new builder and have decided to bend flats, seems like a lot less work and the jig doesn't cost that much.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:57 PM   #18
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I find the Tapco FCG holes farther apart than factory AK's.The trigger hole is very low.A lot of the "laser cut" flats have the same distance as that Tapco.I'm thinking there is one computer program for the laser cutting machine and everybody uses it.Must be expensive to get somebody to change it and I guess it is "close enough".I'd just like to see one that was correct.The Tapco Yugo flats seem the same as the DCI receivers and better than normal Tapco flats.Since Harlan was the first one to mention the Tapco Yugo flats I wonder if DCI is making the fYugo flats for Tapco.I compiled about 10 different blueprints and drawngs and am making my own flats now.None of them were perfect and I had to compare to factory European AK's to get closer to correct hiole locations.Now if I can figure how to get my drawings in to a program I can convert them to something for use on the PC.
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Old 10-10-2006, 12:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my-rifle
Every time I click on a Pookieweb link I get the "Page does not exist" error. Pookie, where the heck is your site? I need Yugo templates.
Working now

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/templates.htm.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:59 PM   #21
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Does anybody have a copy of the bending jig plans? I tried the link, but it dosn't work anymore. Or any other plans for one? Or would somebody with one be willing to give me dimensions?
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Old 11-09-2006, 05:25 PM   #22
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Here's 555ths original drawings, the one that started it all. The critical dimensions are there, most of the jigs made today are similar, only differing in small details. One upgrade is to install alignment pins on the centerline to automatically align the flat. When this jig was made you measured each flat during setup to ensure centering on the form. If you have a mill, making the center section out of a solid bar is an option, one that works very well. Just extend the magwell dimple cutouts into slots so you can slide the finished receiver off. There are no outer die dimensions listed, back in the day the flat was hand hammered over the form to bend it. What I did to make my outer die was sandwich the center form between two flats and then clamp the outer die side rails to the assembly. This sets the perfect spacing, then align the end pieces and weld it together.

http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7028
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Old 12-17-2006, 03:51 AM   #23
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After building with most of these templates, i like the strangelove print the best - with these changes:

1. Ignore the trigger guard rivet hole for aft location - you must set that based on mag fit.

2. Move the center support rearward by 2mm, or make sure to fit the center support (waffle mags wont fit otherwise).

3. Make the FCG pins 0.5mm closer together than the strangelove print shows - that way you get better sear engagement.

4. Ignore overall length requirement - that needs to be set by the top cover.
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedneck
After building with most of these templates, i like the strangelove print the best - with these changes:

1. Ignore the trigger guard rivet hole for aft location - you must set that based on mag fit.

2. Move the center support rearward by 2mm, or make sure to fit the center support (waffle mags wont fit otherwise).

3. Make the FCG pins 0.5mm closer together than the strangelove print shows - that way you get better sear engagement.

4. Ignore overall length requirement - that needs to be set by the top cover.

Most if not all of the early AK prints made in America had the FCG holes farther apart than any factory AK.Changing those,the center support,the trigger guard and the overall length doesn't leave much but maybe the trunnion rivets and they vary too.It's odd that the critical measurements are made from the rear of the receiver when I think it would better to make measurements starting from the front.Most AKM receivers are a touch shorter than 10.25".Even the best crawings I've found use this length and measure from the rear.I guess it is a good round measurement from which to measure the taper in the receiver.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:30 AM   #25
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I've gotten a few requests for information about building on a blank, so I decided to repeat here a post I put on another site which shall remain nameless. The job really isn't so hard. It's just really critical that the FCG holes and Saftey Selector holes end up in the right places. In this post, "Cold Steel Solutions" will be abbreviated, "CSS".

Building a Romanian RPK on a Cold Steel blank is very similar to building a Yugo on a Cold Steel blank. In fact the blanks are the same. Here's how I do mine:

  • I start with an AKBuilder flat. I fold it using my flat-bending jig, then clamp the bent flat to the bottom of the CSS blank so the two are PERFECTLY centered. Do NOT use the template that came with your blank. It is wrong. Check and recheck this. Line up the fronts and the sides and disregard whether the backs line up. The flats and the CSS blanks are usually not the same length. I clamp them together with a pair of vise-grips at each end of the blank.
  • Now I have a set of metal scribes I got from Harborfreight for $4 each. you can get a scribe inexpensively from Home Depot if you want. Use it like a pen to trace on the blank the outline of the magwell and the trigger hole on the flat. Remember that the outlines are backwards. This will not matter on the magwell, but the trigger-hole has a cut-out for the hook, and it will be on the wrong side of the blank. You can either draw it on the other side of the blank or do as I do, and cut two - one on each side. Do the same for the pistol-grip mounting block hole.
  • Next take a $39 Harborfreight rotary tool (If you don't have one of these yet, get one - and spend the extra $10 for the 1-year warranty. The rotary tools wear out every five to seven AK's, and this way you get the replacement for $10 instead of $40.), and cut out the magwell. When you do this, do not cut close to the line. Leave the line and about 1mm of steel on the blank. This will give you something you can work with later to make sure your magwell is centered. As you cut, watch your cutting wheel, and don't wear them past about 3/4" diameter. You will need the small wheels when you cut out the trigger hole. This part takes about 30 minutes.
  • At this point your blank is a receiver.
  • Cut out the trigger guard using the same method. Use the small wheels you kept from the previous step, as the trigger guard hole is too small for a full-sized cutoff wheel. 15 minutes.
  • For the pistol grip mount hole I drill a hole the same diameter as the narrowest part of the mounting thing hole, then I file it out to the right size. 15 minutes. You do NOT cut this one out when building a Yugo.
  • Once you have these three holes cut the rest of your build is very similar to building from an AK-builder flat with one HUGE exception: You absolutely must, must, must get your axis pin holes and safety holes perfectly round and perfectly aligned. To do this, here are some tips:

    • If you don't already own them, get yourself a set of calipers. It's very difficult to get it right using a ruler, and the consequence of failure is a ruined receiver.

    • Measure the axis hole from the bent flat receiver and transfer the measurements to the blank.

    • Always measure from the front of the receiver - NEVER from the back.

    • Always measure from the same point of reference - always the bottom of the receiver - or always the the top. Me, I use the bottom, because I want my trigger pin to lock up tightly with the shepherd's crook, but it's equally important for the bolt carrier to properly engage the hammer hump. When measuring from the bottom. get a small piece of 1/16" thick Home Depot steel, and hold it flat against the bottom of the receiver, and use your calipers to measure the distance from the bottom of the steel plate to the locations where you will drill your holes. Measure from the flat and transfer to the blank.

    • When you drill ANY holes in your blank start a pilot hole with the smallest bit your drill will chuck - usually a 1/8" bit. Drill the pilot holes on both sides of the blank, then run a nail or drill bit through both sides. Look at the nail. Is it straight? If it's not you will immediately know.

    • Remember - the 5mm holes go on the right, and the 7mm holes go on the left. I didn't think I'd have to tell you this, but I just discovered that I do. Ahem!

    • When you see that you have drilled off-center holes that you will need to fix - and this will happen - don't panic. A simple rat-tail file will let you egg-out the pilot hole in the direction the hole needs to move. Do the same on the other side of the receiver. It's amazing how well you can fix off-center holes with this method. Do not egg either side more than the diameter of the axis pin that will pass through the hole. The axis pin holes have to be perfectly round. Don't use small reamers to file out the holes. They aren't made for this, and you will ruin them. Once the holes are egged-out so they line up, drill out the hole with a bit, then again with a reamer to get perfect axis-pin holes.

    • The Center Support - When you drill this one do so with a 1/8" bit, and leave it that way. You're going to be welding rails in, and afterwards you're going to have to re-drill these holes to get them through the steel of the lower rails. At that point use the correct sized bit or reamer.



Riveting on a blank is no different from riveting on a flat. You use the same techniques for lining up the holes. It's easy.

That's it. The first time I buiilt on a blank it was a bitch, but I had no one to tell me these things. Yours will be considerably easier.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:32 AM   #26
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Regardless of the build I'm doing - flat or blank - I always use the same order of work. The mistakes of many builds have taught me that this is the correct order, but your mileage may vary. My order of work is:

1) Scribe and cut out magwell, trigger hole, and pistol-grip lug hole if needed.

2) Drill and rivet in trigger guard and safety selector stop.

3) Drill and rivet in front trunnion.

4) Weld in lower rails.

5) Drill and rivet center support.

6) Press in barrel.

7) Drill holes and rivet in rear trunnion.

8) Drill FCG holes. This is really where the rubber meets the road. Do this wrong and everything before it is wasted. Do the hammer first, then the trigger.

9) Drill and file the safety selector holes. This is going to sound dumb, but remember - the big hole goes on the right. I know, I know. It's obvious. Right. I got it wrong on my last build. The thing fit PERFECTLY - except the tongue stuck up instead of down. I had to weld in filler, file it down and smooth it, then re-drill through the hardened weld steel. Ouch!

10) Heat treat the holes and ejector tip.

11) Reassemble and test. A lot.

12) Refinish the metal and wood.
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:30 AM   #27
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Default Great Info.

Thanks My Rifle.

I just ordered a Yugo Kit, so this is very useful info. Did you say that the Yugo AK and RPK use the same coldsteel blank?
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Old 02-22-2008, 10:45 AM   #28
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They can use the same blank. Be aware though when you install the buttstock that you don't try to over-tighten it on the Yugo. You will have to trim the back of the receiver a tiny bit to get the buttstock to fit. Then tighten it the rest of the way.

The Yugo underfolder uses an underfolder blank. You don't really need it though. You can drill your own underfolder holes if you want. It's not like it takes any time or anything.
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:04 PM   #29
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Thanks MyRifle! I was thinking of using a flat for template, nice to see it works. Do you use the selector stop on yugos built on the CSS yugo blanks? It doesnt set the mag too low or anything right? I intend on only using one set of rivits and one demil per yugo. I got the comon three 7.62's and plan to do them all on css blanks. If I run into issues when I start Im gonna bug you, K.
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:11 PM   #30
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I haven't had a problem with the magazine sitting too low yet, but I've only done three (on #4 now). Sorry to say I have to buy rivets by the pound, and I demill at least two per build. If you can get by with only one set my hat's off to you. I'd be very happy though if I can help in any way.
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Old 02-24-2008, 04:10 PM   #31
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MyRifle, have you used the AKbuilder rivits on a CSS blank/yugo build yet? Just wondering if theyre actually the correct length to form nice heads. Ill be placing an order with Curtis soon and was thinkin about throwing more rivits on the tab. M72 uses same rivits as M70b1 right?
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Old 02-24-2008, 09:59 PM   #32
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I stopped using AK-Builder rivets specifically because they weren't long enough for me to get decent heads to form. I buy them from Centaur Forge and McMaster-Carr, and they come in 1-3/4" long, so I have plenty of rivet shank to work with. I cut off some, and I get nice rivet heads now.
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:28 AM   #33
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I've posted this before, but I'm going to do so here again, because it bears repeating.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY YOUR RIVETS AND CENTER SUPPORTS FOR $10 PER SET.

I've found three sources where I can get all the riveting material I need. I can get about 100 sets of rivets and center support tubes for about $25. Beats the hell out of AK-Builder, and you'll never again get rivets too short. This list includes only one type of long rivet which fits the rear trunnion holes as well as the tubing I list from AircraftSpruce. It is 1.5" long, so you'll have to trim it, and it has a round head, so you'll have to hit it with a Dremel wheel to flatten it for the center support, but it works out to about $0.10 per rivet set which is somewhat cheaper than $9 per set, and you can afford to cut them out and throw them away if you mess up.

McMaster-Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/

Part No Description
97300A100 Plain Steel Round Head Solid Rivet, 5/32" Diameter, 1/4" Length, Approx 250 Pcs/pk
97300A105 Plain Steel Round Head Solid Rivet, 5/32" Diameter, 3/8" Length, Approx 300 Pcs/pk

Centaur Forge Sells the long rivets
http://www.centaurforge.com/prodinfo...ber=532X1-34RI

Part No Description
532X1-34RI 5/32" x 1-3/4" Round-head Steel Rivets


Aircraft Spruce sells the center support tubes
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...tubing_un1.php

Part No Description
03-00300 1/4" Outside diameter 3/16" or 5/32" Inside Diameter 4130 tubes

You buy the center support tbing in 1 foot lengths, so you'll have to cut it off using tubing cutters (15 seconds). To get the correct length of the center tube, use your calipers to

1) Measure the width of the rear trunnion.

2) Measure and sum the thicknesses of the lower rails.

3) Subtract the summed thicknesses of the rails from the width of the rear trunnion.

Mark your tube for that length and when you cut the tube, leave the mark. This method is more accurate than using AK-Builder's tubes, because not all trunnions and rails are the same size. Use tubing cutters on the tubes. If you use a saw or rotary tool/cutoff wheel your cuts would be straight, and when you press on the rivet the tube will want to bend.
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Last edited by my-rifle; 05-28-2008 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:54 AM   #34
leroygibbs
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Just a quick question on rivets My-Rifle, do you trim these rivets, and if so, how much and how do you do it?
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:46 AM   #35
my-rifle
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The short rivets are the same size as the "long short rivets" you get from AK-Builder. I trim them about 1/8" for the front trunnion using my dremel's cutoff wheel and a pair of pliers, and a hair more for the trigger guards. The long rivets (1-3/4") are too long for the rear trunnion rivets, so I trim them so about 7/32" protrudes. If I didn't egg out my rivet holes the that's just about perfect. On the center support rivet I do the same, make two dome heads, then use my dremel's cutoff wheel to polish down the heads on both sides, so they're just about 1/16" thick. the safety selector clears them perfectly, and they look gorgeous - about 7/32" diameter. Being able to control the length of my rivets has improved my build tremendously.
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