HK Style Charging System for AK

[THE RUSSIAN]

This is really neat. its on a few forums now, i couldn't help but to show you guys. i think it definitely has potential, i'v talked to the individule personally and he's a heck of a guy. there is a sleeve made from 4140 steel that goes over the piston, this also acta as an insulator against heat. the handle is turned up away from the thumb and fingers. it has a bolt locking system the handle goes completely upright in the vertical position. its much like the HK. the old charging handle can be removed. the tube is a lot thicker then the original and allows for air circulation.
Check it out:

www.dublinaksystems.com

[panzertruppe]

Interesting...

Has anyone considered simply placing a chging handle on left side like a FAL...? Slot in dust cover, voila! I'm sure they have...

The new bolt seems like it MITE interfere w/ handling the weapon w/ left(Thumb) hand in the area.... Risk of being hit by handle and burns from gases expelling from that opening on left??? I guess that's the reason for the insulator??? Won't be very insulating for long, 100 + rds, will be on fire w/ rest of weapon fwd of the trunion..... But then I saw the chging handle still on right side too....

panzertruppe

[warhound]

colorado shooting sports makes the Lightning Bolt

http://www.coloradoshootingsports.com/AKIntro.html

I'm not really a fan of the HK style charging handle, locking it to the back, changing the mag, and then slapping it forward doesn't seem any faster to me than the AK's original configuration.

[THE RUSSIAN]

did you see the video? you dont have to lock it back. you can just pull it back and let it go, just like the old way except this is in a more convient location.

[ddavefl]

I`m a lefty so the AK is PEERRRFFEECCTT for me

[lextech]

I would like it better if it folded down like the hk's.

[Lysander]

I love these solutions searching for a problem. Looks like a great way to burn yourself and/or get a broken thumb. Not much of a "torture test" when the bolt is closed. Why don't they throw sand on it while he's shooting the rifle?

Oh, right, because then it would clog and lock up. Sorry, but the AK is the most reliable small arms weapons system out there because it hasn't been "fixed" until it was broken.

[knall]

WOW thats dangerous and stupid!!! I doubt ANYONE from this board would do that.

[THE RUSSIAN]

Originally Posted by Lysander

I love these solutions searching for a problem. Looks like a great way to burn yourself and/or get a broken thumb. Not much of a "torture test" when the bolt is closed. Why don't they throw sand on it while he's shooting the rifle?

Oh, right, because then it would clog and lock up. Sorry, but the AK is the most reliable small arms weapons system out there because it hasn't been "fixed" until it was broken.

broken thumb, burns? come on. i'v seen people hold back the bolt assembly with their hands and fire it. how on earth would you get burned? it would run cooler then a regular tube because of the circulation.

[Mandaree36]

There was a seller on the files who made these types and sold them here.

I kinda wanted one.

[warhound]

did you see the video? you dont have to lock it back. you can just pull it back and let it go, just like the old way except this is in a more convient location.

I know that, but you'd still have to reach further forward to grab the charging handle. It's probably not any faster than reaching around the top or bottom of the gun to work the original charging handle.

It's just my opinion. It's cool, it's different, but it's not for me.

[knall]

Originally Posted by THE RUSSIAN

broken thumb, burns? come on. i'v seen people hold back the bolt assembly with their hands and fire it. how on earth would you get burned? it would run cooler then a regular tube because of the circulation.

How is the rifle going to fire if you are holding the the bolt back?

Broken thumb from the charging handle being directly above your thumb.

Burns from gas escaping through the now huge slot...

[THE RUSSIAN]

Originally Posted by knall

How is the rifle going to fire if you are holding the the bolt back?

Broken thumb from the charging handle being directly above your thumb.

Burns from gas escaping through the now huge slot...

the tubethe funnels the gas so it stays in,front of the tube is enclosed for that reason. i know it wont function if you hold it back, i'm just stating that there isn't a ton of force, not enough to brake thumbs unless your you have some disabelity.

[Lysander]

Originally Posted by THE RUSSIAN

the tubethe funnels the gas so it stays in,front of the tube is enclosed for that reason. i know it wont function if you hold it back, i'm just stating that there isn't a ton of force, not enough to brake thumbs unless your you have some disabelity.

Hey man, if you want to mount this on your rifle with your Leapers scope, UTG quad hand rail, and Tapco side folder, have at it. Personally, I'll leave my rifles the way they are: reliable.

[nalioth]

Very much a solution in search of a problem.

[IanMor]

If it were nonreciprocating, and retained an enclosed piston I could see it as a potential improvement if it were coupled with a real BHO device. As it is, it just changes the manner in which you charge the weapon. No improvement as far as I can discern.

[THE RUSSIAN]

Originally Posted by Yoda

No..this is all wrong..another attempt at taking a 60+yr proven design and trying to tacti-kewl it!
I see gas blow (possibly worse) issues when the piston moves into the channel area on EACH shot, as well possibly non-intended stress & wear loads on the carrier, since it will attempt to 'bow' up at the piston/carrier mate and carrier will try to climb on the rails when being charged from the front like that.
Yoda

I'm confused on your logic. how will it bow up more? the impulse force from the gas block is what drives the piston back in the first place, how is this any different. there is no change in direction of the force, the piston is actually flowing straighter down the gas tube then it would regularly because if the sleeve over the piston. so actually, when the rifle is being charged this way it is just like it is utilizing the gases from a round.

please chime in.

[Lysander]

Originally Posted by THE RUSSIAN

I'm confused on your logic. how will it bow up more? the impulse force from the gas block is what drives the piston back in the first place, how is this any different. there is no change in direction of the force, the piston is actually flowing straighter down the gas tube then it would regularly because if the sleeve over the piston. so actually, when the rifle is being charged this way it is just like it is utilizing the gases from a round.

please chime in.

I'm going to guess you're the inventor of this farcical attempt at ghetto engineering since you seem to be pimping it out on almost every AK related forum I go to.

So far, it's been met with universal ridicule, especially amongst those who actually use the rifle system. Might I suggest you go back to the drawing board with this one? Here's a challenge for you: Make a steel or polymer AK magazine that can compete with the Bulgarian Waffle in price and reliability. So far, no US magazine maker has been able to.

[TedG954]

I'm so confused. All along, I thought the AK was a tried and trued rifle that has been in service for more than 50 years. Its design is simplistic and almost indestructable.

Now, someone has come along with a "better idea" ????

IF it was a good idea, your AK would already have it.

What do you think.....

A.) Mr. K was an idiot with no idea of what he was doing.

B.) Maybe someone has a marketing plan to "convince" AK owners they really need this gimmic.

[nymoshigh]

ahhhhhh the old re-inventing the wheel routine. Nice but not necessary.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by Lysander

I'm going to guess you're the inventor of this farcical attempt at ghetto engineering since you seem to be pimping it out on almost every AK related forum I go to.

Guerrilla marketing 101. "I found this neat product I want to share with you all - out of the kindness of my heart . . .. "

'cept those who practice the ART of guerrilla marketing establish some street cred first - then we slip them the "hey check out this product." Only a freaking amateur does it on his first post.

[Lysander]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

Guerrilla marketing 101. "I found this neat product I want to share with you all - out of the kindness of my heart . . .. "

'cept those who practice the ART of guerrilla marketing establish some street cred first - then we slip them the "hey check out this product." Only a freaking amateur does it on his first post.

It takes a while to be proceeded by a reputation as good as yours, GP.

Yeah, I figured it was for a really lame viral marketing campaign when "THE RUSSIAN" (feels like it should have a couple of "!" and "1" thrown in) all of a sudden posted this "amazing new tool for the AK" across almost a dozen boards on the same day.

[THE RUSSIAN]

First off, i am not the inventor of this. however, i will say the inventor is a friend of mine. i posted this for two reasons, i want to help the guy out and i truly believe this is a good system. and yes, i already ordered a few for myself. so i will put it on my guns and i'll let you guys know how they perform. to each his own.

[partymember]

looks like something Bruno would buy...

"ist like ze H und K from ze MOTHER-LAND! Ich simply loooooves ze design und thinks zis is VERY in-fashion zis year!"

[gunplumber]

One would think from your posts that you had actually used the product. Perhaps your opinion of it will have greater merit when you have used it. Watching a video doesn't cut for "field testing"

[Lysander]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

One would think from your posts that you had actually used the product. Perhaps your opinion of it will have greater merit when you have used it. Watching a video doesn't cut for "field testing"

Please, even that "torture test" in the video was pathetic. If his rifle jammed from throwing some dirt onto a closed bolt then his product would be an even bigger joke than it currently is.

[mmckown]

Seems to me that what this guy is trying to do is pretty American. Someone has an idea. They design it, put effort, money and time into its developent. Then they field test it, rework the design, refield test and maybe finally try to market it.

Most try to short cut the field test redesign phase because it is time consuming, expensive and often extremely disappointing. Often they lack the resources or contacts to conduct the necessary testing.

Many years ago I spent some time as the COMM/ET Department head of a SEAL Team based put of Little Creek. As such I got to get in on the developement of several new systems ranging from weapons sights, night vision and communications systems. Rule 1 is simple. Ignore what the seller/manufacturer sez and get it into the field in the hands of an operator. What design engineers think is neat or needed is often very far from what IS neat and needed.

I once had a sales guy from Litton try to sell me some new high speed low drag NVS stuff. After looking it all over and spending some time in the field with it I had to tell him no thanks, it just didn't fit our needs. He was very disappointed to say the least. I then showed him what I was using. I had cut the tubes out of a couple of pairs of PVS-5s and using an electronic hobby box and a circut board I had pieced togeather some monocular NVS. Looked crappy and were hardly as robust as I would have liked, but they fit the bill. (You would never believe the crap I took from Crane NWS when they found out what I was doing)

6 months later the same guy was showing me the M911 monocular. First factory mono I had seen and we bought a ton.

My advice would be this. Find a need. (I don't like the charging system on the AK either.) Design an answer that you think is an improvement. Hand it to people that make their living with it and see what they think.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by mmckown

After looking it all over and spending some time in the field with it I had to tell him no thanks, it just didn't fit our needs.

You're lucky. My experience was "some congressman has these made in his district and you're going to get issued it instead of the far better off-the shelf one you could have bought for 25% the price."

[bounce19712]

tacti-coooooool.

but 90$ for a rifle that should cost $100 ???

[mmckown]

Originally Posted by gunplumber

You're lucky. My experience was "some congressman has these made in his district and you're going to get issued it instead of the far better off-the shelf one you could have bought for 25% the price."

And thats the difference between the old SpecWar and the rest. I had a 1.5 million budget for the department and got several money drops of special funds on top of that. A LOT of what I bought was SpecWar specific. It was the early/mid 80's and Four was kinda in the linelight due to our AO.

Sounds like you were in the Marines or worse yet Army. A lot of the crap the Army bought just did not fit our mission profiles, and enough of the brass had the balls to tell it like it was. It was the days of Demo Dick anf the stuff he was doing at Six was paving the way for all of us...

[gunplumber]

yeah - Army SOCOM. Rangers, then SF.

As an example, we were the first Army unit to be issued the M9 Phobius (sp?) bayonet. We tested it. We broke dozens of them. General consensus was it was a heavy piece of crap that did nothing well.

Army Times reported we all loved it.

Since actually cutting wire with it would cause the hinge to break - the doctrine was changed to "notch" the wire with it, then work the wire back and forth to break it.

The utility of a bayonet aside, we could have bought off the shelf utility knives (K-bar, etc) for 20% the cost, and a few compact bolt cutters per squad.

The additional hassle of having it a "sensitive item" that had to be turned in to the arms room made for a logistical nightmare.

It bothered me so much that I did some analysis of the Defense Acquisition procedures for my graduate degree in strategic studies.

Perhaps Gramm-Rugman (sp?) attempt at curtailing some of the poor spending procedures went too far in the other direction.

I am pleased to see more opportunities for my son's unit today to buy off-the shelf items. There has been significant improvement. But there is lots of room for more. We just have to get the politics out of Material Command. Tough when the budgets are approved by congressional representatives with a duty to "bring home the bacon" to their constituents.

And for the record, I think the invention is interesting - I just don't see how it is an improvement. Different doesn't mean better. And there is no holy grail.

[panzertruppe]

Yes GP,

Well put and, my initiial thoughts too, ineresting, but nothing more... Yoda had a good one w/ folding handle like FALs... Hell, bend/redesign carrier w/ handle up like the R4s/Galils on the side it's already on...

Oh well.... He's been beat round head and shoulders pretty good by now.... We mite have even produced some good Alpha error input or him... THAT didn't cost him anything except his ego...

panzertruppe

[Bubbajj]

Lets not be too hasty. The AK was designed for simplicity of use and manufacture, not ergonomics. To say that the design can't be improved is probably not a fair or correct statement. Not sure that the forward charging handle is an improvement but let a design be tested before you dismiss it out of hand. I saw in shotgun news a new style of safety lever that can be operated by the trigger hand without losing your fireing grip. Looks kinda ugly but definately an improvement over the standart AK safety lever. A mag release you could hit with your index finger without having to move your fireing grip would be a plus too. I think they make em but not sure. I say design away.

I'll bet they could take that concept and design a system that has the lever folding down and non-reciprocating. The kernal is there, maybe it will germinate to something truly remarkable and useful. Why not an FAL style charging handle that would fit onto a strengthened top cover? Just needs someone with the talent to sit and think about it. We never would have moved beyond muzzle loaders if we had stopped with good enough.

[Lysander]

Originally Posted by Bubbajj

Lets not be too hasty. The AK was designed for simplicity of use and manufacture, not ergonomics.

It's amazing how much more ergonomic the AK becomes when you use it as it was designed to be and not as an unergonomic AR...

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by Bubbajj

A mag release you could hit with your index finger without having to move your fireing grip would be a plus too.

Perhaps if you consider magazines a "use once and discard" item.