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Old 05-24-2009, 04:22 AM   #1
cityslicker
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Default Ohio Rapid Fire AK 74 WARNING

Well I am new to this forum so I hate to start on a negative but for those that do not know about ORF's Bulgarian ak 74 builds I though you should get a heads up.They do not finish the parts before assembly(also I have been told they don't even clean them before assembly but this is not confirmed).I called ORF and spoke to the build department and this is indeed correct and they acknowledge this is not the proper way to build them but it is what the owner wants(presumably to keep costs down) .So what is the big deal you say it is an ak? Some day you could find rust weep in particular between the front trunnion and receiver.You cannot get in there to lube it or clean it over time you will lose enough metal to cause a wobble between the parts and this is very bad indeed. Orf will not fix the problem if you send it back with rust weep they stated they will just re park it with out demilling it.This amounts to painting over the rust on a car fender it hides it it will not fix it.You can get Bulgarian ak 74 's builds from In Range or Gewehr Works . These are both companies who pride themselves on quality and finish their builds correctly.

Last edited by cityslicker; 05-24-2009 at 04:46 AM.
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Old 05-24-2009, 01:40 PM   #2
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Huh? Keep your gun well oiled and this should not be a problem. Furthermore, AFAIK the parts ORF is building from are allready parked, so the interior should have a finish unless they blast the parts before assembly. My 2c.
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Old 05-24-2009, 02:42 PM   #3
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I keep all of my weapons in a room it has concrete walls and ceiling with a humidity barrier paint and a 4 inch thick air tight door the room is dust free, temperature and humidity controlled room it has it's own dedicated climate control system and keeps them with in 2%rh and 2 degrees Fahrenheit of set point(I am an industrial HVAC mechanic ,what can I say I got bored and went overkill nothing in there is valuable they are all shooters) . I keep high carbon steel swords(live steel not that stainless wall hanger crap) and knives in that room as well.They are all well lubed and in all the years I have been collecting never once have I had a speck of rust on anything in there.I am religious about cleaning and lubing even when the weapons have not been shot they still get a clean and lube every 6 months or a polish with a silicone or oil rag after handling(basically they are stored like museum pieces except they get shot) .Yet I purchased 2 of them from ORF and when they both developed weep .an acquaintance of mine is really knowledgeable on the ak builds out there.He is ex soviet military works at the counter at the local range and teaches AK course every few months at the range he really dose know the weapon inside out. He is the one that filled me in on the issue apparently some of his students and himself had issues with this very problem .He has stopped recommending ORF to his students over this very issue. I then called ORF spoke to the build manager Rodney he confirmed this practice.He also acknowledges this is not the correct way to build one and I guess he has had a lot of grief over this problem because he was VERY AWARE OF THE WEEP.You can lube it all you want the oil cannot reach in and coat the areas to protect them effectively.I spoke with Tim at Gewher Works after the unsatisfactory solution offered by ORF.He offered a of solution short of rebuilding it but the effectiveness would be in question he recommend I rebuild it for a 100% cure . The end result was selling my ORF and purchasing a Inrange ak74 .After doing some checking this was the best rifle on the market.Tim was waiting on receivers when this all went down.By now have his 74's on line and he has a excellent reputation.I will be ordering one as soon as I have the extra cash.

Last edited by cityslicker; 05-24-2009 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:32 PM   #4
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Not an unommon practice to finish after build. When you demil a kit you see naked interior parts in some cases. Oil will seek and remain in any crevices and rivet holes etc. upon heating cycles of the rifle. Evidenced when demil work is being done. Never heard of an AK rusting out.
Other than the horrible bores the Yugo AK and SKS rifles are good examples of firearms that were used. abused and poorly stored. They still work. The blue used on Yugo firearms has very limited ruist resistance vs park or paint in any case.., as an example.
But buy what you are comfortable with and if you believe that AK's need undercoating then go for it.
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:40 PM   #5
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This is not the first time this has been commented on.

It will probably not be the last.
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:46 PM   #6
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You do know that Bulgarian, Russia, Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia all finish their rifles after they are completed?

Sadly a large number of Romanians I have pulled apart, even if they are new on the exterior have some rust.

Almost all park the rifle after it is assembled, which covers any exposed area on the inside, and then they are painted externally.

I'm not sure where you live, I live in a rather humid area of Ohio, and this has never been an issue for me?

Next time use a penetrating oil.... it will get to those area's that are "unreachable".

-myers
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Old 05-24-2009, 06:18 PM   #7
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Lordy, Lordy, what to say...

First, let me begin by saying that there are a lot of reasons to avoid ORF assembled guns. God only knows that, from the many problems that I've seen, I certainly won't be buying any...

However, I have to say that it's very common practice to refinish the gun after assembly. That's certainly what we do at Hickman Rifles in Colorado Springs. We demil the kit, clean it good with carb or brake cleaner (depending somewhat on what kind of paint finish was originally used by the manufacturer), rivet the receiver, reassemble the rifle, bead blast the entire rifle (sometimes we polish the receiver on Yugo guns) and then park or blue it (depending on what the customer wants). If the kit is in nice enough condition, we often just rivet the receiver and then blast and blue/park the receiver before we plug the rest of the parts into the receiver. In a few cases (Yugo M95s, for example), we have blued the receiver before riveting the front trunion (to preserve the color of the original finish).

While we all have our own opinions, I don't think that refinishing after assembly is a fair condemnation of ORF. Perhaps poor cleaning of the parts before assembly, but not refinishing after assembly...

In addition, while certainly not pointing any fingers here in terms of who knows who, to have a new member, with his very first post on akfiles, rip up ORF and, in the same post, recommend guns by another 'manufacturer' sounds pretty bad to me. What it sounds like is that a shill for In Range has been born, you know...?

I'm not saying that that's what's happening here, but it does sound like it. And, often, perception becomes reality in many people's minds...

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Old 05-24-2009, 08:15 PM   #8
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No ,I am not a shill. I agree not a good way to start in a new forum .ORf are a good bunch of guys but this is business.When I buy 2 rifles 3 months apart and they start having issues such as this. I feel the need to speak out.If some one had told me about this before I made a purchase I would have been informed and looked a little closer.As for Inrange I never heard of them before I started looking into other 74 makes.I purchased one and have been satisfied with the weapon.Originally I wanted a Arsenal 105 and had no luck finding one. I have a 107 and a Arsenal Russian import made 922rcompliant by Red Stick and used to have a 106 all great rifles.Gewher works was another I recommended based upon Tim's past work.I very seldom have anything negative to say about any builder with the exceptions of CIA and Eagle Arms and that is because I have had more then the one that slipped through the cracks problems namely the CETME and the EAJ 15.I live in Ohio within reasonable drive time of ORF and wish they would clean it up.They have the kind of products I want to buy but after the issues I had with the 2 74's and another rifle they made what can I say.It would be great for me from a personal stand point if they changed these practices.They could and I hope they do.They used to have a really good reputation but I have to say sadly have let it slide this is my opinion.It is however based upon my experiences and I have sadly not been alone I have spoken first hand with others who have had the same issue with this build . I have heard some builders do not finish before assembly and maybe they do something that orf fails to do and therefore have a better product but to my knowledge it is mill spec in Russia at least on the military ones.This come from the guy who was in the soviet army and was very familiar with the weapon and how the mil spec is assembled. I am not saying don't buy ORF just be aware of what you are buying and look close at these problem spots.When I buy a weapon and spend money for a quality I expect the quality I pay for.I could have bought a SAR but I wanted better.I have read of other quality issues that ORF has but I cannot speak to them as I had none of these other issues on the 74 builds.

Last edited by cityslicker; 05-24-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:35 AM   #9
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Just squirt some WD40 or rust preventative in there when you clean the rifle.
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:05 PM   #10
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All my builds were parked and painted AFTER asembley . That is the way pretty much everyone does it ,I believe .... the best penetraiting oil is KANO AERO-KROIL , it penitrates to one millionth of an inch , and has phosphoric acid that eats the rust away ... no more problem ....
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:56 PM   #11
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I have an ORF build and the rifle has been nothing but a pleasure to shoot.

I would recommend anyone who wanted an AK-74 to buy one without hesistation.

Oh and I hose mine down when cleaning with a spray on Cosmoline and then wipe off the excess.

Last edited by hazuya; 05-25-2009 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommo
Just squirt some WD40 or rust preventative in there when you clean the rifle.
Do this and move on. A common issue.
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Old 05-30-2009, 02:43 PM   #13
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I bought more than a few kits from ORF that when you removed the rivets from the front trunion assembly; were oily rusty between the receiver and the front trunion. These were factory guns and included rusting metal shaving between the trunnion and receiver. These were mostly M92's and a few M95A's.There wer a few Bulgy kits also that had the problem. ORF just sold these kits, not built them. I would prefer that the rust is removed before the build, which I do; but I do not build commercially for sale either.
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Old 05-31-2009, 12:14 AM   #14
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Please, please do not use WD-40 on firearms. This is not its intended purpose and it should not be used on them. You'll wind up with gunk in your action, and rust anywhere you did not spray as moisture will be displaced there.

-myers
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Old 06-06-2009, 03:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
I have an ORF build and the rifle has been nothing but a pleasure to shoot.

I would recommend anyone who wanted an AK-74 to buy one without hesistation.

Oh and I hose mine down when cleaning with a spray on Cosmoline and then wipe off the excess.
Mine, on the other hand, has NEVER worked correctly. I have left it with them a couple times to fix it and no improvment. I would not buy another rifle assembled there.

It's a bulgarian AK-74 built on their milled receiver. It bolts-over rounds (ftf) at least 3 times every full magazine.
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Old 06-06-2009, 08:20 PM   #16
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If you can't find KROIL then S'OK is similar.Also, LPS3 will leave a film when it dries and is good stuff.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:36 AM   #17
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ORF builds crap and the owner is a lying piece of shit. Good reasoins to avoid ORF products. Oh, and here's another one:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=119883&page=1

But it is normal to finish a rifle when at least partially assembled. I've watched Arsenal Bulgaria spraypainting complete guns.

I refinish all the small parts separately, and do the barreled receiver as one piece after parking. So yeah - the flats of the trunions won't gt paint and will only get what park seeps. Haven't had any complaints.
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cityslicker
...over time you will lose enough metal to cause a wobble between the parts and this is very bad indeed.
Bull.

What ever other reasons there are for a proper finish, thats a crock. The tiny amount of rust weepage coming out from between the receiver and trunion will not cause your trunion to wobble if it was properly rivited in place. Not now, not ever.

Now, ORF's build qualities are certainly something to be skeptical of, and there is already a plethera of reasons to avoid them. But that there (whats quoted) is never going to happen.
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Old 06-07-2009, 07:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
ORF builds crap and the owner is a lying piece of shit. Good reasoins to avoid ORF products. Oh, and here's another one:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=119883&page=1

But it is normal to finish a rifle when at least partially assembled. I've watched Arsenal Bulgaria spraypainting complete guns.

I refinish all the small parts separately, and do the barreled receiver as one piece after parking. So yeah - the flats of the trunions won't gt paint and will only get what park seeps. Haven't had any complaints.
I really wish statements like this would start with "in my opinion". My ORF rifle has never jammed, misfired or in any other way acted any other way than how it should. It shoots consistent 2.0" or so groups at 100 yards or at least till it gets too hot. and I can ring the 5" inch ram at 200 yards till its boring and it can be hotter than shit.

The only thing if I was to really say anything is that I wish the receiver was a tad shorter so my dust cover close up properly but ORF didnt make that either but maybe could have got caught in a QC. I'm only talkingbaout 1/16 of an inch so no biggie.

My rifle is quality in my opinion and I can validate it.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:50 PM   #20
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
I refinish all the small parts separately, and do the barreled receiver as one piece after parking. So yeah - the flats of the trunions won't gt paint and will only get what park seeps. Haven't had any complaints.
By the way, it's easy to assume that everyone knows what you mean when that's sometimes not the case.

Since it never occurred to me that anyone would attempt to refinish a rifle that was completely assembled (internal parts and all), I should probably mention that what Mark says here is what we also do (small parts (and any part easy to remove from the receiver and barrel) separately and, either just the riveted receiver (if the rest of the kit is nice enough to leave with it's original finish intact) or the barreled receiver as one piece.

Just sayin'...

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Old 06-08-2009, 11:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
I really wish statements like this would start with "in my opinion". The only thing if I was to really say anything is that I wish the receiver was a tad shorter so my dust cover close up properly . . .My rifle is quality in my opinion and I can validate it.
When I have a subjective opinion, I will predicate it as "IMO". My other statements above are observed reality, not opinion.

1. Todd Grove or ORF is a liar. Demonstrated repeatedly.

2. Todd Grove builds shitty products. Demonstrated repeatedly (you did look at the link, didn't you?)

That he also may occasionally get it right does not make observation #2 false.
I assert that one who lies and knowingly & willfully sells shitty products, is some form of fecal matter. As Todd meets the criteria set forth, he also is shit. If this is not the correct conclusion to reach from the evidence, please provide an alternative.
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Old 06-08-2009, 11:54 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
ORF builds crap and the owner is a lying piece of shit. Good reasoins to avoid ORF products. Oh, and here's another one:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=119883&page=1

But it is normal to finish a rifle when at least partially assembled. I've watched Arsenal Bulgaria spraypainting complete guns.

I refinish all the small parts separately, and do the barreled receiver as one piece after parking. So yeah - the flats of the trunions won't gt paint and will only get what park seeps. Haven't had any complaints.

Observed reality is opinion sir.

I own a ORF rifle and I can speak from ownership. I don't know "Todd". I only speak from my personal experience. To color all of his rifles the way you are is a broad brush. That's all I'm saying. It appears you have a beef with the business or bought a rifle from him that had an issue that wasnt resolved? A receipt can cure alot.

I read the link and all I can say is either get your money back or get a different rifle. Sometimes you have to be aggressive in proving your point. More often than not though if you get shitty than they will get shitty. A smile goes farther than being rude. Again I'm not saying that guy did that. I'm just if you present your case properly you can get satisfaction.
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Old 06-08-2009, 01:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
Observed reality is opinion sir.

I own a ORF rifle and I can speak from ownership. I don't know "Todd". I only speak from my personal experience. To color all of his rifles the way you are is a broad brush. That's all I'm saying. It appears you have a beef with the business or bought a rifle from him that had an issue that wasnt resolved? A receipt can cure alot.

I read the link and all I can say is either get your money back or get a different rifle. Sometimes you have to be aggressive in proving your point. More often than not though if you get shitty than they will get shitty. A smile goes farther than being rude. Again I'm not saying that guy did that. I'm just if you present your case properly you can get satisfaction.
Mark, if I might take a whack at this, see what I can remember from Freshman Philosophy 101.

It may be my opinion that God exists, I cannot however prove this to you through empirical evidence, at least not empirical evidence that you would likely accept.

I can however pick up a ORF Galil receiver and a set of calibrated micrometers and tell you that it is out of spec. This would be empirical evidence. That would be a "fact" not an "opinion"

It is my opinion that the finish on my ORF 74 was poor. It is a fact that my ORF Galil receiver is out of spec.

I would suggest you read up on Todd Grove and ORF. A receipt will get you nowhere, a smile will get you less, and aggressive behavior will get you less than nowhere.

-myers
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Old 06-08-2009, 01:41 PM   #25
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The only thing if I was to really say anything is that I wish the receiver was a tad shorter so my dust cover close up properly

Where I come from, a rifle with an incorrectly fitted dustcover is defective.
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Old 06-08-2009, 03:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
ORF builds crap and the owner is a lying piece of shit. Good reasoins to avoid ORF products. Oh, and here's another one:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=119883&page=1

But it is normal to finish a rifle when at least partially assembled. I've watched Arsenal Bulgaria spraypainting complete guns.

I refinish all the small parts separately, and do the barreled receiver as one piece after parking. So yeah - the flats of the trunions won't gt paint and will only get what park seeps. Haven't had any complaints.
Here is what I mean: ORF builds crap. That is a broad brush. My rifle functions fine. It was built using Non OEM parts. Come on I wasnt nit picking, If I paid for an Izzy trunion, etc than I might bitch about a monor cosmetic flaw. Google ORF and then Google Century Tantel. Tell me where issues are. Just because I read about 2 or 4 rifles doesnt meran "all" the rifles are garbage. You should say this rifle or in this instance.

You imply directly ORF builds crap. Plural usage and not singular.

That sir is opinion and not fact.
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Old 06-08-2009, 03:37 PM   #27
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I can't think of a more plain way to say it - that you think I am merely implying suggests my writing is unclear, or your comprehension muddled.

So how many defective products does a company have to produce (total numbers) or what percentage, to (in YOUR opinion) deserve the title "crap".

I envision a cap around 1%, but maybe you are more generous.
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Old 06-08-2009, 04:37 PM   #28
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How many ORF products do you or have you owned?

If 1% defines crap than what are you implying about all the manufactured products in America?

I'll bet GM would have an orgasm with 1%, lol

It seems obvious you have an issue with ORF for whatever reason. I want to see the link where you had the problem with your rifle.

I hate to see anyone painted so broadly in such a manner. Your slamming all of the guys products when it is so plain see that he enjoys many. many satisfied customers. I don't how many rifles ORF has made but at a guess of 1000 rifles (which is a low guess I'm sure) 1% of that is 10 rifles.

I've read a couple of issues.

Your are not being reasonable and plainly have a personal vendetta.

Lastly I have never met the man when I bought mine , hell it was some young guy. I don't have any interest in this other than saying my rifle is great, shoots well and I am very satisfied for the money I spent for it.

Nuff' said.
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Old 06-08-2009, 06:13 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
If 1% defines crap than what are you implying about all the manufactured products in America? I'll bet GM would have an orgasm with 1%, lol
That would be the Bankrupt GM? Again, I don't IMPLY anything, I outright say it. If one has a defective product rate of more than 1 percent, they have shit for QC. And I picked 1% as an arbitrary number, my personal goal would be ZERO defective products shipped to customers.

It is your choice to find the defective fit of your AK dust cover "acceptable". That your gun works at all, is fortunate.

As you can see from the link above, ORF's "repair" of a fundamentally defective product is to modifgy the correct parts to fit their abortion receiver. You may find that "acceptable". I do not. Nor do my customers. But then, I've never striven to be the cheapest, only the best I can be.


It seems obvious you have an issue with ORF for whatever reason.


Is his dishonesty and defective products sufficient reason for me to have an "issue?"

I want to see the link where you had the problem with your rifle.

Have you read the review on my website and the intense discussion here?

I hate to see anyone painted so broadly in such a manner. Your slamming all of the guys products when it is so plain see that he enjoys many. many satisfied customers.

Obviously, you haven't been around much. Do a websearch and I think you'll find the "satisfied" customers are a minorityh.

Todd is 100% responsible for his reputation. If he was a great guy, I'd say so.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:57 PM   #30
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This is my last say and you can bash all you want.

If Gun plumber bought a defective rifle from ORF you should return it and get your money back.

Its as simple as that.

I Google'd ORF quality and several other phrases and while I found a couple of issues considering the 1000's of rifles sold I hardly find that condemning.

Lastly, there are laws that protect people when buying things. If one truely feels they have a defective product simply return it and take your business elsewhere.

Why accept a defective product?

Thats what I don't understand.

Now I am done, really....
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
This is my last say and you can bash all you want.

If Gun plumber bought a defective rifle from ORF you should return it and get your money back.

Its as simple as that.

I Google'd ORF quality and several other phrases and while I found a couple of issues considering the 1000's of rifles sold I hardly find that condemning.

Lastly, there are laws that protect people when buying things. If one truely feels they have a defective product simply return it and take your business elsewhere.

Why accept a defective product?

Thats what I don't understand.

Now I am done, really....
God, get off it guy... some people have good luck with Dodge rams, i, however, am convinced that they are crap. just because i see one that runs good doesn't mean they, on average, build a quality vehicle.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazuya
This is my last say and you can bash all you want.

If Gun plumber bought a defective rifle from ORF you should return it and get your money back.

Its as simple as that.

I Google'd ORF quality and several other phrases and while I found a couple of issues considering the 1000's of rifles sold I hardly find that condemning.

Lastly, there are laws that protect people when buying things. If one truely feels they have a defective product simply return it and take your business elsewhere.

Why accept a defective product?

Thats what I don't understand.

Now I am done, really....
Perhaps your google is broken...just saying.....Results 1 - 10 of about 161,000 for ohio rapid fire quality issues. (0.11 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...quality+issues
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:42 PM   #33
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It's either another shill or a truly ignorant person (even ignorant of how to ask proper questions of Google)
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdbrown1969
Perhaps your google is broken...just saying.....Results 1 - 10 of about 161,000 for ohio rapid fire quality issues. (0.11 seconds)

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...quality+issues
The 5th one down is praising ORF and the 7th is about jobs. Some of the posts are asking about ORF. All the hits you refer to are not all about ORF (not even 1%). and if you decided to actually read what your saying instead of making a "forum bite" you would know that.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:07 AM   #35
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I also ask you all to actually read the first 10 hits from Google. The first is this post and the following posts except for one praise ORF. One complained about his Galil receiver from 2004.

So if you want to condemn a man and his business with 1% have at it and I don't think it is even that high.

My rifle is great and judging from the private messages I get from this board others like them too.

p.s. they say some people here like to slam ORF for whatever reason.

Who could tell??
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