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Old 03-17-2009, 02:57 PM   #1
specopsscout
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Default Any reloaders in the audience?

.

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Old 03-18-2009, 12:46 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
spam cans running upwards of three hundred dollars plus shipping
I haven't seen that - yes, prices are climbing, but I can still get full tins for less than $85...

I guess that's why it's a "good idea" to buy enough ammo to "shoot the gun out", so you'll never need to reload for it...
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Old 03-18-2009, 01:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick
I haven't seen that - yes, prices are climbing, but I can still get full tins for less than $85...

I guess that's why it's a "good idea" to buy enough ammo to "shoot the gun out", so you'll never need to reload for it...
+1
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:04 AM   #4
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If anything start buying Private Partizan ammo bits at a time and save the brass. I think Wolf Gold is reloadable as well if you can find some.

I'm on another forum where there are a few people doing reloads for the 54R. Most are using Priv. Part. brass .311 bullets of some flavor, and some mil spec primers.
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Old 03-18-2009, 08:11 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
Hey Folks,
I just bought my first PSL, and since the supply of 7N1 seems to be spotty at best, with spam cans running upwards of three hundred dollars plus shipping, for those on Gunbroker and other places I've found
Respectfully,
Harry
Why limit yourself to 7N1 ammo?You can get steel core Bulgarian,Hungarian,Russian,Czech,Albanian,Polish, Yugo for anywhere from $70 a tin to $125 a tin.Save the 7N1 for sniping and shoot the rest for practice,td
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:11 PM   #6
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That is the funny thing about the PSL'S.What shoots best in mine might not be best in yours.I have found the Hungarian to shoot the best in mine and is most accurate.Others will say Czech others Bulgarian.The rifles seem to have there own taste buds when coming to ammo.If I were you I would puschase like 20 rounds of each and see what kind of accuracy you can achieve.You might just find the cheaper ammo shoots better,you might not does not hurt to try though,td





Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
Hey Guys,
I appreciate the advice, and I'm trying to be practical about the accuracy capability of the rifle, but with that said I'd like to ring as much accuracy as possible out of the system. If it's capable of running MOA or less on a diet of 7N1, then to my mind it just makes sense to run the best fuel in the system. I'd never run battle packs through my custom quarter MOA bolt gun, and look to this much the same way. It's kinda like big girls and spandex. Just cause they make it in your size(caliber) doesn't mean you should wear(shoot) it
If I am running the best ammo in my system, then it makes my practice more productive. When I shoot outside the known parameters of the system, then I know it was me and not the rifle or ammuntion that cause the flyer, group, ect. If I'm only shooting into a two or three MOA group, then I have no way of really knowing if I need improvements, and where...unless I REALLY blow a shot, which I try not to do too much anymore
As in all things, YMMV...
Respectfully,
Harry
PS
While we are on the subject, how badly do these rifles tear up brass? I've read they can be pretty rough on them, but if folks are reloading PP, then it sounds like it might have been overstated elsewhere. TIA...
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Old 03-18-2009, 10:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
Hey Guys,
I appreciate the advice, and I'm trying to be practical about the accuracy capability of the rifle, but with that said I'd like to ring as much accuracy as possible out of the system. If it's capable of running MOA or less on a diet of 7N1, then to my mind it just makes sense to run the best fuel in the system. I'd never run battle packs through my custom quarter MOA bolt gun, and look to this much the same way. It's kinda like big girls and spandex. Just cause they make it in your size(caliber) doesn't mean you should wear(shoot) it
If I am running the best ammo in my system, then it makes my practice more productive. When I shoot outside the known parameters of the system, then I know it was me and not the rifle or ammuntion that cause the flyer, group, ect. If I'm only shooting into a two or three MOA group, then I have no way of really knowing if I need improvements, and where...unless I REALLY blow a shot, which I try not to do too much anymore
As in all things, YMMV...
Respectfully,
Harry
PS
While we are on the subject, how badly do these rifles tear up brass? I've read they can be pretty rough on them, but if folks are reloading PP, then it sounds like it might have been overstated elsewhere. TIA...

I definitely agree with your view on accuracy. I am also looking into reloading. Although I will be running surplus light ball through My rifle, just when shooting at leisure with my pals. I hope to find a hand load for shooting paper at the range. I want to see what this monster can really do with a well loaded and weighed out piece of custom ammo.

With regards to the shredding of cases, If any one knows, does the PSL keep doing this after break in? I wonder if this is a result of the rifle being new. May simply be a case of rough machine work. I'm curious to see if it keeps shredding cartridges after 500 or 1000 rounds. She might just need the burs smooth out.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:33 PM   #8
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My romak beats up the brass, but fire reduced re-loads in m-38 for plinking fun and reform the brass!

I use Graf brass. Wolf gold is loaded by PRVI and is reloadable. Winchester white box metric is also good.


Cartridge: 7.62x54R
Max case length: 2.115" Trim-to length: 2.105" Case capacity: 57.9
Bullet diameter: 0.311" Max. COL: 2.875" Primer size: large rifle


Bullet name: Sierra SPT 2300
Diameter: 0.311" Weight: 150 grains
Length: 1.080" Ballistic Coeffient: 0.344
Sectional density: 0.222


Powder type: IMR 4895
Powder weight: 46.0 grains


Primer: CCI 200
Type: LR


Handload's COL: 2.875"
Muzzle velocity: 2700 (fps)

Notes: Romak III. Clover leaf 5 shot group @ 50
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:48 PM   #9
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While I can certainly see the point in wanting to shoot the best quality and performing ammo through a rifle, I feel that pretty much ANY of the light ball that some in the sealed tins is proper ammo for the PSL. It’s military ammo made for a military rifles – which the PSL is.

I have a Savage 10 FP that shoots under ½ MOA (If I do my part) and I would not shoot standard military loads through it. It only sees hand loads and the chamber is so tight that brass only needs to be neck-sized, and will no doubt last for MANY, many reloads. I shoot reloads in my M1A as well, but the brass needs to be trimmed and full-length resized after every firing and it does not last for as many loadings. I have little doubt that the PSL is much kinder to expelled brass.

So while I reload for almost all the calibers that I shoot, I do not reload for 7.62x54R or 7.62x39 as the cost of components exceeds the price that I can pay for a loaded ready-to-fire surplus round. With the cost of 7.62x51 NATO having gone past the “half-dollar per shot” barrier and components available to reload a custom round for equal or less – it only makes sense to reload for it. Given that 7.62x54R is .20 to .25 cents a pop and components are scarce and expensive, I think the better solution is to save your pennies and buy up as much surplus ammo as you can afford.
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Old 03-19-2009, 12:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer4570
Winchester white box metric is also good.
Winchester lists both of their 7.62x54R loads as having 180gr bullets. I havent tried any - so I don't know if it's as harsh as heavy-ball, but I'd probably shoot it out of a Mosin and reload it with a 147 - 150gr bullet before feeding it to my PSL..
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:58 PM   #11
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just got back from a little plinking session. we set up some empty soy sauce bottles at 150 yrds. the measurements of the bottles where 1 1/2 inches wide by 4 inches tall.
shooting bulgarian light ball, i was able to nail each one.
one shot one sploded soy sauce bottle. think that the bipod and 6x scope helped alot. i know thats not a crazy far distance, but they where small targets. the belomo scope is awsome.

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Old 03-19-2009, 06:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick
I haven't seen that - yes, prices are climbing, but I can still get full tins for less than $85...

I guess that's why it's a "good idea" to buy enough ammo to "shoot the gun out", so you'll never need to reload for it...
I'll buy you as many 7n1 tins as you want if you can find them for less than 85$.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bounce19712
I'll buy you as many 7n1 tins as you want if you can find them for less than 85$.

i think he meant tins of reg surplus.
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick
Winchester lists both of their 7.62x54R loads as having 180gr bullets. I havent tried any - so I don't know if it's as harsh as heavy-ball, but I'd probably shoot it out of a Mosin and reload it with a 147 - 150gr bullet before feeding it to my PSL..

Yeah, like a said, I'll get as much surplus as I can. But, I have read several range reports regarding the PSL, surplus ammo and hand loads. All point out the rifle get far better results through hand loads and even 7n1. So while the PSL is a military rifle, it is also a "sniper rifle" And yes I totally understand it aint no "U.S.Marines" sniper rifle or even a British sniper rile. It still remains a sniper rifle.

I simply think It is unfair to try to gauge the accuracy of this rifle with ammo that is clearly less accurate than the ammo that was intended to be shot through it.

Bottom line, I'll shoot surplus through her all day long. but still would like to take her out for some quality shooting range time. Ya know, treat her right every now and again!
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinemike
I simply think It is unfair to try to gauge the accuracy of this rifle with ammo that is clearly less accurate than the ammo that was intended to be shot through it.
OK, I'll give ya that. The PSL is Romanian sniper rifle – So what is the Romanian ammunition for this rifle?

It’s my understanding that the only 7N1 ammo that made it into the US was captured ammo (that came from places we’re not supposed to know about) – not any “Russian exported” for sale product. So, that said – what do the Romanians shoot in their PSL’s??? The PSL (unlike the Tigr) is a military-issue rifle. The only real difference is that the fuck-tards (AFBT-people) force the removal of the “safety-sear” (for US importation), even though the gun was never offered in a full-auto version.

I won’t debate that the PSL would shoot best with a custom-tuned hand load, because any rifle is like that.

My point is that the military doesn’t “work up hand loads” – so the rifles are made to specs which should permit reasonable accuracy with military ammo.
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:37 AM   #16
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Why exactly did this turn in to such a big to do about surplus ammo? This started out as a simple question. It is obvious that specopsscout is not satisfied with regular surplus. Some apparentley look at this like quantity is better than quality. Hey, I don't care if you want to spend alot of money on ammo that is not the best you can put down the tube. I'd rather have a little less ammo for the same money and know exactly where it is gonna hit. 7n1 - 7n14 is pretty much a hand load for sniper's. Also in regards to military not working up hand loads... Do you think they might consider you or someone else more expendible than what you or the other person thinks?

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Old 03-20-2009, 12:21 PM   #17
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You can buy surplus 0.310" 147 grain bullets here

http://www.patsreloading.com/patsrel/prices.htm
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:27 PM   #18
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I see where the OP is coming from. I have a limited supply of 7N1, and will certainly not go out blasting or plinking with it. Yesterday I ordered some Bulgarian ammo with no expectations of the results had with 7N1. It's nice to know what the rifle can do on a healthy diet every now and then. Once that sniper ammo dries up there will probably be no choice but to reload.

My PSL beats the snot out of spent casings, too...in fairly random locations. I've heard of many possible reasons/fixes, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:19 PM   #19
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Assuming your comments are direct towards me, I'll respond to a couple of points..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon
Why exactly did this turn in to such a big to do about surplus ammo? This started out as a simple question.
First off, there’s no big “to do” going on here.. I’m simply voicing some opinions on the most practical usage for the PSL. There are certainly FAR better choices in rifles if someone wants to hand load ammunition for maximum accuracy. The 7.62x54R is not a cartridge that has a very wide range of components to select from or reasonably priced (and available) brass. For people looking for an extra margin of accuracy, there are several good rifle choices in 7.62x51 – and it will be FAR and away cheaper and easier to reload for.

I’m simply saying the PSL is “what it is”, and that’s why I think about everyone here owns another rifle in another caliber. It seems that you’ve interpreted my comments as some kind of “negative input” for people that want to hand load the 54R, when nothing could be farther from the truth. I’m just attempting to raise issues of practicality that prospective reloaders may not have considered (ie: trying to help).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon
Also in regards to military not working up hand loads... Do you think they might consider you or someone else more expendible than what you or the other person thinks?
As far as the military not working up hand loads because they “consider me more expendable”, well that’s just plain ridiculous. The military quite simply does not have the time or financial means to find the perfect load for each individual rifle of a certain type. Nor do they have the capability to re-supply soldier’s rifles with custom ammo matched to a particular rifle. Instead, they develop ammunition that works “as best as possible” in a particular given rifle and press into service that one load.

On the other hand, we as civilians have the option of allocating our time and money to find the best loads for our rifles. I’m just making a case for getting the most out of one’s efforts and funds in pursuit of doing so.
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:22 PM   #20
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i have about 80 rnds of the 7n1. i had a 100 but gave one pack to a friend for his birthday. to this day ive never shot any of it. why? dont need to. its plenty accurate with milsurp ammo. when im shooting in excess of 300 yrds i use czech silver tip, but ive been hanging onto that, because its gotten harder to find.

in short im gonna go with best bang for the buck, wich is bulgarian light ball. still very accurate, and still available.
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:27 PM   #21
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Oh yeah, one of the things I neglected to mention that IS a big bonus for hand loading the 54R – would be the ability to shoot the heavier 180+gr bullets by down-loading the powder charge. Some folks that have fired “heavy ball” report excellent accuracy. Using a reduced charge could lessen the recoil impulse to equal that of the “light ball”.

This would make for an improved selection of usable projectiles as well.
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:31 PM   #22
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I only pointed out Winchester white box for the brass. I have a couple of boxes that I picked up after I bought my first Mosin, couldn't wait for the surplus order to arrive! Blasting Fun!!!!

It's generally recognized that handloads are more accurate due to the fact that most(?) people weigh individual powder loads out. Just eliminates one factor that can reduce accuracy. My .02
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:17 AM   #23
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Ah its just silly! Hey we all like to do our own thing. I bought the PSL for a few reasons. One, I'll get the shallowest reason out first, its cool looking. Two, it's BIG! And shoots big ammo. Three and probably the most appealing thing to me is that it is a Marksman's rifle.

Ive been shooting at rock corries all my life. I wanna see if i can get good at hitting bulls at distance. It just sound fun. I'm not sure I feel there's a right or wrong way to shoot.

so, to each there own.

Me? I say surplus and what ever you want ! Keep shooting guys!
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:21 AM   #24
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specopsscout here is the cheapest brass i can find

http://www.grafs.com/product/237513

and bullets

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/929

I'm not certain but .30 cal should work? please guys set me straight if this is incorrect.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:19 AM   #25
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The way my PSL tears up brass I would not reload fired brass.

What I have done with very good results is pull CZ or Russian surp and rebuild loads. I have tried Varget along with the surp powder and loaded Sierra Pro Hunters on top along with weighing individual bullets.

I have found that the powder charges vary quite a bit as well as bullet weights. If rebuilt with consistent weights for charges and bullets things will get better.

Putting Varget under Pro Hunters and things will get much better.

I find it difficult to shoot good groups based on the 4X scope and the reticle. I will post results on my latest batch when I get out.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldbull
The way my PSL tears up brass I would not reload fired brass.
For "all my negativity" - that was always my central point... I DO like the idea of pulling bullets and "re-loading" with your own powder & bullet. I plan to do this because I can use the left-over projo's for "plinking ammo" for my .303 Brit loads.

Somebody has to play "Devil's Advocate" - right???
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:11 AM   #27
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Quote:
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http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=125587471
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
Hey Guys,
Wow...look at the new member kicking up the beehive . I really appreiciate all the information provided and can appreciate both sides of the arguement.

Ultimately, it's all a mattter of perspective and what you want from your weapon system. Thank you for all the advice, links and the load mentioned. I'll be sure to check it out. Please keep em coming

Respectfully,
Harry
Heh.. Seems like "you're the new guy" - but people who really know, know that post-counts don't mean squat...

I guess even though it's you who's the new-guy, I should "welcome you over as an "old hand from SC"?

You might even remember me from over there (SC) - but after getting a "verbal beating" for using the term "azz-kicking", I decided that I'm just WAY too much of a "verbal hooligan" to post anything there anymore - as I'm not all into the "censorship thing".

I'm in NO way trying to discourage PSL owners from reloading - quite to the contrary. I just want to make all of the pitfalls surrounding such activities known.

If you want to buy expensive brass and reload - knowing the gun with "shread your investment" and you can afford to throw money at the pursuit - go to it...

I'm on your side whatever you choose.
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Old 03-23-2009, 09:51 AM   #29
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Most auto loading rifle tear up the brass pretty badly, especially with full power loads. Besides the ejection dents the cases are stretched a lot from being extracted so quickly while still expanded in the chamber. If there wasn't a great deal of force the rims wouldn't get so roughed up. Just think what is happening to the thinner parts of the cases. Of course some rifles are harder on cases than others. I like to load some accuracy. Sometimes to have certain bullets loaded and also to avoid the clean up mess of cleaning after corrosive ammo. Buying components in bulk can save a lot of money. The Czech silver tip light ball is good ammo but it also has very good powder that loads similarly to IMR-4895. I used to cases of it when it was cheap just to handload the powder in other ammo and sometimes I would use the bullets in plinking ammo. It's not so cheap these days to be worth buying just for the powder. It's hard to compare the savings when comparing surplus ammo to handloads but comparing commercial ammo to handloads you can still save money and have better quality.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:29 AM   #30
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About the only thing for the AK platform that helps is an case ejection buffer. It fits on the top receiver cover. There is a company that sells one that is a copy of the Finnish Valmet case buffer. The problem with the AK action is the type of gas system is the harshest. Long stroke gas piston. Short stroke gas piston like the SVD is the next gentlest and direct gas like the M-16 is the most gentle.

You can see a pic of the Valmet case buffer here

http://www.valmet.org/valmethunter.htm

and here

http://www.valmetweapons.com/Port_Buffer.html

and here

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/opfo...metbuffer1.jpg

http://home.hiwaay.net/~sickler/opfo...dgebuffers.jpg

After a quick check I'm not sure the other company is still making copies of the Valmet case buffer. You might be able to locate one or make a version of one.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:39 AM   #31
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This was who was selling the buffers.

http://www.robertrtg.com/valmetbuffer.html

http://www.robertrtg.com/

http://www.robertrtg.com/misc.html

Says he still has them for $45. I don't know how current that is.
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Old 03-23-2009, 11:40 AM   #32
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Yeah modifying the ejector is one way but you risk ruining it too.
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:04 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
Hey Guys,
And...unless someone else has done the mod described in the thread, I just ran up against a slight deadend for that option, in that Accurizer hasn't posted since 04 13 2007, isn't set up for messaging, and his email is disabled.
Respectfully,
Harry
I think he was banned or asked to leave. He made his PSL receiver from a bent blank and he may have had a factory Romanian one too.
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Old 03-23-2009, 04:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specopsscout
I have appreciated all the advice you've offerred and have taken it to heart.
Cool, I'm glad that you know where I'm coming from and these are just my honest opinions. I didn't want come off sounding like I was saying that you were "wrong" or something for wanting to reload for your PSL.

I reload much of the ammo that I shoot in other rifles and I actually bought my PSL to kind of to "take a vacation" from reloading and just enjoy shooting affordable high-power ammo.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:49 AM   #35
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In my limited reloading experiences with the PSL I have found that 51.0gr. alliant reloader 15 in winchester cases primed with CCI#34 milspec primers and a .312 hornady spirepoint loaded to the cannelure and slightly crimped shoots as well as 7N1 in my PSL (which was about 1 MOA)
The winchester cases can be found at a website called lock stock and barrel, they are PRIMED winchester cases for $41/100 so it`s a pretty good deal. I pop the primers and replace them with the CCI#34`s because I`m paranoid, you may not feel the need to do this and can save yourself a little money and time buying the pre-primed cases, not a bad deal for the $$
Graffs finally has 7.62x54r prvi brass in stock after a LOOOOONG hiatus, you might want to save your pennies and buy lots while they are available.
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