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Old 11-26-2008, 12:32 AM   #1
Utga Schleigle
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Default Barrel re-installance with 1/4" ALL THREAD **Pictures**

I am doing stuff step by step these days. So lots of pictures. If any one has a better way or different process please tell so the group and I can gain experince and learn.

I dugg my way into a hole and ripped my reciever open and I did no follow instructions.

1. You should prepare the trunion and barrel by deburring and burnishing the barrel and trunion with emery cloth or fine sand paper. Make sure newly installed trunion rivits clear barrel to prevent galling.

2. Put barrel assembly in freezer overnight and take it out an ememdiately insert.

3. Use anti-seize cream on trunion and barrel.

Basically shock waves saved my and got the barrel move-ing. I tired useing the air hammer but by then I had already ripped the reciver open and could not use the rear of the reciver as a support without more dammage.


First I made 3 plates to go the rear of my trunion. I did buy a sacraficesail bolt carrier, but I could not see destroying a good part. I made the plates so they would not harm the stock safety spurr on the rear of the bolt carrier.


Used a hand drill and miss drilled. Two 1/4" holes for bolt carrier spur and allthread. You can drill them straight and allign your slots / sides cuts accordingly.

will be continued out of time

More time!!! Photo bucket is giving me fitts.


cut slots with mini hack


Filed the slots clean


measured side knockes with receiver - if you cut center hole even cut on both sides.




Plates installed on rear of bolt carrier. Pictures show safety spur protected. Have more allthread sticking out of back end in case it snapps. You can then cut it off and try again.

more coming
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:27 AM   #2
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Hey good buddy. I love threads like this. They do a tremendous service to new builders. The all-thread method is perfect for AK-47 builds, but it doesn't work in an AK-74. The bores is too narrow. I gave this some thought over a period of 5 or so builds, and I decided that what I wanted to do was find something strong enough to handle 12 tons of pressure. It turns out that the feed ramp is exactly that. I know it's held on by only one rivet, but in over 20 builds it's only failed once, and I suspect the feed-ramp rivet was already questionable in that trunnion.

What I did was to buy one of those 36"x1"x1/8" steel pieces from Home Depot, and sliced it into 6" lengths. I took those, and I ground them, so they had waists. These I took and stacked inside the magazine well, so the waists allowed space for the lower and upper rails. I stacked four of them inside the magwell pressed against the feed ramp lip, and pressed the barrel in against them. This works very well, and it costs about $6.

I suggest that you follow Utga Schleigle's advice if you're building AK-47's. My method works for both 47s and 74s, and though you have to get a 12-ton press it does work in all cases.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:46 AM   #3
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Get 2 1/4' allthreads - 6 to 8 nuts - 6 small washers - 8 fender washers - all for 1/4"
You also need anti-seize packets and two wrenches. If you can find it a brass tube for allthreads.


one wrench at rear nut to stop the rod jumping.


Install cut off muzzel nut (shown later) then three to 4 fender washers and then small washers last the nut. Before tightening down to the last wipe rodd with anti-sieze just like barrel and trunion.


Start to tighten - makeing sure to align barrel and gas rod. As you tighten, if you hear the rodd sound like a piano wire ( PONG PING ) Stop.

This is the part that floored me. I could not get the barrel to move and in my frustration I start beating on things with a ball pein hammer. Then I remembered the shock waves and the barrel pinns. I tested hitting barrel assembly in different places and it started to move into the trunion. What worked the best was smacking the fender washers at the end of the barrel - make them sing. The vibration made the barrel move the most.



Just like the press and the barrel pinn - get assembly under pressure/stress and then send a shock wave thought the assembly = movement.


Make sure gas tube lines up. Another thing pictured here is the gas tube will tell you witch side of the barrel assembly or better yet fender washer to hitt. See there is more gapp on this side on gas rodd/tube - smack that side on barrel will move or move more than other sides. Also smack fender washer straight on / on edges to make the sing causing vibrations.

At times the barrel tweeked and put pressure on the gas tube indicating the area/side to smack. As you get close to the gas rodd entering the gas port do not dammage the face of the gas piston. Yes I pinched my finger also - in between this area.


Finally after long battle - lined up - probably will be easy if I follow the preparation direction next time.


Barrel installed not even a stratch to bolt carrier assembly.


Since I have US made muzzle nuts I hack saw a nut for this operation. I made sure to screw it on completely against the front sight block. I don't think leaving a gapp would be good.

I was in a hurry and F-upped, Please prepare and your won't as a cluster F as mine.

When the all thread broke the wrench flew out to some where and I cut my hand. Wear grinders google. Drink Beer to kill pain. Listen to rodd as you tighten - it will sound like a streched wire - stop use shock waves/vibrations.
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Last edited by Utga Schleigle; 11-26-2008 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:32 PM   #4
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I know I am a nagging nanny, BUTTT, when I looked in the mirror I had a cut on the tip of my nose. Plus a pinched finger - cut hand. Next time i will wear the face sheild. I did not were googles all the time.
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Old 11-26-2008, 08:31 PM   #5
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tried it - lasted 1-2 guns before I snapped the allthread. Tried it again, same thing.,

I do like it more than pressing from end of barrel or receiver, but there has to be a source of better allthread than home depot.

also doesn't hurt to lightly sand the barrel
Another reason that I think the air hammer method is absolutely better than all thread, pressing the receiver, or pressing the barrel, is that if you go too far, a few taps on the front of the trunion sets it back, and if the barrel is canted, a few taps on the side of the trunion straightens it out again. But you've gotta have an air compressor, a $150 3x tickle trigger hammer, a $10 brass tip.

All thread is definitely the least expensive, although not at all the easiest.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:11 PM   #6
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Man my Hat Is Off To You For Using That Drill Seriously. But I have to ask Where Does The Pepper Grinder Come In???
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:24 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John@JCDLESales
Man my Hat Is Off To You For Using That Drill Seriously. But I have to ask Where Does The Pepper Grinder Come In???
The peper grinder with three differ types of dry peper corn was on sale. Macroni Cheese 13oz zap dinner for $1 and too much peper and I am set for dinner. You really don't notice the saw dust in the food - more fiber.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
tried it - lasted 1-2 guns before I snapped the allthread. Tried it again, same thing.,

I do like it more than pressing from end of barrel or receiver, but there has to be a source of better allthread than home depot.

also doesn't hurt to lightly sand the barrel
Another reason that I think the air hammer method is absolutely better than all thread, pressing the receiver, or pressing the barrel, is that if you go too far, a few taps on the front of the trunion sets it back, and if the barrel is canted, a few taps on the side of the trunion straightens it out again. But you've gotta have an air compressor, a $150 3x tickle trigger hammer, a $10 brass tip.

All thread is definitely the least expensive, although not at all the easiest.
I agree - to my mind the air hammer is better. I cut off a air hammer bitt I ruined to make a flush steel bitt and used it on the cut off muzzel nut. I have aprox 1/128th of cant - I wanted to reduce the ammount of noise. I will try it next time, when I do not FUBAR the rest.

I will try to order hardened 1/4" inch allthread at the steel supplier near me. I hear that farmer supply places sometimes carry this.

I found that you that it is not necessary to get extreme presure on barrel to move it into trunion - but alignment and vibrations move it the most. Aprox 1/50th to 1/25th to 1/3 of 1mm at a time. Get enough tension then wack fender washers = movement.
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:03 AM   #9
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I've pressed one barrel in so far but would like to try all thread. I don't understand the role of the bolt carrier in this process though. What's that about?
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbob76
I've pressed one barrel in so far but would like to try all thread. I don't understand the role of the bolt carrier in this process though. What's that about?
The bolt carrier assembly hooks into and supports rear rear of the all thread and washers bolts. The best part is the hole in the bolt carrier group is lined up with the barrel and fitt into fron trunion. The only "bad" part is that the bolt carrier has the hammer saftey spur on the ass end of itself. Many builders would buy a junk bolt carrier and grind off the spur - then make a plate for the rear. I too cheap!! I bought the carrier cheap, but did not want to grind it down. I wanted to make a stack of plates that would protect the spur so I would destroy the carrier.

You use the carrier assembly without the rotory bolt and protect the muzzel and crown of barrel.

These are picture of another thread by a member/s - that I thought I had better save for my self.











This is for 7.62x39mm. Smaller ammoe will need airhammer or press instalation.

I will draw out plate/s and post measurements soon.
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
tried it - lasted 1-2 guns before I snapped the allthread. Tried it again, same thing.,

I do like it more than pressing from end of barrel or receiver, but there has to be a source of better allthread than home depot.

also doesn't hurt to lightly sand the barrel
Another reason that I think the air hammer method is absolutely better than all thread, pressing the receiver, or pressing the barrel, is that if you go too far, a few taps on the front of the trunion sets it back, and if the barrel is canted, a few taps on the side of the trunion straightens it out again. But you've gotta have an air compressor, a $150 3x tickle trigger hammer, a $10 brass tip.

All thread is definitely the least expensive, although not at all the easiest.
Mark, can you give us some advice on which brands carry an air hammer with the progressive trigger you speak of? I've looked around a little bit, and cant seem to find one that actually outright claims this as a feature.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:26 AM   #12
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Thanks for the clarification Utga.
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:50 AM   #13
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http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/4,3880.html
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:13 PM   #14
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Also notice the the other member reinforces their work bench especially under the vice. My vices / work benches are reinforced from below to promote even-ness for the vise base. When vise is under torqe and abuse the un-even-ness may promote the bench or vice breakage / vise base failure.
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:15 PM   #15
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The yard is a fantastic place to shop - I told them who referred me and that they should advertise on this forum. Let them know also.
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Old 11-29-2008, 05:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utga Schleigle
The yard is a fantastic place to shop - I told them who referred me and that they should advertise on this forum. Let them know also.
Did you buy a rivet set from there? What size do we need? I'd like to move up from the boltcutter squeezers I am using now.
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Old 11-29-2008, 10:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy
Did you buy a rivet set from there? What size do we need? I'd like to move up from the boltcutter squeezers I am using now.
I would get the small knock out set and 1/4 knock out punch. The Flush or flat Air Hammer bitts especially with brass tipp (I need to get this one). When buying the round head forming bitts, It is the shank size of the rivit their are discussing so buy a 5/32 size round head bitt. (DO NOT make the mistake I did and buy a 1/4" round head bitt that forms a 1/2" head )

Also I wanted to look at bitts that bend so Air hammer out the barrel.

I still use the hand punches I made and bolt cutter squisher on every thing except round heads. Next time I try try more Air Hammer.

I also modified this bitt for the trigger guard rivits - which the GunPlumber had on his build information on his websight. Visit that and you will some great ideas.


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Old 12-10-2008, 12:24 AM   #18
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Have been having problems with Photo bucket and my old OS - switched hosts.

Here is picture of plate.

http://img199.imagevenue.com/img.php..._122_342lo.jpg



[img=http://img199.imagevenue.com/loc342/th_83741_100_6956_wtf_122_342lo.jpg]

Bite for extractor was added on.
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:56 PM   #19
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Got squared away on Photobucket,

Test


{edit - 08-17-2010}
Forget the ejector notch on the left side - just drill holes cut slot and make side stepps - buy only gray or blue steel - no white weak metal.{END EDIT}
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:51 AM   #20
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i tried this a couple of builds back

and before attempting it i measure my trunnion and my barrel journal and had a .0025 interference fit

the sad thing is that the 1/4 rod snapped.

the agi video dude does it and i see you people doing it

i think the problem may be in the fit of the barrel and trunnion.

can someone please that the time to measure and post them.

i think a .003 fit is to much for this method i think that the the fit is more around .001
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:59 PM   #21
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I tried it too, even bought some high strength all thread from Fastner. The problem I had was the bolt carrier kept wanting to ride up over the trunion, but I didn't have the rear sight block installed on the virgin barrel I was installing so that may have been my downfall. Ended up buying a press.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber
tried it - lasted 1-2 guns before I snapped the allthread. Tried it again, same thing.,

I do like it more than pressing from end of barrel or receiver, but there has to be a source of better allthread than home depot.
.....
There is. Regular hardware store all-thread is grade 2. You can get grade 8 all-thread at Fastenal or other specialty fastener stores.
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cymax
i tried this a couple of builds back

and before attempting it i measure my trunnion and my barrel journal and had a .0025 interference fit

the sad thing is that the 1/4 rod snapped.

the agi video dude does it and i see you people doing it

i think the problem may be in the fit of the barrel and trunnion.

can someone please that the time to measure and post them.

i think a .003 fit is to much for this method i think that the the fit is more around .001
Mine snapped also. Question ???? Where in the rodd did it break on yours. Mine snapped at the near the muzzel where I was turning the bolt. That is were there vibrations or shock waves come in - shock wave = movement.

Some thing I noticed in the pictures of the others, that they threaded some rodd. I threaded some .25" rodd for a carring handle project and was impressed how it hardened. Next time I will make one of these and give it a whirl.


Forgot to post this picture. Hotice threaded rodd and dark threads - probable heat treating and/or axle grease.

Although this should help - it probably won't stopp all the risk of snapping the rodd. I still feel get under pressure then wack the hammer to get vibration/shock waves.
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:54 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL-AK
There is. Regular hardware store all-thread is grade 2. You can get grade 8 all-thread at Fastenal or other specialty fastener stores.

Mine was cheap all thrad. I will check them out.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utga Schleigle
I would get the small knock out set and 1/4 knock out punch. The Flush or flat Air Hammer bitts especially with brass tipp (I need to get this one). When buying the round head forming bitts, It is the shank size of the rivit their are discussing so buy a 5/32 size round head bitt. (DO NOT make the mistake I did and buy a 1/4" round head bitt that forms a 1/2" head )

Also I wanted to look at bitts that bend so Air hammer out the barrel.

I still use the hand punches I made and bolt cutter squisher on every thing except round heads. Next time I try try more Air Hammer.

I also modified this bitt for the trigger guard rivits - which the GunPlumber had on his build information on his websight. Visit that and you will some great ideas.



(DO NOT make the mistake I did and buy a 1/4" round head bitt that forms a 1/2" head )


Picture of cupp of the bitt to form round head for 5/32 rivit shank. Available from the YARD. Bitt #3 lower picture.


I found the picture of bitts. Buy bitt #3 not #4. #3 round head bitt for 5/32 rivit shank. NONO #4 for .25 rivit shank.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:01 AM   #26
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sorry for the delay in my reply my rod broke in the barrel
about half way

checking with my eng. book ( i am majoring in Mech eng. )
the type of fit that we are using is considered permanent

i think that budy's kit in the agi video had much less of an interferance fit

if u want to know the force for your press fit application
chek this out

http://www.engineersedge.com/manufac..._fit_force.htm
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:35 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cymax
sorry for the delay in my reply my rod broke in the barrel
about half way

checking with my eng. book ( i am majoring in Mech eng. )
the type of fit that we are using is considered permanent

i think that budy's kit in the agi video had much less of an interferance fit

if u want to know the force for your press fit application
chek this out

http://www.engineersedge.com/manufac..._fit_force.htm
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71133

Broken rodds and this above thread got me thinking about this again. My rodd snapped also. SO better stronger rodd. I thought the solid rodd threaded would be stronger and get some oil tempering on the rodd 1/4inch.

The GunPlubmer solution is probly the best for 7.62x39 or 7.62x54r or 5.45x39 but I am not giving up on rodds totally.

{GunPlubmer Picture}



Modified bolt carrier welded on there - for pushing barrel assembly on to receiver assembly with an aire hammer - barrel braced in vice and receiver pushed with air hammer.

My though was a convertable plates useing UN-modified bolt carrier.

LOTTZ more tomarrow - wifes says bed time for BOZO.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:17 AM   #28
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I use grade 8 threaded rod(black in color) ,I haven't had any break yet.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:00 AM   #29
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I broke several rods too before deciding to try something else. Now in the 500 guns I've used this 7.62 carrier on, and the 100 guns I used the 5.45 carrier on, the steel rod portion has broken off and been rewelded 3 times and 2 times respectively. Right now the "rod" is a piece of barrel section.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:13 PM   #30
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Ya first the rodd - 8 grade all thread I will look for it.

This would be for 7.62 guns. The bore being large enought to accept the 1/4 rodd.

For a 16" "standard" sized AKM barrel. With the bolts, washers, boltcarrier, and the barrel assembly fully out of the reciever assembly A rodd of 2foot 24" should work well. So 24" of unthreaded rodd.

Tapp mininum 4" - best tapp 5" inches each side of rod. This way if rodd snaps and there is a small ammount of thead on one side you still have a usable rodd. It is dought full that the rodd would snapp in the UNthreaded spott, because the weakest part sould be the threaded section.

Remember that - just get assemblies under joining tension - the shock wave = movement. If you use only tension you will snap the rodd.

Oil hardening should help the threaded section be stronger. BUTT you can snapp anything given enougth pressure and abuse.


Thread 1/4 rodd - use thread/cutting oil - clean off shaving and oil as you go.


OIL tempering - THIS is the part I need more knowledge.
Luckily even one in my ally is throwing away used motor oil. I tought the more carbonned up dirty nasty oil the better. So I dipped the threaded end in the yucky oil - used a mapp torch to burn off oil and get as hot as I could - and quenched in dirty oil. Giving me this.





I got a blacksmithing manual that said the quelch should heavily salted salt water {I was going to throw in some vinagar too}. Then rinse throughly in regular water.
The blacksmith maual said to let the water set for a day to deOXGENate it - in therory stagnant qwelch water was better. Less bubbles - plung and move peice for cooler water - more even temper.

So next time for rodd.

Dipp in yuck oil.
Powder with coffee grounds and tobacco.
Burn off yuck oil batter - Get red hot.
Qwelch in stagnant super salt water.

Looking for any suggestions for better method or techniques
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:34 PM   #31
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Default Conertable plates.

NEXT are the plates for the rear of the bolt carrier.

I wanted to get to the what the GunPlubmer used so for somany guns. He welded a plate to the ass end of a bolt carrier removing the safety spurr and piston end.

{GunPlubmer Picture}


But I did not want to waste a bolt carrier. If you are making one or two guns and were not looking to make up a huge workshopp, makeable support plates could be made.

These plate SHOULD {I will get to the should apart in a minute} work with both methods air hammer from rear and hardened all thread from the front.

First the plates.

3 - 1" wide by 1 & 3/4" by 1/8 thick gray steel stock. Try not to get weaker white galvanised metal - gray or blue steel. {I bent one white metal plate - Yes I will showo F-ups}.


do not buy this crapp - whit metal - measured out.


laid out - better stronger design next - forget the ejector slot.


Drill only three holes - ends and one center use mini hack to complete slot and get ready for hand file.


Too many holes and drill bitt starting to walk and slide to one side. {Accident coming up}


Broken bitted flung into wall - Yes I was wearing safety goggles but not face sheild.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:43 PM   #32
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cut out slot - mini hack {note blue steel metal stock}


Make sure 1/4 bolt fitts all of slot - safety spurr os 1/4" also.




Problem - too weak - cut too deep with hack saw


weak piont - next blue steel plate no ejector slott


weakness point - careful cutting with hack saw.

Will draw out stronger plates lator - all you have to do with above drawing is forget the extra chomp for ejector slot.

Ok you got three plates
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:49 PM   #33
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installed out side the gun so you can see where I am going with this.
Three plates - 4 standard 1/4 wasers - ONE 3" 1/4" bolt - 1/4" nut.



Lets install it in the reciever.

First - with no bolt in bolt carrier YET put carrier in reciver/trunion assembly - push carrier just up to center support rivit - with two washers on 3"bolt install into rotory bolt hole in carrier through magazine port. Then push carrier up to trunion hold bolt and washers in place.



Next turn reciever assembly over - install plates one at a time over safety spurr on bolt IN FRONT - FORWARD OF CENTER SUPPORT RIVIT!!!!!! next to end of bolt carrier. Look at above pcture



Put 2 more 1/4 washers on bolt end and 1/4 nut - tighten.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:12 PM   #34
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installed



Wear protective safty gear of your choice.

Now prepp barrel assembly for aire hammer - freeze barrel - antisieze ointment - brace barrel in vise or support to resist forward movement of reciever assemblies. Putt anti sieze inside trunion.

{edit} I looked again at the Gun Plubmer site for exactly were he clamps the barrel into the vice with aluminum blocks - I did not see a direct picture - BUTT I ASSuME it is just in front of the Rear sight assembly - I am not vertain - check as you go that you do ot crush barrel or smushh sight assembly}
{Ende edit}

Useing AIR hammer and flush/brass end/pusher end bitt. Line up assembles and hammer on plates near 1/4" bolt.

Go slow and check alignment and if 1/4" bolt is loose from vibration.

The GunPlubmer has a tickle trigger on his air hammer to make slight adjustments easy. So if you the $15 Auto Zone WILDE thang - maybe turn down the outlet pressure of your compressor to 5- tp 70 psi.

The air hammer is 40 percent shock wave so no shock waves need to be added and rest is screamen trouque.



Check and hammer assemblies together untill barrel pinn hole lines up.


Now because your piston is on you bolt carrrier watch out - when the gas port and piston line up - you can bend and/or Fup piston and gas port.



I would use the brass or a square steel air hammer bitt - I made a flush one also - cut off a cheap bitt flatt and smooth.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:37 PM   #35
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For the 7.62 allthread method see above instructions - it is all the same except a stronger all thread rodd.

1 all thread rodd
4 1/4" fender washers
2 1/4" standard washers
2 to 4 1/4" bolts
1 cut off - OEM slant barrel muzzel end


cu off at tip - righ at bend of slant - leave enough to protect muzzle and leave the threading on muzzel device.


cut off smooth and dress with file


Most of us buy a US made slant attachment or a US made muzzel device so the Romanain OEM device is scrap or a part of your plann.

support assemblies as you tighten allthread and bolt - DO NOT SMASH RIVIT HEADS on reciever like I did.



This wrench can fly off across the room.



Get under tension and send a shock wave though and get 2mm of movement. You will hear rodd as it gets under tention - it will make sounds like a tightening music wire. These sounds are a indickation that it is under enough tension to move with the rapp of the hand hammer.
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