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Old 10-29-2008, 07:55 AM   #1
maineshops
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Default cast bullets

can you use cast bullets in a psl or ak? some folks think it is a no no in an m1 carbine.
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:14 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maineshops
can you use cast bullets in a psl or ak? some folks think it is a no no in an m1 carbine.
you can use hardened cast bullets in the 7.62 ak, if you can get them to feed. gas checks may be needed depending on load.

i'm not sure but i think the 54r in the psl would be to hot for even hardened and gas checked cast bullets. fouling and poor acurracy would be the result. but i am not sure and have not tried them.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:27 AM   #3
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CE "Ed" Harris designed a cast bullet for the 7.62x39 and worked up a lot of data for it that he has updated over the years. The bullet mold was originally made by NEI, when they went out of business he gave the design to Lee which changed it slightly to make it their own design. NEI is now back in business and both the original design and the Lee design bullet molds are available.

I'll try to shorten his info and try to keep the data to the most up to date.

From bob Horn 1995

Quote:
Subject: 7. Cast Bullets

The only cast bullet moulds truly proper for the 7.62x39 are those based
on C.E. Harris's 52A design for NEI. Following the demise of that
company, Harris made the design available to Lee, which produces moulds
as their 312-155-2R and TL312-160-2R designs. Now that NEI is back in
business (51583 Columbia River Hwy., Scappoose, OR 97056, USA) Walt
Melander can provide Harris's original 52A design.

Gas port fouling with self-loading rifles is surprisingly light. The
gas piston of SKS and AK-derived rifles will foul, but this is readily
taken care of with a little steel wool, Marvel Mystery Oil (or Dexron
IIe/III Automatic Transmission Fluid), and elbow grease. Harris has
reported that fouling with the Ruger Mini-30 was only a problem during
endurance testing.
Quote:
Handloads With NEI 52A or Lee 312-155-2R/TL312-160-2R Cast Bullet
Source: C.E. Harris

Starting loads:

Powder Charge
---------------------------------
2400 15.0 grs.
IMR or Hodgdon 4227 16.0 grs.
IMR or Hodgdon 4198 20.0 grs.
RL-7 21.5 grs.

Miscellaneous:

Powder Charge Vel (20.5" Remarks
bbl SKS)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
14.5-15.5 grs. 2400 Cast of wheel weights, sized
.312", good "I want to shoot NOW"
load. Consider 15.5 grs. Max.
16 grs. AA1680 1420 fps
18 grs. AA1680 1630 fps
20 grs. AA1680 Maximum load
18 grs. Olin 680** 1810 fps
19 grs. Olin 680** 1930 fps Maximum load
21.0-22.0 grs. RL-7 1900-1950 fps

28 grs. AA2230 around 2000 fps
28 grs. AA2460 "
28 grs. H335 "

** Discontinued

162-gr. cast from wheel weight alloy, no gas check:

Powder Charge
---------------------------------------------
4227 12-14 grs.
AA1680 15.0-16.0 grs.
4198 or RL-7 17.0 grs.
4895 18.0 grs.
Quote:
Practical Dope on the 7.62x39

By C.E. Harris—Updated 3-27-94

I have reloaded thousands of rounds of 7.62X39 ammunition with both cast bullets and jacketed, in the AK and the SKS. I got frustrated with the AK as accuracy of these seems is generally poor, at best about 5-6" at 100 yards. The SKS is more reasonable, about 3-4" and is still a real bargain these days. Most SKS rifles group better with cast bullets than they do with ball ammunition. If you are new to cast bullet shooting or not inclined to do a lot
of experimenting, I recommend 14.5-15.5 grs. of Hercules #2400 with the Lee .312-155-2R bullet, cast of wheel weights and sized .312". With this load the rifle functions like the proverbial pony trotting, and dumps the cases right
at your feet! You can also try 18-21 grs. of 4198 or 16-18 grs. of 4227 with any bullet from 122-125 grs.

The gas ports on these guns are larger than they need to be for reliable functioning. Lead fouling of the gas port is not a problem, but the gas piston and cylinder will foul, which can affect functioning if neglected. The gas
piston should be removed and cleaned with Break Free, Marvel Mystery Oil or Dexron IIe ATF and 000 steel wool after each use, and the gas cylinder scrubbed with a shotgun bore brush. Liberally lubricating with Break Free,
Marvel Mystery Oil or Dexron prior to reassembly eases the fouling problem.

You can fire several hundred rounds between cleanings if you avoid super heating the rifle with rapid fire so that the barrel becomes too hot to hold in the bare hand. If you do so, and let the rifle cool without stripping and cleaning it immediately it will be difficult to disassemble!

I have not found lead fouling to be a problem in ordinary National Match Course style firing, but only in factory endurance tests of the Ruger Mini Thirty when I was at Ruger. Ruger does not recommend handloads of any type. Therefore, they don't recommend cast bullets at all. However, in my experience cast loads about 1 grain heavier than the minimum which cycle an SKS or AK will work in the
Ruger. These pose no real functional problem as long as the gas piston and its recess in the slide handle are kept clean and well lubricated. The only common cast bullet designs which are correct for the my original NEI designs
for this caliber and the Lee .312-155-2R and TL.312-160-2R. The latter two are adaptations of my original NEI design with minor changes to suit Lee's manufacturing process, and to change the appearance slightly so the Lee version would have a distinct "product identity." Now that NEI is back in business (51583 Columbia River Hwy., Scappoose, OR 97056) Walt Melander can provide my original 52A design with its 1-1/2-degree tapered forepart or a stepped-diameter design similar to Lee's adaption, but with a blunter nose shape which is better for hunting. Accuracy-wise there is no difference between them. I designed these bullets with the intent to have the heaviest bullet which could be loaded without the GC poking into the powder space, and which would be big enough on the forepart to fill the large throats on the AK and SKS, as well as in the 7.62x54R Russian, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, etc Use of a heavier bullet is also better suited for the typical 10-inch twist rates of 7.62x39 barrels. These bullets have only one grease groove, (which is enough) and a substantial crimp groove .26" from the base. The rear driving band casts .312", the front band .310" and the forepart ahead of the crimp groove is .308." The ogival radius starts from this point in order to maximize bearing length. These bullets have proven very accurate in a variety of military rifles for
target work at up to 200 yards. They out shoots ball ammo in the SKS or AK with any reasonable load. In a bolt- action target rifle they are capable of 1-1/4" 10-shot groups at 100 yards, and in a 2-groove 03A3 Springfield or M1917 Enfield they average around 2 moa ten-shot groups at 200 yards with iron sights, with refined loads.

I use 1 part of linotype to five parts of wheel weight metal for competition in my .30-'06 M1917 Enfield and M1903 Springfields up to 200 yards with 16 grs. of #2400, 20 grs. of 4227, 13 grs. of Red Dot or 12 grs. of 700-X. Accuracy of these light cast bullet loads is far better than Ball M2 service ammunition. I use the same charges in the .303 British and 7.62x54R Russian as well. I fill the grease grooves with 50-50 Alox beeswax (Lee brand) then tumble Lee Liquid Alox on for a light golden overcoat. These
loads don't lead for continuous use over the National Match Course, even over double-strings of rapid-fire.
Above 1800 f.p.s. I use the same alloy, but cast the bullets "hot" until they are uniformly frosted, then quench them directly from the mould. The heattreated, double-lubed bullets will stand 2000 fps. in wheelweight alloy
without leading, if shot straight from the mould without sizing, being GC'ed in a .313" die. A caseful (28 grs.) of Accurate 2230, 2460, or H335 gives around 2000 f.p.s. in the 7.62x39.

Accurate Arms 1680 is very similar to the Olin 680 Ball powder, though slightly slower. Both of these powders are used in 7.62x39 ball ammunition, with a charge of 24 grs. being correct for service velocities with 123-gr. jacketed bullets using the Accurate-IMI propellant, and 23 grs. for the slightly faster Olin powder. For a full-power load approximating service ammunition you can also use 26.5 grs. of RL-7 or 25.0 grs. of IMR or H4198. With cast bullets the minimum load with 1680 which functions the SKS with the Lee .312-155-2R is 16 grs. In the SKS this produces about 1420 f.p.s. and 3" groups at 100 yds.; 18 grs. gives 1630 f.p.s. and 4" groups in the SKS. I did two strings with the Olin 680 for comparison with the NEI 155-gr. cast bullet at 18 and 19 grs., respectively, which gave 1810 and 1930 f.p.s. I would not exceed 19 grs. of Olin 680, or 20 grs. of Accurate 1680 with the 155-gr. cast bullet, as these are both full loads.
From NoDakJak - 2008

Quote:
Substituting Lil Gun for 2400 has cut my group sizes considerably. 16 1/2 grains of 1680 behind the Lee boolit has been my el primo load up to this time.
Most up to date info from Ed Harris - 2008

Quote:
In the SKS start with 11 grs. of #2400 and increase the load gradually until you get reliable function. Do not exceed 15 grains of #2400. You can work similarly within the range of 13-18 grs. of 4227, 16-22 grs. of 4198, 18-24 grs. of RL-7
Best info from Ed Harris for case mouth expander for cast bullets.

Quote:
For the short neck on the 7.62x39 a .32 ACP expander plug works perfectly for expanding and flaring.

RCBS .32 ACP Expander Die $16.79 at Midway

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...781&t=11082005
http://www.neihandtools.com/
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Last edited by allesennogwat; 10-29-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:21 PM   #4
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The M1 Carbine gas system may be more sensitive to lead fouling than the AK but I think most warnings against using cast bullets is that the cartridge doesn't headspace on the shoulder or the rim and the lead can build up at the case mouth and effect headspace.
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