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Old 02-09-2007, 10:55 AM   #1
rbthntr64
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Angry BATF Confescating CZ26 parts sold by Centerfire systems

Posted by Pirate56;
"I read this on another forum. apparently they are not happy with the demill.
http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6059"


Wonder how much other info was given. I don't understand how this was an approved by BATF demill and now it isn't.
Got my letter today. Waiting for a call back from Shane the Owner. I want a credit and going to send requested parts to the ATF boy in Lexington and the rest of the related parts and magazines back to Centerfire. Anyone in for a class action lawsuit to get our money back?
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Old 02-15-2007, 01:33 PM   #2
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Why would you get a credit? Centerfire sold you something that was perfectly legal at the time, and unless they knew this was coming, they have no obligation in this matter.

It's your government that's jacking you around.

Now, you can ask WTF does centerfire keep customer records on file and hand them out without a warrant.
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Old 02-15-2007, 03:16 PM   #3
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A class action law suit against uncle sam, your ballsy!

Go for it.....

-myers
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:39 PM   #4
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ah jeeze .....another one that has blown the thing all out of proportion, the ATF does not want your entire parts kit they just want the cut receiver piece, so don't get yours and everybody else's panties all in a bunch over nothing. those receiver parts are uselss to you, you would have thrown them away anyways........unless you had the idea of welding them back together and make a unregistered MG.

they did the same thing with cut FAL receiver pieces........they didn't want the entire parts kits, just those cut receiver pieces.


if you don't have those reciever pieces, there is a form you sign saying you don't have them.
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Last edited by 16r40; 02-15-2007 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:26 PM   #5
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OMG the sky is falling....the sky is falling....

Chill dude the parts were not legally useful anyways....
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:21 PM   #6
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Sure, but I still won't buy from them since they're keeping unrequired customer records and don't mind giving that info out without the slightest concern for their customers right to privacy.

In this specific example, it may not be an issue to anyone who doesn't have crimminal intent anyway--but I'm concerned about their philosophy on customer relations and privacy. I don't expect that to be a big deal to everyone, but it is to me. To each his own.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:13 AM   #7
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I am amazed at all the ill will directed at Centerfire for "rolling over on their customers". Centerfire, like all business entities, is required to keep records of sales. The friendly folks at the IRS have been known to do something called an audit. They are not amused when you can't produce an accurate record of what you sold. State revenue collectors are also interested in those records as well, they like to check and make sure sales taxes have been paid. IIRC, the standard practice is to retain sales records for at least 7 years as that is how far back they can audit you. Back in the day when the records were boxes full of paper invoices, it was common practice to toss them when you no longer were required to keep them. Nowdays with computerized records there is no reason to do so as the cost of a super large harddrive and a couple tape backups is negligible. As long as you aren't "cooking the books", from a business standpoint retaining records forever is a good idea. You may never need to access them, but better to have that option, especially if the cost is a few hundred bucks to do so.

Additionally, Centerfire is an FFL holder. They do business at the pleasure of ATF. They are required by federal law to allow ATF to inspect their firearms sales records once per year without any additional subpeonas or warrants of any kind. This is a condition of the license. Refuse, and they get a rubber stamped warrant in a few hours and the visit might not be so friendly. Guess what, ATF reclassified those "non gun" kits as firearms, so those sales records are now accessible by them just like their "real" gun sales.

In todays legal environment where the Patriot Act lets the FBI bypass warrants with a simple form letter, getting authorization to search ALL their records is easier than ordering a pizza. With this situation, ATF comes a calling to your firearm business, you open the door and let them in or you won't be in business much longer. How many people are similarly PO'd at their local dealer for letting ATF inspect and copy his records? It happens on a regular basis these days, yet I don't hear many people complain that "Joes gun shop is selling them out, I'll never buy from them again!"

ATF is the entity you all should be directing your feelings against. Our Representatives and Senators control their budget, complain loudly and often enough to them and maybe they just might be made to realize how much of that budget is being wasted collecting worthless pieces of steel. You can be sure when ATF asks for money they will tell congress they confiscated 25,000 illegal machine guns last year and that's why they needed to spend so much in overtime, travel expenses, etc. You and I know most of those were simply scraps of useless steel collected from kit buyers, the trick is to make the keepers of the $$$ realize this as well. Maybe then it will stop.
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:20 PM   #8
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KernelKrink, don't go putting in logic and the way things are, these folks are on a knee-jerk reaction mission.

liberals aren't the only ones that are afflicted with knee-jerkitis, you have a awful lot of right wingnuts afflicted with this disease as well
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:42 PM   #9
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I have bought rifles,shotguns,pistols and receivers from Centerfire in the past and will continue. Like the saying about closing the gate after the cow gets out. Besides that would drive another gun dealer out of business, just like the gun ban bunch would like. Less gun dealer's-less guns-less places to buy ammo. Think about it.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:15 PM   #10
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I agree that the ATF are the apparent incompentents in this matter.

But...The IRS didn't ask to see the records, the ATF did. And the ATF didn't ask for records that are required to be kept in matters that pertain to them. Centerfire has been "responding" on another thread, but avoiding answering to this.

And you can sling your snazzy little catch phrases around to make your position seem more valid if it thinks it help, 16r40, but I find it damn disrespectful. At least KernalKrink has a reasonable explanation for their actions and is actually contributing to the discussion. I value my privacy.

XSapper also has a valid point of not wanting to drive a dealer out of business--I can respect that. I still don't like the smell of the whole situation, from start to finish.
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:41 AM   #11
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Gunbug, the bottom line is all business entities have to keep sales records, it is not an option. If you ran a business that supported your family and the dozens of employees who work for you, would you risk throwing all that away by refusing to show a federal agency something they can easily get a warrant to see anyway? Remember, technically Centerfire sold many "machine guns" without any transfer paperwork, they could be charged with a crime if they wanted to push things. They might never convict them, but after 2-3 years of paying a team of lawyers they won't be celebrating their "win" either.

Lets say the head of Centerfire decided to refuse ATF's request to see his sales records, like most everybody who is complaining seems to think he should have done. What would be the result? An ATF agent would simply fill out an affidavit attesting to the fact that Centerfire sold "illegal machine guns" to hundreds or even thousands of people and is refusing to say who bought them. The Judge will sign off on a warrant and 3 hours after the initial refusal the owner of Centerfire has no option but to show them the records or go to jail for obstruction of justice. Best case scenario, everybody shakes hands now that the legal formailities are out of the way and a polite exchange of info ensues. But what about the worst case scenario?

This time when they come to visit, the agents might be a little perturbed that their authority was resisted by Centerfire and decide maybe they need to be made an example of. This time, instead of just logging onto their computer system and downloading the info to a disk, they decide to seize their records, computers, maybe even every single scrap of paper in the place as potential "evidence" and keep it until the investigation is over. Oh my, they have crates and crates of other potential "illegal machine guns" stored in the warehouse, better confiscate all those as well, maybe some of them could be determined to be demilled improperly. Maybe a few guys in suits isn't deemed intimidating enough, so they go in in full Elliot Ness mode, smashing things as they go and search the premises in full Ninja regalia.

Final result, they still get the info, their customers will be getting a letter or visit from ATF instead of Centerfire, and the folks at Centerfire are left to pick up the pieces and try to stay in business with whatever ATF decides to leave them with.
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Old 02-19-2007, 10:05 AM   #12
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KernalKrink--you (as always) make perfect sense.

My lack of knowledge in matter is why I had asked for clarification from centerfire (politely), which they've ignored.

I still don't like the situation--but you've made a solid case and I guess I'll reconsider the purchase of that galil from CFS.
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM   #13
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Remember those FBI letters I referred to earlier? It is a federal crime to reveal you got one! CFS may not be responding because they legally can't. It's a bad situation for everybody involved, I think we can all agree on that at least.

Yoda, as I understand it, all ATF wants is the kit owner to mail them the pieces of the receiver that were included in the kits. Unless you were planning to do a reweld build, these pieces would be removed and scrapped anyway. A few bucks postage and a half hour with the Dremel and ATF is satisfied. I suspect even the most hard headed ATF agent realizes these scrap steel pieces are by no stretch of the imagination a "machine gun". The most likely scenario is they need to get their statistics beefed up before the new congress starts reviewing their budget. A few days work and some letters nets them hundreds or even thousands of "seized machine guns" to show on their books.
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16r40
ah jeeze .....another one that has blown the thing all out of proportion, the ATF does not want your entire parts kit they just want the cut receiver piece, so don't get yours and everybody else's panties all in a bunch over nothing. those receiver parts are uselss to you, you would have thrown them away anyways........unless you had the idea of welding them back together and make a unregistered MG..
no, they want the receiver tube peices and the parts welded to them, front and rear sights and the internal part of the PG. that is problematic if tyou want to build something from the kit.

CFS told me clearly they wont reimburse anyone. my opinion is that this falls to them, az they sold improperly disassembled kits. if they then want to pass the buck to their distributor, fine, but their customers shouldnt be out hundreds of dollars for a bolt and some furniture.

i have been saying it for years here: CFS is run by theives. do not do business with them. i have learned this the hard way. but yes they occasionally offer very good deals, and rarely actually deliver, so the optimistic buyer says "well maybe it will work out THIS time. just like with joeken a few years back.

and i agree with someone above, why were they keeping these records? the irs wants to see numbers, not names. i asked about this directly and was given an answer that i know to be an outright lie.
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:58 PM   #15
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"i asked about this directly and was given an answer that i know to be an outright lie."

Well, what was it?

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