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Old 05-25-2014, 02:37 PM   #1
LESchwartz
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Default Yugo M77, NPAP, OPAP Optics (consolidated thread)

Guys,

The PAP series use a rail that's is in a strange position. None of the standard Russian optics mounts are going to work very well -- they either end up way too high, way too far rearward, or both. As of 03/09/2015, the choices basically boil down to these three:

1) If you're handy, you can modify the clone of the Midwest Industries generic AK optic mount being sold on eBay. Some folks have also modified the authentic MI mount, but I personally think that the clone is a better choice since it looks like the clone grips better after the modification. Not as low as option #2, but works great with scopes -- especially those with larger bells.

2) Midwest Industries makes an authentic NPAP mount. It seems to sit exactly like the mount seems to the modified clone mount. Kind of pricey, but it should work for folks who want a turnkey solution. However, I still have concerns with the way the clamp grips.

3) Use the RS Regulate mount with AK307 lower and AKR upper. It's a more expensive solution, but there are no modifications and it's well reported on. The AK307 lower is made specifically for the Yugo PAP series. Some folks have also used the AK310 lower as well, but it sits higher. Note: When the RS307 lower is used with their AKM rings it will co-witness 30mm optics in the lower 1/3 with the rear sight on the U or combat zero.

4) It's possible to use BP-02 w/ the SVD clamp in certain situations. However, most scopes will end up too far rearward for good eye relief (my PV 2-10x52 just barely worked). You're into YMMV territory here, so I can't really recommend this setup.

The first three solutions have been tried and tested. There are plenty of photos on the first page of the thread. You'll need to go to page #13 (post #445) of this thread for more information on solution #2.

Larry



Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
I am not a firearm optics student. There are whole books about firearm optics. I do own a few "scoped" AK type weapons.
The Yugo M77 is a bit unique on the rail height and placement (rear setback). I gathered a few optics I have on hand from other rifles and I finally got around to trying various scopes and mounts on my .308 Yugo M77 rifle.

I have also experienced the frustration of determining if a certain mount or optic will., fit the rail properly, give good eye relief., is durable., is good cheekweld etc. Spending $200 on a set up only to find it really does not work ell is a PITA.

All the scopes pictured are pretty much in use on one rifle or another.

The problems with fitting any scope to a rifle is of course.,

-cheekweld (height of the optic over the receiver) and..,

-eye relief...., US commercial scopes tend to have a longer eye relief than milspec commbloc scopes. They require further forward mounting in most cases. There are exceptions.

-left or center offset., combloc scopes are generally left offset with a few mounts that are exceptions.

- indexing or "stopping" the optic. Under recoil a scope will "walk" forward under recoil unless it indexes or stops on a solid surface. The tightening clamp alone will not prevent walking. This stop is accomplished generally by a closed rear on the mount or a protruding nub on the front reverse of the scope mount base that contacts the closed end of the optics rail on the rifle..

As a rule of thumb., it seems that a commbloc optic eye relief for a nice acquisition of the scope is for the ocular or rear lens to be about 3/4 to 1 inch behind the rear edge of the receiver. This would vary a little by user and for commercial vs commbloc scopes.

I have not fired any of these yet and only fitted them for eye relief and cheekweld so far. To see what works and which do not.

This is a M76 Yugo mount as used on the 8mm M76 rifle. I used two forward rings from M76 mounts vs the normal rear long rear scope ring. It is left offset and front indexed by the forward nub in the mount.This allowed clearing the turrets and lacing the scope fairly centered in the mount.
The problem is the rear set rail on the M77 rifle is considerably more to the rear than a M76 or most any commbloc rail.

This results in poor eye relief as the scope is too far to the rear. The scope is a 3x-9x variable power type. The forward objective lens is too large to clear the rear sight ladder so even if it worked for eye relief the ladder would have to be removed for clearance. Iron sight could not be used.
This set up does not work


This set up is another M76 mount but it has a picatinny rail I placed on top of the mount. It can use various rings etc., and the scope can be moved forward or back for eye relied adjustment.
The scope itelf is ring-less and has integrated mounting locks. If moved forward the eye relief would be acceptable on this scope. However it sits higher and the cheekweld is not very good. The problem with scopes that have larger objective lenses is the clearance of the rear sight block etc., on an AK pattern rifle. This scope works pretty well on a M76 rifle but not as well on the M77



This mount is a Russian Izhmash mount. It is a forward pitched design, left offset and sits the scope in a sweet spot for eye relief. It locks or indexes to the rail at the rear of the mount.
It des sit a little high with the 2x-7x Russian scope. There is a "spacer" bar just above the base of this unit and I believe this may be removable in order top drop the optic lower to the receiver. Irion sights are accessible.
This has good potential and good eye relief. Further look at removing the spacer bar is needed. Kalinka Optcs sells this mount for $80.



This is a standard Russian/Belarus SVD mount type commbloc optic in 4x24. The PSL TIP2 is very similar.
It is left offset., forward nub indexing. The eye relief is better than the first two scope above but not as good as the third example. It is a bit far to the rear. One could adapt to this distance with a corrected hold but it is not as "natural" feeling. The advantage to this optic is they are reasonably common and a PSL scope could be had for $100-$125 or used from an existing rifle if it is a spare etc.



This is the same type scope as #4 except it is a 6x24 type and it has been fitted with a Krebs optic mount base extension. I have had this part for several years. I purchased it at a Gun Show for like $10 but cannot even remember why. It uses the clamp from the original SVD mount base and is threaded to accept all the mounting screws. This works very well to forward set the optic and provide excellent eye relief. It is still left offset and rear indexed. Cheekweld and eye relief are very good. So far this is the best choice among the optics I have on hand to test fit.
There are many options out there of course so I am not saying this is the best or anything. But so far this looks like a very workable option. The iron sights are accessible as well.



I may have one or two other options as well. I did not picture a standard M76 scope but it suffers the same eye relief issue of the rear set rail of the M77. An option is one that the Midwest Ordnance mount users performed. You cut open the top rear of the closed indexing on the mount and let the scope mount travel forward until the bottom area of the mount contacts the lower dovetail rail on the rifle. I did not measure the difference but it is significant. This is a permanent mod but does not actually "ruin" or make the mount non-useable on a standard SVD rail with a more standard setback. This mod is detailed in other posts/threads here on the Files.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Reid View Post
Here is my contribution

POSP 8X42BA on an AK mount. Left index. The mount is closed rear. However, if one were to open up the rear and pin the front then you might gain 1/2". This would definitely help the mount get a little more bite on the rail perhaps aiding in less flex. Will try this setup first before modifying or moving on to something else.

The SVD mount sits the scope so low it hits the rear site... and the forward stop indexing pin in the mount is too large in diameter for the relief in the rail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamui34 View Post
This is the RS Regulate mount with AK 310 lower and AKR upper. The optic was added on without particular care, I just wanted to see if the mount would clear the dust cover.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jrustycan View Post
Here's what I did. Midwest Industries notched. Centers over the bore, put it on, take it off and it holds zero. Can't use the iron sights with it on but that's not why I put a scope on it.






Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
OK, here' my contribution. First some factoids about POSP optics on these Yugoslav rails:

- The SVD mounts sit 15mm (about 5/8") lower than the equivalent AK mounts. Both mounts sit at about the same location front to rear on these Yugoslav rails.

- POSP Scope have acceptable eye relief with either the SVD or AK clamp and a 1" decelerator pad.

- POSP scopes do not sit over the bore.

- Some folks have had success in moving the AK mount forward 1-1/2" by milling a slot at the rear of the clamp. YMMV here! On mine the front part of the AK clamp would not have gripped the rail with this modification.

- My conclusion: A POSP scope with an SVD clamp and 1" decelerator pad should work well on these Yugoslav scope rails equipped with standard Yugo AK furniture. Note that you'll need to be very careful to adjust the rear sight to its minimum position at 100m.

Here's some photos:



Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
So here's another try on my part:

- BP-02 AK to Weaver Mount, Low Profile, Centered. The mount seemed a little high, so I rummaged through my 40mm and 50 mm scopes since I figured I might as well take advantage of the extra height. Note that the low profile AK BP-02 puts the picatinny rail in almost exactly the same position as the standard height SVD BP-02.

- PV 2-10x52 Pilade. Of my 40mm and 50 mm scopes, this one has fairly short eye relief and the turrets are a little rearward, so it mounts far enough forward to give good eye relief. I used the shortest 30mm rings I had to get the scope as low as possible. Many of my other scopes required much more eye relief.

- I could have lowered the picatinny rail 5mm by using the BP-02 Universal to Weaver Mount, Ultra Low Profile and swapping the clamp assembly for a POSP AK clamping assembly. This would have allowed me to use most any short eye relief scope I wanted adjusting the final height with the rings.

Conclusion: Excellent eye relief and cheek weld on my NPAP. But it's more than a little big for my 7.62x39 NPAP, but this setup might be wonderful for M77 . . . as always, YMMV.

Here's the photo:

Consolidated thread. I cherry picked the best information from here on the boards and created new post in the optics section.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:44 PM   #2
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For those interested in using Com Block red dots on these Yugoslav rifles, here's some more info:

1) The lowest mounting red dot optics are those like the PK01V which purport to co-witness on an AK. Though they sit too high to co-witness on my NPAP, they do produce a nice cheek weld on my NPAP.

2) Kobras are pretty high out of the box. And the extra height of the Yugoslav rail make for a "chin weld" at best (too high). In addition, they sit way too far back to use without a 1" decelerator pad (you likely risk a broken nose?).

Larry


PK01V:



Kobra EKP-08-02

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Old 05-28-2014, 06:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
For those interested in using red dots on these Yugoslav rifles, here's some more info:

1) The lowest mounting optics are those like the PK01V which purport to co-witness on an AK. Though they sit too high to co-witness on my NPAP, they do produce a nice cheek weld on my NPAP.
Our AK-310 and upcoming AK-311 sit at least 1/4" lower than any other side rail mount on a Yugo.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horse View Post
Our AK-310 and upcoming AK-311 sit at least 1/4" lower than any other side rail mount on a Yugo.
I might suggest providing information on the dimensions of your various mounts. Something like the stuff in the pic below.

Larry

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Old 05-30-2014, 08:31 PM   #5
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I should say that the AK-310 and AK-311 are lower than any AK specific mount, and match the SVD mount for height over-bore.

Here is a rough diagram showing you the options that the Patented AK-300 system gives you. All of these are base-lined against an AK-310 and AKR combo.

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Old 05-30-2014, 10:05 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horse View Post
I should say that the AK-310 and AK-311 are lower than any AK specific mount, and match the SVD mount for height over-bore.
Thank you for posting the diagram!

Your diagram includes a VZ-304 mount which looks like it would be right around the correct height for these Yugo optics rails. Would there be any issues with using it?

You also mention AK-310 and AK-311. I don't see the AK-311 on your diagram. What are the differences between the AK-310 and AK-311?

Thanks,

Larry
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Old 05-30-2014, 10:38 PM   #7
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VZ-304 is extremely raked rearward like an exaggerated AK-302. The height may or may not work, but the positioning of it would be much too far rearward on a Yugo.

The AK-310 is to the AK-303 what the AK-311 is to the AK-301.
AK-310 is full length, AK-311 is front biased only.
We literally just got the first very limited batch back from anodizing and started them down the packaging line today. They will hit retailers next week and most likely be up or sale end of next or beginning of the following week. We have a contract from Circle 10 AK and Primary Arms for the first release of them, so if you want them, contact one of those two vendors. Again, this is a very limited run (smallest we have ever done)
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Old 05-31-2014, 10:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
- Some folks have had success in moving the AK mount forward 1-1/2" by milling a slot at the rear of the clamp. YMMV here! On mine the front part of the AK clamp would not have gripped the rail with this modification.
Some folks have asked to elaborate on this statement. I'm referring to jrustycan's "notching" technique. I have my doubts that there is enough clamping surface on some rails to allow the front part of the clamp to grip anything

Larry

Here's some photos:

Authentic Midwest Industries - notice how the clamping surface might be moved so far forward as to no longer grip the rail:



Midwest Industries clone from eBay - notice how the clamping surface goes along the entire top of the slot:

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Old 06-01-2014, 02:10 PM   #9
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My conclusion is that for large objectives the eBay MI mount clone, modified to allow the mount to move forward is probably the cheapest way to go. It gives a good cheek weld and eye relief. This weighs in at about 3 oz. less than equivalent setup using a BP02, at considerably less money. The bell clears the rear sight. Here's a photo of mine with my 50mm PO scope:



Note #1: If your looking for a lower mounting bracket, it looks like the RS AK-310 series mount will get you lower without having to perform any modifications to the mount.

Note #2: My scope is from Kalinka, and the mount is from eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131179076627...84.m1497.l2648. The source is the seller blackrifletactical. The listing title is "Black Rifle Tactical AK Side Rail 1913 Mil Spec Anodized Scope Mount".

Larry
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:30 PM   #10
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Here is the Kalinka BP-02 universal mount with a weaver mount PK-A red dot

Same mount with the 8x42 weaver mount scope
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Here is the Kalinka BP-02 universal mount with a weaver mount PK-A red dot
They look pretty high . . . what kind of cheek weld are you getting?

Larry
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Old 06-02-2014, 08:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
They look pretty high . . . what kind of cheek weld are you getting?

Larry
Yea..Way too high.The red dot is doable but the scope is too high to shoot comfortably.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:29 PM   #13
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For anyone running the MI mount modified to mount further fwd -- Is there a stop for it or can it slide all the way off the front rail?
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
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For anyone running the MI mount modified to mount further fwd -- Is there a stop for it or can it slide all the way off the front rail?
Look carefully at the pics of the mod . . . you only need to open up the top portion of the mount. The bottom remains and provides for a stop further up against the bottom of the rail.

Larry
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz View Post
Look carefully at the pics of the mod . . . you only need to open up the top portion of the mount. The bottom remains and provides for a stop further up against the bottom of the rail.

Larry
Thanks Larry
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:47 PM   #16
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Default MI eBay clone

Larry, does the MI clone get the scope to align with the bore axis or is it offset? Thanks

By the way, I already ordered one...I just got to thinking that I hadn't seen this question asked about this mount.
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:24 PM   #17
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Larry, does the MI clone get the scope to align with the bore axis or is it offset? Thanks
Both the clone and the MI mount align over the bore.

Larry
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Old 07-04-2014, 11:06 PM   #18
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Dose the ebay clone work well, and would I have to alter anything?
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:31 PM   #19
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Dose the ebay clone work well, and would I have to alter anything?
You'll need to open up the top rear of either the MI mount or the clone to allow it to slide further forward. As for how it works, it even received the 'AKBLUE seal of approval' over on another board.

Larry
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Old 07-06-2014, 09:38 AM   #20
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I was looking at picking up one of these M77 soon. I understand that the M77 siderail's placement has a M76 scope further to the rear than on a M76 type. How much further back are we talking? Does anyone have a photo of what the ON-M76 scope looks like on the M77? I would also like to see the height of the ON-M76 on the M77.

I have nothing on hand to compare with but I was thinking I could just remove the original stop made into the ON-M76 mount and then drill, thread and put in a screw as a stop elsewhere on the mount. I see the horizontal slot in the ON-M76 mount, so depending on how far I need to move it, my proposed new stop might have to be a smaller diameter than the original to avoid the slot (therefore sitting above it). If so, I would also machine a matching slot in the siderail to match the new stop location so I get good surface to surface contact between the siderail and the moved stop.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-06-2014, 11:52 AM   #21
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The M76 mount places the ocular lens bell 2.5 inches from the rear of the receiver. This is about 2-2.5 inches too far to the rear for proper eye relief. Generally the commbloc SER scopes are best with the ocular lens bell right at the receiver tail or maybe a maximum of 1/2 inch rearward of that and still be decent eye relief..

The trunnion bulge will allow the mount to move about 2 inches forward before contact. The clamp on the mount would then be right at the forward area of the rail. It will clamp there but not sure that is an optimum place to hold the mount properly to the rail. Might work OK., might not.?? Dunno

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Old 07-06-2014, 02:40 PM   #22
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Thanks for the photo and info, AKBlue!

What do you mean by "SER scopes"?

Do we know what scopes were intended by Zastava to be used with the M77 (looks like Model 2010 on their website)?
http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/civili...ng-rifle-m2010
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:59 PM   #23
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SER., Short eye relief. Commbloc scope are generally 2.5" to < 3"., USA commercial and military are generally 3" to 4" +/-.
The commbloc has a shorter eye relief and can create a issue depending n rail/mount placement.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:49 PM   #24
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I hate to ask again but, is there anymore reports on the ebay clone or should I get a MI mount?
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Old 07-06-2014, 11:49 PM   #25
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I hate to ask again but, is there anymore reports on the ebay clone or should I get a MI mount?
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=16
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:53 PM   #26
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I hate to ask again but, is there anymore reports on the ebay clone or should I get a MI mount?
Also, http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=19.

Larry
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:12 AM   #27
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Awww so the ZRAK doesn't really fit on these right?

Kinda wanted to build a Tabuk clone with ZRAK
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Old 07-08-2014, 07:25 AM   #28
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Awww so the ZRAK doesn't really fit on these right?

Kinda wanted to build a Tabuk clone with ZRAK
Did you read the threads and view the pictures? Dunno what to say to our question that is not already here.?
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:36 PM   #29
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Anyone got a link to the ebay auction for the midwest clone mount? I cant find it.
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:52 PM   #30
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Anyone got a link to the ebay auction for the midwest clone mount? I cant find it.
Here is the link. But the seller sold all 60 as of a couple of weeks ago. You might contact him to see if he will obtain more.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Rifle-...-/131179076627
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:38 AM   #31
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Anyone got a link to the ebay auction for the midwest clone mount? I cant find it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Rifle-...3D131179076627
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:28 PM   #32
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Here is the link. But the seller sold all 60 as of a couple of weeks ago. You might contact him to see if he will obtain more.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Rifle-...-/131179076627
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Thanks for the info. Its hard to beat for the price.
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:40 PM   #33
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I bought the ebay clone and fit it to my rifle but it leans toward the barrel and doesn't line up straight over the bore. What did I do wrong?
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Old 07-17-2014, 09:44 PM   #34
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I bought the ebay clone and fit it to my rifle but it leans toward the barrel and doesn't line up straight over the bore. What did I do wrong?
Start buy using a caliper or something that you can measure the rail and see if it is parallel to the top of the receiver.

Have you shot and zeroed it yet? What are you gauging the "lean" on?
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:14 PM   #35
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The scope rail literally aims to the right.
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