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Old 08-04-2013, 07:13 PM   #1
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Default VEPR 12 folding stock, how to comply?

So if you get the folding stock VEPR-12 and break the weld, your rifle is officially out of compliance... unless you do something (get some parts that are American made installed?)

So what can be done to easily get your folder back into compliance?
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:22 PM   #2
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CSS piston puck
MD Arms Molot Grip
US made brake (I use PolyChoke II or the CSS GK-01 clone)
Tapco G2 Fire Control Group


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Old 08-04-2013, 07:36 PM   #3
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Nice!

Would any one of those changes have done the trick?
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Old 08-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #4
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Nice!

Would any one of those changes have done the trick?
All or nothing. What I listed is the bare minimum if you want to run factory mags.
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:05 PM   #5
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Oh man.

Ok... thanks for the info
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:45 PM   #6
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The other option is the trigger group and SGM USA made mags
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Old 08-04-2013, 08:51 PM   #7
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The other option is the trigger group and SGM USA made mags
That's not an option if you want to use any factory mags.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:29 PM   #8
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The other option is the trigger group and SGM USA made mags
Or puck, pistol grip, stock & forend changes, that's a little more than minimum. When SGM mags have been reported to run flawless, no real need to buy the overpriced (albeit quality) factory mags.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:41 AM   #9
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Or puck, pistol grip, stock & forend changes, that's a little more than minimum. When SGM mags have been reported to run flawless, no real need to buy the overpriced (albeit quality) factory mags.
I have several SGM mags. All feed reliably but some fails to actuate the LRBHO.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:07 PM   #10
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That's not an option if you want to use any factory mags.
Not true. You just have to retain ownership of the US mag. It doesn't have to be inserted or used exclusively in the weapon to maintain compliance.
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Old 08-05-2013, 12:23 PM   #11
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Not true. You just have to retain ownership of the US mag. It doesn't have to be inserted or used exclusively in the weapon to maintain compliance.
When you insert a factory mag on a rifle (or shotgun) that only has 3 922r compliant parts, it will exceed that 10 maximum allowed foreign parts, and thus illegal. Does not matter if you own a US mag or not.

I haven't seen sightings of 922r police roaming the shooting ranges so you may get away with it.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:18 PM   #12
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When you insert a factory mag on a rifle (or shotgun) that only has 3 922r compliant parts, it will exceed that 10 maximum allowed foreign parts, and thus illegal. Does not matter if you own a US mag or not.

I haven't seen sightings of 922r police roaming the shooting ranges so you may get away with it.
The ATF has stated a few times that you can still use foreign mags so long as you retain possession of the US mag. I'm using my phone right now but I'll look for it when I get home.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:30 PM   #13
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The ATF has stated a few times that you can still use foreign mags so long as you retain possession of the US mag. I'm using my phone right now but I'll look for it when I get home.
I definitely like to see an official ATF ruling on this.
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Old 08-05-2013, 05:41 PM   #14
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I have several SGM mags. All feed reliably but some fails to actuate the LRBHO.
From what I've heard it's more of an ammo issue with the LRBHO and apparently happens with factory mags as well. Not a dealbreaker for me.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:16 PM   #15
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From what I've heard it's more of an ammo issue with the LRBHO and apparently happens with factory mags as well. Not a dealbreaker for me.
I have yet to have any factory mags fail the LRBHO function. I have 3 of them. I use pretty much the same ammo regardless of magazine.
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #16
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I have yet to have any factory mags fail the LRBHO function. I have 3 of them. I use pretty much the same ammo regardless of magazine.
What loads were you using?
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Old 08-05-2013, 07:55 PM   #17
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What loads were you using?
I've tried all these. Mine had a few FTE's with anything low-recoil. Other than that, flawless, even Walmart Universals. No issues with LRBHO on factory mags.





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Old 08-25-2013, 04:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgp View Post
CSS piston puck
MD Arms Molot Grip
US made brake (I use PolyChoke II or the CSS GK-01 clone)
Tapco G2 Fire Control Group
I wanted these same update parts on my Vepr-12FSF but was concerned I'd be one (1) compliance part short when using factory mags.
I used the Saiga-12 resources below:

http://gunwiki.net/pub/JustTheLaw/Re...10-13-2011.pdf
http://jobson.us/922r/ (Used Saiga-12 Converted)
http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylertam View Post
I wanted these same update parts on my Vepr-12FSF but was concerned I'd be one (1) compliance part short when using factory mags.
I used the Saiga-12 resources below:

http://gunwiki.net/pub/JustTheLaw/Re...10-13-2011.pdf
http://jobson.us/922r/ (Used Saiga-12 Converted)
http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
For the VEPR 12 (same as Saiga 12), there are 16 countable parts. Maximum allowable foreign countable parts is 10. Therefore, you need 6 US parts to be 922r compliant.

The fire control group (trigger, hammer, disconnector) gives you 3. The pistol grip, piston puck, and muzzle brake gives you another 3, for a total of 6. Once this is done, you can use any mags you like.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgp View Post
For the VEPR 12 (same as Saiga 12), there are 16 countable parts. Maximum allowable foreign countable parts is 10. Therefore, you need 6 US parts to be 922r compliant.

The fire control group (trigger, hammer, disconnector) gives you 3. The pistol grip, piston puck, and muzzle brake gives you another 3, for a total of 6. Once this is done, you can use any mags you like.
Thank you cgp for the response.
Why do some of the resources below count 15 parts and not include the muzzle attachment or pistol grip?

http://gunwiki.net/pub/JustTheLaw/Re...10-13-2011.pdf
http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylertam View Post
Thank you cgp for the response.
Why do some of the resources below count 15 parts and not include the muzzle attachment or pistol grip?

http://gunwiki.net/pub/JustTheLaw/Re...10-13-2011.pdf
http://www.dinzagarms.com/922r/922r.html
Prior to the VEPR 12, the Saiga 12 shotguns (for that matter, ALL Saigas) were imported without the pistol grip. Thread protectors did not count and was excluded from the parts count. It was a huge surprise when the VEPR 12 arrive with the factory installed pistol grip.

While I am no lawyer, here's my take on this. The VEPR 12 was importable because the pistol grip did not trigger the non-sporting clause, as it required a detachable magazine plus (2) evil features. A flash suppressor and pistol grip are on that list. I can only assume that the ATF did not consider the muzzle protector as evil enough to make it on the list.

However, by replacing the muzzle protector or inserting a magazine over 5 rounds, you would have essentially violated the non-sporting rule and therefore, the gun MUST be 922r compliant. 922r lists pistol grips as one of the parts and therefore, countable for compliance purposes.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:32 PM   #22
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So a VEPR 12 or Saiga 12 has a gas piston (puck), but not an operating rod?

What's an example of an operating rod from a gun that has one?
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #23
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So a VEPR 12 or Saiga 12 has a gas piston (puck), but not an operating rod?

What's an example of an operating rod from a gun that has one?
The operating rod is that long stainless piece connected to the bolt carrier. On standard AK's, the rod and piston is one piece. On the S12 and V12, the rod is separate. They (piston puck and rod) are counted as 2 parts.


http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSaig...rifyCompliance
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgp View Post
The operating rod is that long stainless piece connected to the bolt carrier. On standard AK's, the rod and piston is one piece. On the S12 and V12, the rod is separate. They (piston puck and rod) are counted as 2 parts.


http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSaig...rifyCompliance
So then my understanding is correct, and the Arms of America "compliant" version with US parts added is actually non-compliant, because they don't claim to change the rod.

http://armsofamerica.com/vepr12russi...gindays-3.aspx

I count:

1. Frame or receiver
2. Barrel
3. Trunnion
4. Bolt
5. Bolt Carrier
6. Operating Rod
7. Butt Stock
8. Forearm/Handguard
9. Magazine Body
10. Magazine Follower
11. Magazine Floorplate

Last edited by uncommonsense; 08-25-2013 at 06:00 PM. Reason: can't type
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgp View Post
Prior to the VEPR 12, the Saiga 12 shotguns (for that matter, ALL Saigas) were imported without the pistol grip. Thread protectors did not count and was excluded from the parts count. It was a huge surprise when the VEPR 12 arrive with the factory installed pistol grip.

While I am no lawyer, here's my take on this. The VEPR 12 was importable because the pistol grip did not trigger the non-sporting clause, as it required a detachable magazine plus (2) evil features. A flash suppressor and pistol grip are on that list. I can only assume that the ATF did not consider the muzzle protector as evil enough to make it on the list.

However, by replacing the muzzle protector or inserting a magazine over 5 rounds, you would have essentially violated the non-sporting rule and therefore, the gun MUST be 922r compliant. 922r lists pistol grips as one of the parts and therefore, countable for compliance purposes.
Thank you, makes sense.

I'm still concerned though that I would have 11 parts when using factory mags:
(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Mounting blocks, trunnion
(4) Bolts
(5) Bolt carriers
(6) Operating rods (Shotgun Only)
(7) Buttstock
(8) Forearms, handguards
(9) Magazine bodies
(10) Followers
(11) Floorplates

Last edited by tylertam; 08-25-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:05 PM   #26
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Heh, uncommonsense beat me to it.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylertam View Post
Thank you, makes sense.

I'm still concerned though that I would have 11 parts when using factory mags:
(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Mounting blocks, trunnion
(4) Bolts
(5) Bolt carriers
(6) Operating rods (Shotgun Only)
(7) Buttstock
(8) Forearms, handguards
(9) Magazine bodies
(10) Followers
(11) Floorplates

Any thoughts?
Something on that list is excluded. I believe it is the mounting block. It does not count on shotguns.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Something on that list is excluded. I believe it is the mounting block. It does not count on shotguns.
Some of the resources I looked at did list the trunnion and receiver as one in the same but that letter, authenticity unknown, from the ATF concerned me as well as those sites that followed the letter.

I guess the bottom line is that it's up to the individual how he/she wants to proceed to compliance. Thank you to those that responded, especially cgp, it was helpful!

Last edited by tylertam; 08-25-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tylertam View Post
Some of the resources I looked at did list the trunnion and receiver as one in the same but that letter, authenticity unknown, from the ATF concerned me as well as those sites that followed the letter.

I guess the bottom line is that it's up to the individual how he/she wants to proceed to compliance. Thank you to those that responded, especially cgp, it was helpful!
It's confusing and there are a lot of resources out there that say yay or nay. Even so-called official 922r counter sites don't agree.
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Old 08-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by cgp View Post
CSS piston puck
MD Arms Molot Grip
US made brake (I use PolyChoke II or the CSS GK-01 clone)
Tapco G2 Fire Control Group


That is really a nice looking vepr12, thinking about selling my unused fixed stock and buying a folder.

Very nice!!
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:54 PM   #31
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Without me figuring the parts count out, why would you have to put on a US brake? You could just take the thread cap off if they even count that.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:03 AM   #32
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Decided to change the handguards as well, just to be sure.
Love those factory mags.

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Old 08-31-2013, 04:54 AM   #33
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A Newb question...

Just out of curiosity, which of the US parts actually has "Made in the USA" on them?

Isn't it true that not all, nor even most US parts used for compliance are labelled "USA" ? And wouldn't any LE have to have some cause to even check in the first place? And even then, say you brought your VEPR 12 to the airport forgetting it was on you, how on Earth would ANYone know that you were NOT in compliance, if that was in fact the case? Is some ATS agent going to whip out a list of all the parts that ARE labelled "MITUSA" ? It just doesn't really seem enforceable, so why sweat it; unless of course you are in a position where you do get checked as a matter of course? And how would they ever be able to prove it (more a rhetorical)?

Keepin Abiding till the end,

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Old 01-20-2014, 08:48 PM   #34
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I wanna bump this because I'll be buying some 8 or 10 round OEM mags soon... I have a muzzle brake bought from CS PA to my barrel to get me to 18.25", I swapped out the puck for a CS puck, scorpion pistol grip, Bonesteel stock & Chaos quad rail... Will I need to swap out anything else to run the Russian 8 & 10 round mags?
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