Spotwelder timing observation

ronin · 09-14-2006, 08:25 AM

I was watching AK-Builder's spotwelder video file last night for the first time and noticed his weld time is approximately 15-17 seconds.

Some, including me, havel heard the fast count to three from other build instructions but in the video you can clearly hear the welder run, see the metal change colors and the resulting spot welder "divots".

Maybe the three-second people are using 220V or otherwise more powerful welders than the little HF 120v model that some of us have. I bought the 120 and am waiting on AK-Builder's modified tong to reach in the receiver.

I hope to do my rails in a couple of weeks when I have some free time and will try the 15 second timing. I also plan to do a few test runs on some approximately similar sheet metal, but wanted to pass this timing observation along.

If you want to see the video, go to www.ak-builder.com and go to his downloads section and then go to videos from there.

Best wishes to all.

Petro · 09-14-2006, 08:50 AM

It might also have to do with how tight the jaws are arounnd the parts.
Just a guess.
I just did mine. 5+Seconds gave me the bets results so far, But i do still need to shoot it to really find out.

7.62x39 · 09-14-2006, 11:33 AM

15-17 seconds seems awfully long.
My unit is a 110v, about 3-4 seconds is all it takes for a nice strong weld. I know mine would burn through long before 15 seconds.

ronin · 09-14-2006, 11:48 AM

This is interesting. I'm definitely going to do some testing. I bought some of AK-Builder's new low-cost flats and will do my first tries on them vs. his premium flats. I'm also going to make sure I do them with his tong vs. the stock HF tong. Maybe the conductivity and/or shape of the head affect the result as well.

ETG · 09-14-2006, 03:27 PM

I use the Harbor Freight 110v with AK Builder's lower tong. What I have found is that your extension cord (or lack of) has more to do with time required than anything else. If I plug the welder straight into the wall, 3 sec is almost too much. A 100' extension cord and it will never get hot enough. A 25' cord takes a long time 10-15 sec. I bought a 10' heavy duty extension cord and it taks about 4 sec and is a lot more controllable than straight into the outlet. All extension cords were heavy duty that I tried.

Another suggestion - flatten out the old receiver sections, clean them off real good and practice on them.

lextech · 09-14-2006, 07:11 PM

HF welder with 25' extension and 3 seconds and they fell off. 5 seconds rock solid, 6 seconds burned through. Good luck. You can do it again if you dont do it long enough but if you run it for 17 seconds your probly gonna find a large hole where your receiver was.

jwc0506 · 09-15-2006, 01:23 AM

seemed like mine took 4- 4.5 seconds or so-each one..... mine r not budging either. 14-15 seconds and u probably have a ruined reciever. LOL. jwc0506

ronin · 09-15-2006, 03:23 PM

Guys, thanks a bunch. I'm definitely going to use a shorter large gauge extension cord and will definitely test first! I'll start at 3 and try to pull the test metal apart with pliers, then 5, and so on.

Andrew Lloyd · 09-15-2006, 03:48 PM

ronin
be sure you dont use the thongs on the welder like a clamp. Set the jaws with the two nuts on top of the front of the handle on top. Set them where the handles will close and hold very firm. If you clamp over 5 seconds and have a firm grip on the 2 parts, you are going to have a hole. The small extension cords are causing what you call a voltage drop. Hope this helps.
Andrew Lloyd

ronin · 09-16-2006, 08:30 PM

Thank you Andrew. I'm definitely going to position the rails and firmly clamp them in place. I've learned the hard way when I first started welding that the prep work is, and should be, 90% of the effort.

jwc0506 · 09-16-2006, 10:50 PM

or just plug in off the wall-hell with it?! it worked for me. jwc0506

lextech · 09-17-2006, 12:06 AM

When my first 3 second weld didnt hold, i took the dremil with a bur bit and scored both sides to be welded. Dont know if it helped ( it worked with longer welds) but its how you do it with clay, score the surfaces to be attached. Just an idea.

ronin · 09-17-2006, 05:28 AM

My wall outlet is buried behind my bench and a general pain in the butt to get to plus it is usually just far enough away to use up too much of a tool's cord to then be able to effectively move the tool around.

I have a 25' 10ga cord extension cord that ought to do the trick. Years ago I melted an extension cord hooking up some tool and bought a couple of thick gauge cords(age is taking its toll because I can't remember which tool :-) Sheesh - it's funny how you can forget things over time.

ETG · 09-20-2006, 05:44 PM

ronin, with a little pratice you won't have to count - you can watch how fast the metal is heating up and the color for a good solid weld

ronin · 09-20-2006, 08:24 PM

Thanks ETG - That makes sense. I have Oxy and MIG welders today so it's just a new process to learn. I was watching the color of the steel in the video too. The main thing I need to do is to do some test welds. I have the welder but not AK-Builder's tong. That should arrive shortly as I know he had to build them.

7.62x39 · 09-21-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETG

ronin, with a little pratice you won't have to count - you can watch how fast the metal is heating up and the color for a good solid weld

I don't think that any of us actually use a count, I know I don't.
Visually is really the only correct way to know for sure.
We are just giving estimates of how long it should take.

ronin · 09-21-2006, 09:31 AM

My tact is to always learn from others, test and then do it. I'm definitely learning that the count is too variable to depend on. Until I got to talking to people I was going to follow the quick count to three and now I'm going to watch the color of the steel and do some test runs. Thank you for sharing 7.62.

ETG · 09-21-2006, 06:51 PM

ronin,
I forgot to say that when your testing try to get a feel for when the welder is going to - sheeeese, what do I call it - spftzzzz - and blow sparks and metal out from the weld. That is definately too long and although doesn't always burn through it's a pain to finish smoothly. If you gas and mig you will get the hang quickly. Try to do some test runs intentionally going till you see it spit out. That will give you the bounds between good and too much you are looking for.

ronin · 09-21-2006, 06:58 PM

I'll make a burn through happen and then start backing off. Thanks ETG. With any luck I'll have my receiver together pretty quick. I'm just waiting on a jig from Curtis.

ronin · 09-23-2006, 03:31 PM

Alrighty - a report back. I assembled the HF welder today made some 18ga coupons out of mild steel just to test the unit. I used a 6' 12 ga extension cord and had a nice weld in 3-4 seconds and was going for total overkill with steel running out the opposite side at 5-7 seconds.

Thank you all for your input. My flats arrived from Curtis the other day and I am just waiting for the jig to do the real thing.

jwc0506 · 09-25-2006, 07:15 PM

i am begeiining to think the timing varies dependin on outlet, coord etc... i plugged right off my wall(no ext coord).... it was 4 to 4 and half seconds for a solid weld. but i think i overkilled thou slightly... but not too much for a melt thru either! so 4 -to 4.5 works! i will try 4 seconds flat next time-- i think that'd do it?! jwc0506

my-rifle · 09-25-2006, 10:57 PM

I bought the Homier Speedway welder, and I followed Fred's (GunsGutsAndGod) suggestion for grinding off the elbow, flattening the end of the cutoff tong. tapping the tong, filing down the tip, and screwing it into the flattened tapped tong. I wound up with a tip that was 1/8th" wide at the tip. When I tried it out it popped every breaker I used, until I finally gave up. A couple of nights ago while on vacation in France I awakened with the thought that maybe my tip was too wide. This afternoon I ground down the tip, and when I tried it again, voila! It worked a treat. The reason I bring all this up is that the width of the tong-tip with which you're working may influence the time you spend clamped down welding as it seems to influence the amount of amperage the tool draws.

09-14-2006, 08:25 AM	#1
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	Spotwelder timing observation I was watching AK-Builder's spotwelder video file last night for the first time and noticed his weld time is approximately 15-17 seconds. Some, including me, havel heard the fast count to three from other build instructions but in the video you can clearly hear the welder run, see the metal change colors and the resulting spot welder "divots". Maybe the three-second people are using 220V or otherwise more powerful welders than the little HF 120v model that some of us have. I bought the 120 and am waiting on AK-Builder's modified tong to reach in the receiver. I hope to do my rails in a couple of weeks when I have some free time and will try the 15 second timing. I also plan to do a few test runs on some approximately similar sheet metal, but wanted to pass this timing observation along. If you want to see the video, go to www.ak-builder.com and go to his downloads section and then go to videos from there. Best wishes to all.

09-23-2006, 03:31 PM	#20
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	Alrighty - a report back. I assembled the HF welder today made some 18ga coupons out of mild steel just to test the unit. I used a 6' 12 ga extension cord and had a nice weld in 3-4 seconds and was going for total overkill with steel running out the opposite side at 5-7 seconds. Thank you all for your input. My flats arrived from Curtis the other day and I am just waiting for the jig to do the real thing. Last edited by ronin; 09-26-2006 at 06:41 AM.

09-14-2006, 08:50 AM	#2
Petro Veteran Member AKaholic #: 6097 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: CT Posts: 1,396	It might also have to do with how tight the jaws are arounnd the parts. Just a guess. I just did mine. 5+Seconds gave me the bets results so far, But i do still need to shoot it to really find out.

09-14-2006, 11:33 AM	#3
7.62x39 Senior Member AKaholic #: 463 Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 604	15-17 seconds seems awfully long. My unit is a 110v, about 3-4 seconds is all it takes for a nice strong weld. I know mine would burn through long before 15 seconds.

09-14-2006, 11:48 AM	#4
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	This is interesting. I'm definitely going to do some testing. I bought some of AK-Builder's new low-cost flats and will do my first tries on them vs. his premium flats. I'm also going to make sure I do them with his tong vs. the stock HF tong. Maybe the conductivity and/or shape of the head affect the result as well.

09-14-2006, 03:27 PM	#5
ETG Veteran Member AKaholic #: 5494 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,221	I use the Harbor Freight 110v with AK Builder's lower tong. What I have found is that your extension cord (or lack of) has more to do with time required than anything else. If I plug the welder straight into the wall, 3 sec is almost too much. A 100' extension cord and it will never get hot enough. A 25' cord takes a long time 10-15 sec. I bought a 10' heavy duty extension cord and it taks about 4 sec and is a lot more controllable than straight into the outlet. All extension cords were heavy duty that I tried. Another suggestion - flatten out the old receiver sections, clean them off real good and practice on them.

09-14-2006, 07:11 PM	#6
lextech Curio & Relic Contributor AKaholic #: 6259 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: central new york Posts: 4,573	HF welder with 25' extension and 3 seconds and they fell off. 5 seconds rock solid, 6 seconds burned through. Good luck. You can do it again if you dont do it long enough but if you run it for 17 seconds your probly gonna find a large hole where your receiver was.

09-15-2006, 01:23 AM	#7
jwc0506 Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 4865 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,121	seemed like mine took 4- 4.5 seconds or so-each one..... mine r not budging either. 14-15 seconds and u probably have a ruined reciever. LOL. jwc0506

09-15-2006, 03:23 PM	#8
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	Guys, thanks a bunch. I'm definitely going to use a shorter large gauge extension cord and will definitely test first! I'll start at 3 and try to pull the test metal apart with pliers, then 5, and so on.

09-15-2006, 03:48 PM	#9
Andrew Lloyd Member AKaholic #: 3860 Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 58	ronin be sure you dont use the thongs on the welder like a clamp. Set the jaws with the two nuts on top of the front of the handle on top. Set them where the handles will close and hold very firm. If you clamp over 5 seconds and have a firm grip on the 2 parts, you are going to have a hole. The small extension cords are causing what you call a voltage drop. Hope this helps. Andrew Lloyd

09-16-2006, 08:30 PM	#10
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	Thank you Andrew. I'm definitely going to position the rails and firmly clamp them in place. I've learned the hard way when I first started welding that the prep work is, and should be, 90% of the effort.

09-16-2006, 10:50 PM	#11
jwc0506 Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 4865 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,121	or just plug in off the wall-hell with it?! it worked for me. jwc0506

09-17-2006, 12:06 AM	#12
lextech Curio & Relic Contributor AKaholic #: 6259 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: central new york Posts: 4,573	When my first 3 second weld didnt hold, i took the dremil with a bur bit and scored both sides to be welded. Dont know if it helped ( it worked with longer welds) but its how you do it with clay, score the surfaces to be attached. Just an idea.

09-17-2006, 05:28 AM	#13
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	My wall outlet is buried behind my bench and a general pain in the butt to get to plus it is usually just far enough away to use up too much of a tool's cord to then be able to effectively move the tool around. I have a 25' 10ga cord extension cord that ought to do the trick. Years ago I melted an extension cord hooking up some tool and bought a couple of thick gauge cords(age is taking its toll because I can't remember which tool :-) Sheesh - it's funny how you can forget things over time.

09-20-2006, 05:44 PM	#14
ETG Veteran Member AKaholic #: 5494 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,221	ronin, with a little pratice you won't have to count - you can watch how fast the metal is heating up and the color for a good solid weld

09-20-2006, 08:24 PM	#15
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	Thanks ETG - That makes sense. I have Oxy and MIG welders today so it's just a new process to learn. I was watching the color of the steel in the video too. The main thing I need to do is to do some test welds. I have the welder but not AK-Builder's tong. That should arrive shortly as I know he had to build them.

09-21-2006, 09:31 AM	#17
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	My tact is to always learn from others, test and then do it. I'm definitely learning that the count is too variable to depend on. Until I got to talking to people I was going to follow the quick count to three and now I'm going to watch the color of the steel and do some test runs. Thank you for sharing 7.62.

09-21-2006, 06:51 PM	#18
ETG Veteran Member AKaholic #: 5494 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,221	ronin, I forgot to say that when your testing try to get a feel for when the welder is going to - sheeeese, what do I call it - spftzzzz - and blow sparks and metal out from the weld. That is definately too long and although doesn't always burn through it's a pain to finish smoothly. If you gas and mig you will get the hang quickly. Try to do some test runs intentionally going till you see it spit out. That will give you the bounds between good and too much you are looking for.

09-21-2006, 06:58 PM	#19
ronin Trying to Get a Grip Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6354 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: USA Posts: 9,682	I'll make a burn through happen and then start backing off. Thanks ETG. With any luck I'll have my receiver together pretty quick. I'm just waiting on a jig from Curtis.

09-25-2006, 07:15 PM	#21
jwc0506 Curio & Relic AKaholic #: 4865 Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,121	i am begeiining to think the timing varies dependin on outlet, coord etc... i plugged right off my wall(no ext coord).... it was 4 to 4 and half seconds for a solid weld. but i think i overkilled thou slightly... but not too much for a melt thru either! so 4 -to 4.5 works! i will try 4 seconds flat next time-- i think that'd do it?! jwc0506

09-25-2006, 10:57 PM	#22
my-rifle Chilling like a quarter after five. Gold Contributor AKaholic #: 6179 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 5,998	I bought the Homier Speedway welder, and I followed Fred's (GunsGutsAndGod) suggestion for grinding off the elbow, flattening the end of the cutoff tong. tapping the tong, filing down the tip, and screwing it into the flattened tapped tong. I wound up with a tip that was 1/8th" wide at the tip. When I tried it out it popped every breaker I used, until I finally gave up. A couple of nights ago while on vacation in France I awakened with the thought that maybe my tip was too wide. This afternoon I ground down the tip, and when I tried it again, voila! It worked a treat. The reason I bring all this up is that the width of the tong-tip with which you're working may influence the time you spend clamped down welding as it seems to influence the amount of amperage the tool draws.

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