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Old 03-13-2004, 04:39 AM   #1
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Default MAK-90...assault weapon?

I chopped a few lines from the 1994 ban wording...

Quote:
Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the United States Code states:

The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -
(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
Quote:
Exemptions to the law:
Title 18, Chapter 44, section 922 states:
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
Does this mean that MAK-90, NHM-90, and NHM-91 rifles are grandfathered assault weapons?

They are, after all, marked Norinco and/or Poly Tech, are in fact copies or duplicates of Avtomat Kalashnikovs, and were manufactured before October 1, 1993 and imported before September of 1994 (I believe importation actually stopped in 1993).

Just something to ponder.
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Old 03-14-2004, 03:35 PM   #2
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Any of the named "Avtomat Kalashnakov" rifles are in fact Assault Rifles as far as the wording of the '94 AWB is concerned. The number of evil features on these rifles is irrelevant to their status as AW's and therefore they are grandfathered. So, yes they can have all the goodies on 'em. You can not "manufacture" what already is. Just remain compliant with the US parts requirement from the '89 fiasco which seems to still apply (technically this may not apply either,due to the manner and method of there aquisition of AW status).
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Old 03-14-2004, 08:54 PM   #3
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It may be even stranger than that. Remember Bush Sr. ordered the importation of all Kalashnikov-like arms suspended in 1993. This means that any Chinese AK is a preban, if I am remembering correctly.
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Old 03-14-2004, 10:13 PM   #4
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none of these semi auto AR's and AK's that everyone owns are true assault rifles. get a transferrable MG, then you have an assault weapon.
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
none of these semi auto AR's and AK's that everyone owns are true assault rifles. get a transferrable MG, then you have an assault weapon.
This discussion only involves what the laws on semi-automatics states.

Sorry, I don't have $8,000+ to throw away on a transferrable AK machine gun.
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Old 03-16-2004, 03:57 PM   #6
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"Assault rifles" are short, light, fully-automatic weapons chambered for intermediate cartridges, by general consensus. "Semiautomatic Assault Weapons" is a legally-defined term intended to get the evil name "Assault" attached attached more securely than a legal muzzle device, and the definition includes all of the Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly rifles. Rifles imported before the '89 ban (this was Bush Senior's AW ban) were grandfathered in. If I remember correctly, while it was illegal to modify these to the form of the banned rifles, there was a 5 year statute of limitations on this, and the possession and transfer of these (modified) firearms was not illegal. So the modifications of the MAK-90s, et. al., was illegal, but the modified firearms weren't. Until the 9/94 (Clinton) AWB, which made the modification, possession, or transfer of any of these firearms illegal, unless they were "domestic" firearms, containing no more than 10 of the 20 BATFE parts. A company could build a rifle identical to the 1988 Polytech Legend today, in the US, and it would be perfectly legal--which is what Century has been doing, and Global Trades/Arsenal have recently started. Whether the parts were newly made or made years ago makes no difference. They would just have to have no more than 10 imported parts in them.

The Chinese ban occurred in April (or May) 1990, when William Jefferson Clinton by executive order banned the importation of firearms or firearms-relater equipment from China. It made him look like he was punishing them for their human rights violations, while not affecting the vast majority of goods they produced for export.
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Old 03-16-2004, 06:16 PM   #7
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But, as per the 1994 ban, all variations of Norinco, Polytech, and Mitchell Arms AKs are considered grandfathered "assault weapons".

So, if you installed the required number of U.S. parts to make MAK-90s classified as domestically produced to comply with the 1989 parts-count ban, since these are already considered legally to be "assault weapons" per the wording of the 1994 Clinton ban, would it not be legal to have all the "assault weapon" features (folding stock, threaded muzzle, flash hider, etc, etc) on a MAK-90? After all, you are not manufacturing or converting it into an illegal assault weapon, since according the the 1994 ban, they already are considered assault weapons.

Quote:
Until the 9/94 (Clinton) AWB, which made the modification, possession, or transfer of any of these firearms illegal, unless they were "domestic" firearms, containing no more than 10 of the 20 BATFE parts.
I think you have your bans confused. The parts-count ban was the 1989 ban, was it not?

If what you say were the case, you could domestically produce AKs with folding stocks and threaded muzzles and the like right now.
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Old 03-17-2004, 12:19 AM   #8
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Pre-89 (the "Bush Ban), you could have any format you wanted, as long as it wasn't selective-fire. That ban stopped the pistol grip, folding stock, and flash-hider (or threads that would accept a flash-hider). It took a little while, but the pistol grips were replaced with thumbholes, the folding stocks were eliminated, and the threads were eliminated or covered up (with a welded-on sleeve). But (though it was illegal) people started retro-fitting these guns. And the retro-fitted guns weren't illegal, only the act. So then the '94 (Clinton) ban made modifying the guns illegal, and selling or possessing the guns illegal, and without a statute of limitations. So then they pulled out the laws governing the manufacturing of firearms from imported parts, and we got the "compliance parts" fiasco. And if you have noticed in the last several months more importers are calling attention to the fact that their parts kits are for repair only, and not for assembling into a new firearm.
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Old 03-17-2004, 01:15 AM   #9
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Quote:
That ban stopped the pistol grip, folding stock, and flash-hider (or threads that would accept a flash-hider).
Right, but for *imported* rifles only, correct? If the rifle was U.S. made, or had enough imported parts replaced with domestically manufactured parts, then these rules did not apply, because they were considered made in the U.S.A. and exempt from the 1989 ban.

So, as I said, as long as you comply with the parts-count restrictions by replacing enough imported parts with domestic parts to reduce the number of imported parts to 10 or less (making the MAK-90 technically U.S. made, which makes it exempt from the 1989 ban), and considering the fact that the MAK-90 is a Norinco or PolyTech AK variant (which are assault weapons as per the 1994 ban), and consider that they were all imported before the 1994 ban, couldn't you, legally, have a folding stock, threaded muzzle, bayonet, flash hider, etc. on a MAK-90?
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:23 PM   #10
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No, those are illegal under any conditions. The fact that some assault weapons have them doesn't make it legal to put them on assault weapons that don't have them. So even though a MAK-90 is now an assault weapon, you can't add other assault weapon features to it.
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Old 03-19-2004, 12:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
No, those are illegal under any conditions. The fact that some assault weapons have them doesn't make it legal to put them on assault weapons that don't have them. So even though a MAK-90 is now an assault weapon, you can't add other assault weapon features to it.
Care to elaborate further on this?

I've read over the entire 1994 ban, and I haven't seen anything that covers adding or removing assault weapon features from pre-existing assault weapons.
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Old 03-19-2004, 05:42 PM   #12
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18 USC 922(r) is a federal law, passed by Congress and signed by Prez. George Bush, Sr in 1990. It bans the importation of certain firearm, so-called 'assault weapons' (keep in mind that that the ordnance term 'assault rifle' and the legal term 'assault weapon' are entirely different things).

A federal regulation, 27 CFR 478 defines the details of how many parts of what type are acceptable.

================================================== =============

http://frwebgate6.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates
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Old 03-19-2004, 07:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
18 USC 922(r) is a federal law, passed by Congress and signed by Prez. George Bush, Sr in 1990. It bans the importation of certain firearm, so-called 'assault weapons' (keep in mind that that the ordnance term 'assault rifle' and the legal term 'assault weapon' are entirely different things).
Quote:
(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
So, as I stated, if you replace enough parts with US made parts to reduce the number of imported parts (listed in paragraph (c)) to less than 10, then there is nothing legally stopping you, from all that I have read, from owning a MAK-90 with such things as a folding stock, bayonet lugs, and the like (assuming that it complies with the parts count restriction).

This has been thoroughly covered here: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showth...hreadid=150733
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Old 03-19-2004, 11:50 PM   #14
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In practical terms, as I have stated in the past, you can do pretty much what you want. Nearly every gunshow of any size has at least one vendor selling a "pre-ban MAK-90" or "pre-ban SAR", and the police and BATFE agents ignore them. The only time I have seen police at a range asking questions about guns are if there are reports of full-auto fire. If someone wants to look at your firearm to see if you have illegal parts on it, give it up, because you've already been convicted, and they're just trying to find what to convict you of.
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Old 03-20-2004, 01:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
In practical terms, as I have stated in the past, you can do pretty much what you want.
That's not the point of my rant here. My point is, I think (and several others seem to think) the antis accidentally screwed themselves by specifically naming manufacturers and model numbers in the 1994 ban, specifically in the case of the Norinco AK.

I still have yet to be presented with any specific law/bill/whatever that specifically makes it illegal to have a folding stock, bayonet lug, etc on the MAK-90 (as long as the imported parts count is adhered to). If anybody can prove me wrong, please do so.

Quote:
"pre-ban MAK-90" or "pre-ban SAR"
Well, in the case of the SAR, it's pretty obvious that it's a post-ban non-evil feature gun (I think importation started in 1997 or 1998 if I am not mistaken). The MAK-90 is a special case...as long as the parts count is observed...well, you know the story.
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Old 03-20-2004, 10:25 PM   #16
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If you really want their opinion, why not write BATFE Technical Staff and ask? They'll give you a straight answer, and back it up with legislation. It would be interesting to see. If you do it, please post their reply.
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Old 03-21-2004, 12:37 AM   #17
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Quote:
If you really want their opinion, why not write BATFE Technical Staff and ask?
You mean wake the sleeping giant for an opinion on the issue? I think I will. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Old 03-22-2004, 04:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
m03:
"I still have yet to be presented with any specific law/bill/whatever that specifically makes it illegal to have a folding stock, bayonet lug, etc on the MAK-90 (as long as the imported parts count is adhered to). If anybody can prove me wrong, please do so."
You are looking for 18 USC 921(a)(30) and 18 USC 922v. Here you go:
Quote:
United States Code


- TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
-- PART I - CRIMES
--- CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS
---- Section 921. Definitions
----- (a) As used in this chapter -
------ (30) The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -
------- B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
-------- (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
-------- (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
-------- (iii) a bayonet mount;
-------- (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
-------- (v) a grenade launcher;

( LINK )

+++++

---- Section 922. Unlawful acts
----- (v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
----- (2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
----- (3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
------ (A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
------ (B) any firearm that -
------- (i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
------- (ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
------- (iii) is an antique firearm;
------ (C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or
------ (D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine. The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect.

{ LINK )
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Old 03-22-2004, 05:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
OughtSix:
You are looking for 18 USC 921(a)(30) and 18 USC 922v. Here you go:
No, I've already covered this. According to the wording of Section 921, the MAK-90 is classified as a semiautomatic assault weapon:

Quote:
Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the United States Code states:

The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -
(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
Is the MAK-90 made by Norinco, Mitchell, or Poly Technologies: YES
Is the MAK-90 a copy or duplicate of an Avtomat Kalashnikov: YES

The MAK-90, by definition, is already a semiautomatic assault weapon.

Quote:
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
All MAK-90s are pre-1994, correct? That covers the exemption here.
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packrat
The Chinese ban occurred in April (or May) 1990, when William Jefferson Clinton by executive order banned the importation of firearms or firearms-relater equipment from China. It made him look like he was punishing them for their human rights violations, while not affecting the vast majority of goods they produced for export.
Clinton did not take office until January 1993.

I did not look at every executive order, but in 19933, there was this one concerning China:
http://www.archives.gov/federal_regi.../pdf/12850.pdf

It does not contain a ban on the imporation of Chinese rifles.

However this ban was accomplished, it wasn't accomplished by executive order in 1993.

You may be right that it was April or May of 1990, under George Herbert Walker Bush. Let me check... The orders aren't online, but GHWB did sign 12711 which dealt with china in April 1990, but doesn't seem to be firearms related.

Apparently the ban on the importation of Chinese firearms was accomplished some other way (or in a year I didn't check.)

----

On the Mak 90. M03 seems to be correct. Since Norinco is named, it is grandfathered, and no part of the "manufacture..." provision applies to it.

Which means if you have a lawfully imported and owned MAK90, you can do whatever you want to it-- the AWB doesn't apply!

Amazing using the law against them, but they wrote it that way.
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:35 PM   #21
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April or May 1994. Sorry if I said 1993; sometimes these fingers take orders from someone else. You'll find quite a few MAK-90s with the 93- prefix (imported in 1993) and I've heard of one with 94-.

Daddy Bush did enough to us with the original ('89) AWB. Bastard.

Not sure what Shrub intends: either he's lying to us, and going to help the anti-s, or he's lying to them and trying to help us. Either way, he's trying to walk between raindrops.
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Old 04-10-2004, 08:56 AM   #22
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Ok, I think my confusion is abated.

In 89, Bush signed the EO banning the importation of firearms that didn't fit the "sporting" test, and Chinese AKs went to the butthole stock... but lots of other countries rifles were affected by this, and thats how we have the 10 part rule.

Then in 1994 Clinton banned all firearms imports from China, right? And of course, signed the AWB, which was really a codification of Bush's 89 "sporting" (eg: cosmetic) ban.

Bush 2 has done enough reprehensible things that I take him at his anti-gun word.

McCain Feingold alone is enough to make im personaa non-grata to anyone who respects the constitution (direct attack at the first ammendment.)

Then theres the fact that he created a government agency who's only job is to violate the fourth ammendment and illegally search millions of americans without cause, every day.

And that's not even getting into the PATRIOT act, the fact that Iraq looks to be setting a family score, and his lies about that, and the thing that tops it off for me: He did nothing on 9/11 when SOP was to scramble fighters, but NORAD and DOD did not do this, violating SOP-- something that could only happen with instructions from above. 4 planes were simultaneously hijacked, and the administration prevented stopping them, while Bush read to kids. Smells like treason to me.
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Old 04-25-2004, 06:33 PM   #23
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I think that once Sept. arrives and if everything goes as planned.....you will be able to take any AK variant and do what you want as long as the number of parts as others have mentioned are of domestic manufacture....once it has a certain number of US parts....its no longer an import...the receiver is just a part number and not used as far as I know as a point of reference towards country of origin once enough US parts are used...in other words...you have a good ole standard MAK90....you replace the Chinese wood set with lets say an Ironwood set, the trigger group with something made by TAPCO....new gas piston....and maybe a US floor plate and follower....you should be good to go as far as flashhider....bayo lug...folding stock, etc. Heck even before '94 you could have done this as long as the parts were US made....what I would do is wait it out....then order one of the SAM7s from Arsenal....its a US receiver.....you will be able to anything you want to it....well at least for a limited amount of time....the BAN is gonna die.....
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:01 AM   #24
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wat's the verdict?
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