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Old 04-03-2013, 01:24 PM   #1
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Default Zastava M70 PAP or Century Arms WASR 10?

Both of these are imported by Century Arms and both are around $950. My only experience with the AK platform is my Zastava M92 AK pistol but I would like a rifle as well. Which is the better choice between the M70 or the WASR?
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:30 PM   #2
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If it were me, id pick the WASR.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:36 PM   #3
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For 950 - neither.

Shop around, I got a guy on MGO selling an Arsenal for a 1000..........
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:42 PM   #4
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For 950 - neither.

Shop around, I got a guy on MGO selling an Arsenal for a 1000..........
Yea, problem is I live in CA and no one wants to ship here because it has to go to an FFL and people out of state dont know the rules here and dont even want to deal with it. For example, someones out of state 30 round magazine isnt legal to import here and no one wants to mess with breaking it down into a rebuild kit and installing a bullet button etc...
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:47 PM   #5
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Neither, they both suck
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:00 PM   #6
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Neither, they both suck
What would you suggest then?
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:18 PM   #7
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If you're going to spend $1000, then just step it up to an Arsenal SAM7R for $1299.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:25 PM   #8
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Before the panic started a wasr was 500 bucks and a pap M70 was 600 or so if I recall. Neither of them are a deal at 950.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:26 PM   #9
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If price were no concern, I'd pick the WASR 10/63 simply because I've had good luck with them and the Yugos don't have chrome-lined-barrels and reported issues with their bolts.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:53 PM   #10
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What would you suggest then?
I suggest that you buy used if you could. Opens up alot of options as far as variety is concerned.
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:54 PM   #11
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The recent PAP M70's are basically flawless. I bought one at that price because of the panic and I'm so glad I bought it rather than a WASR. Yugo's are harder to find accessories for, but their non-chrome-lined barrels are more accurate and also thicker than the WASR (so they hold up better in regards to accuracy whilst rapid firing). It has a heavier duty receiver with also leads to better accuracy. The "bolt issues" are an issue with the first generation imports. Anything that Century is importing now is fine. If you have to buy one, I'd hands down buy the M70. But, you could also try waiting a bit to see if the prices come down. There are 5 M70's at my local store right now for $850, which is still high, but better.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:08 PM   #12
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buy something else for $950. For a reasonable price, both guns have had assorted problems reported but id gamble on the PAP cause if you win the gamble youll have a much nicer gun than a WASR
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:00 PM   #13
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The recent PAP M70's are basically flawless. I bought one at that price because of the panic and I'm so glad I bought it rather than a WASR. Yugo's are harder to find accessories for, but their non-chrome-lined barrels are more accurate and also thicker than the WASR (so they hold up better in regards to accuracy whilst rapid firing). It has a heavier duty receiver with also leads to better accuracy. The "bolt issues" are an issue with the first generation imports. Anything that Century is importing now is fine. If you have to buy one, I'd hands down buy the M70. But, you could also try waiting a bit to see if the prices come down. There are 5 M70's at my local store right now for $850, which is still high, but better.
I don't buy this about the heavier barrel and receiver leading to better accuracy. The only thing that is undeniable is you are carrying extra weight. If you are carrying a backpack and ammo also, it could be a couple of essential things left behind.

I have had a Mak90, an older Yugo., a Vector Bulgy with an original heavy barrel, and I still have a new Slr-101. My most accurate rifles from the bench are my two Sgl's with honorable mention to my Sar1. Everyone's experiences vary from rifle to rifle. The "heavier" idea is more of an opinion than a fact. My preference from my experience is a communist stamped rifle with a chf barrel. We don't use full auto so heavier duty is even more unnecessary on the civi market. To each their own I guess.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:41 PM   #14
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I don't buy this about the heavier barrel and receiver leading to better accuracy. The only thing that is undeniable is you are carrying extra weight. If you are carrying a backpack and ammo also, it could be a couple of essential things left behind.

I have had a Mak90, an older Yugo., a Vector Bulgy with an original heavy barrel, and I still have a new Slr-101. My most accurate rifles from the bench are my two Sgl's with honorable mention to my Sar1. Everyone's experiences vary from rifle to rifle. The "heavier" idea is more of an opinion than a fact. My preference from my experience is a communist stamped rifle with a chf barrel. We don't use full auto so heavier duty is even more unnecessary on the civi market. To each their own I guess.
I hear you. And obviously MMV on any number of variables. Thicker barrels take longer to heat up (which tends to lead to variations in shot placement). Its just physics. The end result? Well anything could make a rifle innaccurate. A poorly constructed Yugo with a heavy barrel won't make it an accurate firearm.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:21 PM   #15
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I would rather buy a non converted Saiga then convert it myself, my .02
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:18 PM   #16
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PAP but only if its the second or third gen model. stay away from the early ones with the single stack bolts.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:21 PM   #17
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I don't buy this about the heavier barrel and receiver leading to better accuracy. The only thing that is undeniable is you are carrying extra weight. If you are carrying a backpack and ammo also, it could be a couple of essential things left behind.
I disagree to an extent. While the heavier barrel may not lead to better accuracy, it keeps better accuracy after about ten shots within, say, a one minute window. I've shot various AKs with standard barrels and have also shot VEPRs. Initial accuracy is very similar with the VEPRs being a bit better (from my experience). However, after firing off some rounds, the VEPRs are superior because they hold better groups.

This is very apparent when shooting a PSL-54C vs a VEPR 54R.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:33 PM   #18
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I disagree to an extent. While the heavier barrel may not lead to better accuracy, it keeps better accuracy after about ten shots within, say, a one minute window. I've shot various AKs with standard barrels and have also shot VEPRs. Initial accuracy is very similar with the VEPRs being a bit better (from my experience). However, after firing off some rounds, the VEPRs are superior because they hold better groups.

This is very apparent when shooting a PSL-54C vs a VEPR 54R.
In x54r, I think you're right, the extra weight is probably worth it.

However, I don't think much of the Veprs in x39 calibers. They're just plain overbuilt, and unnecessarily heavy for the roles those calibers, (and the carbines chambered for them), were built for.

ymmv.

ETA: if it were possible to have a Vepr more akin to an actual RPK, (i.e. longer barrel, factory bipod, select-fire), in the x39 calibers as a civilian in this country, that'd be different.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:38 PM   #19
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Yugos are my favorite ak's. I have many of them. Stamped and milled. One thing I can say is that the yugos are considerably heavier than my other ak's. However, they are alot more accurate also.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:59 PM   #20
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Yugos are my favorite ak's. I have many of them. Stamped and milled. One thing I can say is that the yugos are considerably heavier than my other ak's. However, they are alot more accurate also.
I don't know about "alot", (sic) more accurate. They may be slightly more accurate, but if so, that's likely due to the lack of a chromed bore, and not because the rifles are heavier.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:06 AM   #21
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To the OP: nothing wrong with either rifle, but I'd shop around to find one for less than $950. Imo, that's a bit overpriced.

If the price was the same, (and lower), and I could choose either one, I'd go with the PAP M70, if it was one of the more recent batches of imports, with the proper bolt meant to feed from a double-stack, (standard), mag.

That said, nothing wrong with most WASRs.

That reminds me; I was meeting with a new client today and he owns a police supply and training center. They've got a few EBR's in the back. I asked him about a WASR I saw on the rack and he handed it to me; let me look at it. It was a decent specimen, but I about choked when I noticed "$1375" on the price tag dangling from the trigger guard. I didn't visibly react, and just complimented it and his selection, then handed it back. After seeing that, though, I didn't even want to know what he was asking for the couple bone-stock S-12's he had on display.

I think I'll be buying some boots and bdu's from the sanely-priced section of his store, but he can fuckin keep that WASR.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:14 AM   #22
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In x54r, I think you're right, the extra weight is probably worth it.

However, I don't think much of the Veprs in x39 calibers. They're just plain overbuilt, and unnecessarily heavy for the roles those calibers, (and the carbines chambered for them), were built for.

ymmv.

ETA: if it were possible to have a Vepr more akin to an actual RPK, (i.e. longer barrel, factory bipod, select-fire), in the x39 calibers as a civilian in this country, that'd be different.
As I said, groups open up. Results don't lie. The laws of physics apply to both 7.6x39 and 7.62x54R.

Edit: I'm not trying to justify a heavier AK/barrel for any sort of role in regards to it's caliber. I am simply stating facts in reply to the accuracy vs barrel profile discussion. Personally, I'll take the heavier barrel because the added weight is negligible to me.
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Я люблю поесть морковный пирог. Это так удивительно вкусный, когда свежий из печи.
Мне особенно нравится, когда это довольно горячей, но не так жарко, что я мог обжечься по
супер-горячего кусок пирога, а затем сожгли язык. Это может помешать мне наслаждаться
ополнительных сумм морковный пирог. Спасибо за чтение и наслаждайтесь день. С уважением, Адам
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:20 AM   #23
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As I said, groups open up. Results don't lie. The laws of physics apply to both 7.6x39 and 7.62x54R.
I'm not saying that they don't. What I am saying is that long range accuracy is more of an important consideration for a higher power cartridge like x54r than it is for x39's.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:32 AM   #24
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I guess it depends on *your* definition long-range and practical accuracy. I am sure that each person on this forum has a different opinion on that... to each their own. For me, the heavier barrel makes a noticeable difference and I like that difference.
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Я люблю поесть морковный пирог. Это так удивительно вкусный, когда свежий из печи.
Мне особенно нравится, когда это довольно горячей, но не так жарко, что я мог обжечься по
супер-горячего кусок пирога, а затем сожгли язык. Это может помешать мне наслаждаться
ополнительных сумм морковный пирог. Спасибо за чтение и наслаждайтесь день. С уважением, Адам
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:11 AM   #25
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I don't know about "alot", (sic) more accurate. They may be slightly more accurate, but if so, that's likely due to the lack of a chromed bore, and not because the rifles are heavier.
Call it what you will, or won't. Every yugo rifle I have shot has been very accurate. Wether it's the non chromed barrel or heavier barrel, they are known for being accurate rifles.

And for the record, I never stated that accuracy was because of a heavier barrel..
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:35 AM   #26
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Call it what you will, or won't. Every yugo rifle I have shot has been very accurate. Wether it's the non chromed barrel or heavier barrel, they are known for being accurate rifles.

And for the record, I never stated that accuracy was because of a heavier barrel..
Just out of curiousity, what types of Yugos have you fired?

I bought a M70AB2 kit with original barrel over the weekend that "passes the bullet test very well", (haven't received and examined it myself yet), and I'm looking forward to getting it built and seeing how an original Yugo barrel in good shape compares to my other AK's, (which all have chrome lined barrels), when it comes to accuracy.

I do have one AK with a heavier, type 3 barrel that is also chromed; a SA M-7 Classic. I'll be particularly interested to compare the accuracy of that rifle to the M70AB2's.
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Old 04-04-2013, 03:24 AM   #27
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Just out of curiousity, what types of Yugos have you fired?

I bought a M70AB2 kit with original barrel over the weekend that "passes the bullet test very well", (haven't received and examined it myself yet), and I'm looking forward to getting it built and seeing how an original Yugo barrel in good shape compares to my other AK's, (which all have chrome lined barrels), when it comes to accuracy.

I do have one AK with a heavier, type 3 barrel that is also chromed; a SA M-7 Classic. I'll be particularly interested to compare the accuracy of that rifle to the M70AB2's.
After rereading my last post it comes off like I was being a dick. That was not my intention. Just stating what I have learned over the years.

As far as yugos, I have (and had) m70, m70a, m70b1, and m70b2s. I currently have 8 yugos in my collection (sold some off at the top of the market). All are on the original barrels and some barrel conditions are better than others but are far from being shot out. I've had great results as far as accuracy is concerned, which, is what the yugo rifles are known for. It seems that whenever I shoot my Chinese, Bulgarians, or polish ak's they don't compare in the accuracy department. Maybe the weight has something to do with this or as you stated, non chrome barrels? Don't know but I couldn't see that much of a difference between chromed and no chromed barrels. I could be wrong though. The only other rifle that comes close to my yugos is my Bulgarian ak built off of a milled kit years ago. Funny thing is, that rifle has a original chrome lined barrel.


Either way, Yugo rifles are heavy which to me, is one of their downfalls. I would much rather shoot my non yugo rifles because of the weight difference but the accuracy just isn't there for me.

I would be very interested in hearing a range report of your newly acquired m70b2 with your other rifles when you get it completed.

To the op: I'd still go with the WASR. They are great all around battle rifles with hardly any problems. Crappy finish? Crudely made? You bet! But they flat out work!

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Old 04-04-2013, 08:21 AM   #28
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I agree with most above, either rifle for anything more than $800 is overpriced, even in current market conditions... Unfortunately you live in CA, because I also agree that at $1000 an Arsenal would be the best option.

I don't personally own a WASR 10/63, but do own a PAP M70 (second gen with no feed issues and the side rail scope mount). Both are fairly close in quality and features, but I believe Zastava makes a superior product in the end and would choose the M70 over the WASR. Stay away from any first gen or early M70's as they are known for reliability/feed issues and some still having the single stack bolt. The feed issues are easily fixable through fixing the feed ramp, but that is work that shouldn't have to be done to begin with in my opinion.

The WASR has the chrome-lined barrel and bayonet lug, which is nice. But the PAP M70 has the thicker receiver (which makes the receiver more rigid), heavier barrel, better quality materials and build (to some extent), and nicer furniture (IMO). The M70 generally will not have canted sights or as much magazine wobble as some of the WASR's as well (so I have read).

There are less aftermarket acessories available for the Yugo based PAP M70 as the thicker receiver is not compatible. That is always something to consider if you plan on doing a lot of customizations.

Either way, both are excellent rifles and you won't be disapointed in the end no matter what you choose. Just be careful and inspect the rifle very good prior to buying. There are a ton of videos on Youtube to help in identifying what to look for. Good luck!

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Old 04-04-2013, 08:27 AM   #29
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Picked up a Very Well Made WASR last month for under 700.00. Even had the cleaning rod! Manufactured Feb 2013.
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Old 04-04-2013, 07:42 PM   #30
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I had a PAP, the comb on the buttstock is too high so I got slapped in the cheek every time I pulled the trigger. Traded it for a Maadi Misr-10 if that tells you anything.
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:53 PM   #31
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Look for a MAK90, currently ending on gun broker for UNDER $700
Best AK you can get for the money, twice the current Romanian junk. But a SAR1 is good to go for the Romanian guns, or a maadi, just not a MISR
All will be much less than $950 delivered

And make sure the MAK is straight cut receiver , an angle cut will make you use iron wood custom stock. Here's one of my MAK's

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Old 04-04-2013, 09:09 PM   #32
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:50 PM   #33
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A 5 shot group, the weight of a barrel wouldn't mean as much. I agree that a heavier barrel helps hold groups together with prolonged firing. Yes, Yugo's do have a good rep. for accuracy but I believe it has more to do with the lack of chrome lining as opposed to being way overbuilt. Chinese Ak's are way overbuilt but they don't share the same reputation for accuracy as Yugos or Bulgys despite what Chicom fans want to believe. My own personal experience, the Mak I had couldn't shoot with my Sar1. Many believe the Hungarian Sa85m was the most accurate stamped Ak ever imported.

Bottom line is that the "overbuilt equals accuracy" theory isn't close to being factual. My personal experience from the bench would be 1. Sgl-20 2. Sgl-21. 3. Sar1 4. Slr-101, then it would probably be a toss up between my old Yugo, Vector Bulgy, Chicom, and the junk Wasr10. I had a Hungarian Sa85m but in all fairness the barrel was nearly shot out but it still did ok at 200 yds. Everyone's experiences are all over the map but yes Yugo barrels, Arsenal barrels (Russian and Bulgy), and even Romy barrels do have reputations for good accuracy by Ak standards.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:07 PM   #34
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...I had a Hungarian Sa85m but in all fairness the barrel was nearly shot out but it still did ok at 200 yds...
How could the barrel be even remotely shot out? Did it start out as a heavily used kit?

But then, weren't the SA-85M's exclusively newly produced semi-auto rifles Hungary exported for the civilian market?

I'm confused. How's it possible? You buy it from Bubba who constantly bumpfired case after case of corrosive surplus and never cleaned it?
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:24 PM   #35
adamg01
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Originally Posted by post-apocalyptic View Post
How could the barrel be even remotely shot out? Did it start out as a heavily used kit?

But then, wasn't the SA-85M's exclusively newly produced semi-auto rifles produced to export for the civilian market?

I'm confused. How's it possible? You buy it from Bubba who constantly bumpfired case after case of corrosive surplus and never cleaned it?
It had been abused. I couldn't say for sure on the round count but it had been shot a ton. I wasn't the original owner.
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