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Old 07-11-2006, 02:44 AM   #1
cntrailrider
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Default 7.62x25 Drum-fed about to begin

Magwell from http://www.lichtenbergresearch.com/ Stretched




As far as I know, there's no cure

Steve
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:19 AM   #2
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WE DEMAND A STEP BY STEP WITH PICTURES!!! pretty please?
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Old 07-11-2006, 11:51 AM   #3
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+2 Very interested in this one!
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:02 PM   #4
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OK Guys, I'll do my best. Won't be a speedy process, but it will be shared. The magwell alone has my appetite whetted

Steve
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Old 07-11-2006, 01:27 PM   #5
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Great project! I shall be following along too.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:38 PM   #6
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I've been lurking around for about 6 months but this thread pushed me over the edge. I've been planning and buying parts for this build for about two months (without the lichtenberg magwell) cntrailrider, will I rain on you parade if I post what I have figured out so far?

Aaron
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:49 PM   #7
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very clever
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:45 PM   #8
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Aaron -

Please bring it on - RAIN is what makes the crops grow! I for one would really enjoy hearing your shared thoughts - unconcerned about 'thread hijacking'

16r40 - with your 'seniority number', people LISTEN. Like E.F.Hutton

Busy in the shop - pics coming soon.

Steve
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:11 AM   #9
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Default Drums___9mm SUOMI vs. 7.62x25 PPSH41

First, I would like to thank CNTRAILRIDER, GETIT, AND RODGER...
not trying to hijack here, just thought my answers would more then likely come from member(s) viewing this thread...

I now have two PPSH43 kits... an 17" 9mm barrel blank...plenty of ak stuff, and two of Rodgers' magwell adaptors on the way...

I am going to build a 43 model with stick mags...and a 9mm SUOMI drum..version...but I really like the drum look...

SEEKING DRUM ADVISE;
After doing some research...I hear good things about the reliability of then SUOMI drums, but just the opposite for the Chinese and Russian made PPSH41 drums (nightmare dependability)...Can some one help with more information...
Thanks

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Old 07-14-2006, 03:48 AM   #10
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Btrapr1 -

Thanks for the kind words (standard gun-culture etiquette) All I know is the Suomi / 9mm drums from Robertrtg.com WORK and they're $25 each. I'm just about to jump into the 7.62x25 realm.

Doubletapme at gunsnet is who I credit for steering me this route, and Roger for making it indescribably easier. Kernelkrink did a drumfed conversion over a year ago.

Here's what I'm starting with. It's gonna be a screw build - everything, including my rails - since my spot welder is out. Bent a TAPCO flat last night; it will use an AMD65 front trunnion & FCG, and the rest is scavenged leftovers / bargain grab bag stuff, and a FAL FS/GB. PPSH43 barrel from CAMOGUY should arrive any day - because it's 10", it will be a pistol. If it turns out OK, I have two Mauser blanks to re-chamber in 7.62x25 for carbine builds. I try to always say IF, to guard against over-confidence

The pistol grip is just something to hang onto during the build.
When the magwell is in place, I believe it will be rigid enough w/o a spacer. But I screwed the pre-drilled rails into the spacer holes for positioning. Trigger guard screws use slightly ground / fitted nuts. No real need to trim the front two as long as they clear the hammer spring

First error: Instead of measuring DOWN .75", I thought I was being conservative by only going .73" - thought process was upside down! Measure DOWN AT L E A S T .75"!! Keep your scribe lines short

Using a square helps get your vertical marks accurate. Don't wing it. That countersink (flush screw so the selector lever will clear) gets cleaned up later

My goal is to get the MW close or against the trigger-guard - this MW already had the two front holes drilled & tapped 10/32 when I received it (one of Roger's early prototypes) I temporarily screwed it to the outside to check 'rear-ear' placement - how close I could get it, if I used the pre-existing holes. Since it's a 9mm MW, stretched to 7.62x25, it looks like they will work! It's going to be a tight and challenging fit on the mag-catch

Now I'm committed - and the .73" error comes to light. Measure twice, cut once - but be THINKING the whole time

Checking it against a previous build, I believe it will all work out in the end, and continued with the other side - gone through 4 heavy dremel wheels so far

Had to open up (widen) the front of the existing well cut-out, on the bottom, to get the MW in place. My intent was to remove as little as possible, and still get the MW in w/o breaking it. Used a spacer-block behind the mag catch to keep it out of the way

I grab the front ear (most fragile part) with a pliers, and push IN on the back ears - took several trips in and out before I got it the whole way in, positioned correctly. Just like sex. Except I had to open it up some more with a FILE (couldn't find the axe)


Stay tuned!

Steve

Last edited by cntrailrider; 07-14-2006 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:37 AM   #11
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Part II

This is a lousy picture, but it's finally in place. Been on it about 2 hours, w/o rushing

This is a little better - since the MW will use the same screws that support the front of the lower rails, it has to be centered & square. I won't be able to drill and tap those screws until the barrel is fitted, since the 'depth' of the drum, for proper feeding, is critical - the new plan is to fit the depth of the MW by removing metal from the TOP of it, to help counter for the .73" error, and seat the whole thing in deeper

Side-to-side centering in the rear (selector lever is already shortened - borrowed from a previous build)

I made too large of a cut-out around the rear-ears of the MW. The 'new plan' may help counter that a little. The trigger-guard was a freebe - one ear was cut off, but cut portion was included - it will be usuable, but need to get that TIG welded. Blocked the catch back to keep it out of the way

Checking the drum to be sure it's square

This is what we're shootin' for

Quick mock-up before turning in helps the dream process.

The BC is from 2XTM #2 - I cut it too short to use on anything else, back when I was trying to build the shortest pistol. AZ earned and hung onto that title. Rule #1: NEVER thow any gun part away, no matter how ruined it may seem. Rule #2: Store it in a logical place for easy retrieval.
Well it was perfect for a straight blowback application. The 'piston' is simply a guide, made from a 1/2" bolt and hardened; tapered on the end to account for the slightly lower FAL FS/GB. I'll get a bit deeper into that later, and how 'resurrecting' the ruined bolt carrier (and a couple overly-shortened recoil-spring guides) all worked out in the end.

Tomorrow the plan is to chop and install the front trunnion, then play 'leap frog' on the front trunnion screws, to shorten the receiver.

I've never documented a build before, so bear with me. I'll be sharing the mistakes along with the progress, and hopefully someone will benifit

Adios for now

Steve in El Paso

Last edited by cntrailrider; 07-14-2006 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 07-14-2006, 01:19 PM   #12
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I can't wait to see that barrel on there! Is this going to be a screw build? Are you screwing the rails? Got to watch those late night jobs you start geting funny on the measuring....I only stayed up until 2 AM and was losing it. CNTRAILRIDER , you the man. I will try to get some pick up of my project somehow.
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Old 07-14-2006, 05:47 PM   #13
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hey guys if you guys need a barrel sleeve Roger sell the barrel sleeve that will fit the 7.62x25 ppsh barrel perfect.Get the one size on .188 it fits like a glove perfect.
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:47 PM   #14
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cntrailrider, you're way ahead of me, I'm still waiting for magwells. I have a new SKS barrel to use as a donor and bought a matching 5.45 trunnion, bolt, and carrier from K-VAR--the .223 bolt is too small.

Are you using the gas system or straight blowback?
Are you using a .308 diameter barrel or the original .310?
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Old 07-15-2006, 02:23 AM   #15
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I believe he is using a PPS43 barrel . I think that is a .308 diameter .
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Old 07-15-2006, 02:40 AM   #16
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Conundrum / Camoguy -

Barrel arrived today (Thanks CAMOGUY) it sure is small & short! 9 5/8" and that's why this will be a pistol. It's too small of dia to use a FAL GB/FS. Will have to use an AK GB

I have three Mauser blanks in .308 - according to panaceabeachbum (Thompson Machine) the 7.62x25 uses a .308 barrel. He will be rechambering them for carbine builds

Straight blowback - simplest I can do. Contrary to what some of you may think, I am a garage tinkerer (literally) and not a home gunsmith.

Btrapr1 -

The PPSH41 drums DO have troublesome feed lips. I didn't learn that until last night, when hand cycling (w/o spring) Polished mine with dremel, improved somewhat. The spring / follower is very strong and creates alot of friction between the round & the drum lips. The originals must've had heavy bolts for slow & weighty momentum - a stronger recoil spring may not leave enough time for spent casings to clear.......we'll see. May need a lead-filled 'piston' (guide) for this to work in blowback....16r40 may have some usuable feedback.....

Considering bending another flat ($10 loss and two hours labor) to make this build RIGHT. No excuse for sloppy mis-measuring

I'm just a hard-headed case, and determined. This is my way of giving back some of what akfiles.com has given to me. Lord's Blessed me with a decent income, decent camera, and strong will. What goes around....you know

All builders - please share what you can + or - it helps

Steve

PS for the newcomers, FS = Front sight GB = Gas Block RSB = Rear sight block B = bolt BC = bolt carrier give it a year and you'll be posting your breakthroughs in the same terms

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Old 07-15-2006, 01:04 PM   #17
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cntrailrider -Yep that barrel is small but will be handy for a pistol build it is alot lighter than the 308 barrel I have for my carbine 7.62x25. You maybe alot better off with the AK front sight, the FAL block has no side to side adjustment and you will have to get a after market rear sight that allows side to side windage. I have to find one myself I hear that the willians sight for the AK will do this. The rear sight is still one of my "got to figure it out' on my project. I do have a spare romy front sight if you need one. Also if you make it blow back you don't need an AK gas block.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:52 PM   #18
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Alot of progress here, both in building, and in understanding. Unfortunately, no new pics yet. The more I looked at the MW-to-receiver fit, the less I liked it.

I used an Uzi barrel sleeve from Roger to mount the '43 barrel - it required MINIMAL turning of the barrel to fit nicely in the sleeve.
The '43 barrel has a slight feed ramp in the breech face, much like a Suomi. Because of the smaller dia bullet, and the height of it in the drum (almost touches the ejector rail) the cartridge never touches the ramp on the MW.

Lips are narrower on the '41 drum. I narrowed the B-stripping-lug & BC to clear the lips. and ground a slight bevel on the front to make sure it centers.

Report to follow, with pics

Steve

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Old 07-16-2006, 09:47 PM   #19
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cntrailrider, just so I've got this straight or not straight. The MW cut in the receiver is not parallel to the top edge but is shallower in the front by 5 degrees. My calipers read .065". Is this anywhere close to what you have found?
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:29 PM   #20
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Conumdrum -

'not straight' is what I'm shootin for. About ready to cut the MW recess on receiver #2. In #1, when it was perpindicular to the upper rails, it would only feed (hand cycling) about half the time. Tilted the drum (bottom forward) and presto. Every time. Doing that gave my cartridge a 'pre slant' for lack of a better term - has it already pointed uphill just a bit

It never contacts the MW ramp - only the mildly ramped portion of the breech, which is pretty steep

I don't claim to have this thing figured out! YET.

Tonight may be a late one - hope to post pics soon.

Steve
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Old 07-17-2006, 04:03 AM   #21
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This should be self-explanatory








Glad I started over on a new receiver. Need to clean up the cuts. Receiver will be bobbed 'one hole' / about 3/4". Used an Uzi barrel sleeve from Roger and the PPSH43 barrel, it press-fit with minimum turning. I don't have a protractor handy, but would estimate the drum 'tilt' angle at around 10 to 15 degrees - that gives sufficient nose up for cartridges to chamber smoothly - VERY short cartridge travel, and the bolt clears the next round fine. Plan to flatten what's left of the dimples.

Steve
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Old 07-17-2006, 10:31 AM   #22
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DUDE GREAT PICTURES keep up the awesome work
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:32 PM   #23
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I have to agree with Reynaldo.
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Old 07-20-2006, 03:58 AM   #24
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Been on the road. Soon as I get home and in the shop, will have more. Need to build up the top of the MW to compensate for the tilt. Then drill, tap & screw'er in and she'll be pretty much ready to go. I'm pleased with the new fit

Man this thing has a short cartridge travel - slam shut & she's in - so short that un-fired rounds (bullet still in) barely eject - she's tight. May have to grind the ejector back a hair.....better than loose

You'll see, when it gets going........

Steve
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:22 PM   #25
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Default How short is short?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cntrailrider
Man this thing has a short cartridge travel
How long do you figure the bolt carrier travels? Is it short enough stroke to reduce the OAL of the receiver? If I can get the trigger linkage worked out, I want to build this up as a bullpup SBR, less than 20" buttstock to flashhider. The shorter the receiver the longer the barrel I can put on it.

Aaron
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Old 07-21-2006, 07:43 PM   #26
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Default Hvy bolt

I suspect the subgun was able to strip rounds from the drum because the bolt was quite heavy to reduce the cyclic rate....

Great work!
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Old 07-22-2006, 03:31 AM   #27
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Conundrum - The BC travel is 3.5" but the CARTRIDGE TRAVEL is short. It makes no ramp contact, except for a very small ramp area in the breech. The drum is tilted, so the nose points almost directly into the chamber

I wanted it perpendicular, like a Thompson, but it didn't work out that way
Top of the next-up cartridge almost contacts the ejector spur

On a short BC stroke, having enough space & time for the spent casing to eject clear, before the next cartridge is coming forward, becomes a challenge. It can be delayed by trimming the recoil spring - but can become a balancing act between being slow enough, yet still having enough umph to cycle reliably. Then theres the buffer. I'm no expert, and got caught in that trap on my 9mm. Don't know if that helps at all......not meaning to sound negative


Here's another picture story. Built up the magwell to about a 10 degree tilt. Welded both sides - they're hidden, so didn't remove any more than I had to, for fit & strength



Never did get around to flattening the dimples - afraid of buggering up the border around the drum





(if you have a problem with my welding, just know that I do too, so you're welcome to keep that problem to yourself) The welds are strong but not pretty. Figured best to share, than not - someone who can REALLY WELD may benefit while I save for a TIG

Mag Catch



Hardened the catch portion with Kasenit. Drums click right in place - extension makes them easy to remove. They're tight enough that sometimes the spring doesn't latch them in the whole way; gentle pull on the extension seats the catch - will leave it that way - there's NO drum side-slop

Steve

Last edited by cntrailrider; 07-23-2006 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:07 AM   #28
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Something interesting - when I was trying to build a shorty-shorty pistol, I cut a BC, recoil spring, and guide way too short, but saved them. A few weeks ago, I was putting the 9mm AK pistols away (only had one shared B & BC between both at the time) and slipped the 'ruined' BC in one to keep the recoil spring in place, to pop a cover on. By accident, I found a shortened receiver doesn't require the FRONT HALF of the recoil spring guide. Just feed the spring in the BC, seat the tail in the trunnion - BC houses the spring in place. Old cut springs, G3 springs, cut / broken RSG's.......(just don't try stacking sections of springs - they'll screw)



PPSH43 barrel is too short (10") for a carbine, and I'm not into barrel extensions. The tube is a left-over from long ago - that's why it's this length, for now. Have a 19" Mauser .30 barrel soon to re-chambered, and plan to swap F & R trunnions for a carbine conversion.

Camera lens makes it look "bent" - it's not! Distorts the drum too
The ultimate would be a barrel setup with a take-down nut, like an Uzi

Barrel is very slender, and needed a sleeve for the FAL GB/FS. Didn't want to turn it (for AK barrel attachments) since it's tapered and could lead to problems. I'm no pro machinist
Tomorrow it gets all new screws, then test-fire, and we'll see how accurate the barrel is. If it IS, it'll stay this length, and I'll decide on a better tube set-up and some handguards

Total cost = $150 including one drum. Bought 8K rounds back when it was 9 cents a round. Not bad, for a garage tinkerer using mostly leftovers

Steve

Last edited by cntrailrider; 07-22-2006 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 07-22-2006, 12:24 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFreeman
I suspect the subgun was able to strip rounds from the drum because the bolt was quite heavy to reduce the cyclic rate....

Great work!
@ 900 RPM with a heavy bolt I'd like to see the rate with a light bolt!

Great job Cntrailrider, you are really coming along on your build.
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Old 07-22-2006, 02:26 PM   #30
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Thanks Kernel -

Here's one more

Open to suggestions for the front end. Even thought about using an AMD vented handguard outside the GB but that's too far out there. It should at least have SOME degree of convention, appearance-wise. If it's accurate, may go w/ an AK GB, seperate sight, and everything up front standard length

This would be a good one to SBR. An AMD side-folder would fold nicely over the drum

Video will follow with honest results + or -

Steve
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Old 07-22-2006, 07:08 PM   #31
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WOW Steve ! You are coming along great. I just finished a Romy for a friend and back to working on my AMD and my Yugo 7.62x25 conversion....well more like franken- AK. I may have missed it but how much did you shorten the reciever? That barrel looks alot different on that pistol than on my floor ...I am glad your gonna put it to good use .
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Old 07-22-2006, 07:34 PM   #32
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My congrats on a great project with excellent workmanship with pictures and details.

Guys like you are the reason America is in the forefront of innovation.
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Old 07-23-2006, 02:50 AM   #33
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Thanks for the encouraging words, Gentlemen

I'm not much of a builder - just an experimenting tinkerer; and that's not being modest. It's fun trying new stuff

Camo, I jumped the top screws on the front trunnion back one hole - like leap-frog - which took about 3/4" off the receiver. I guess you read about the recoil-spring guide.... Funny, also spent most of my day helping a new friend complete his first (AMD65) build. So we test-fired both at the same time. Your barrel shoots very nice - far more accurate than I expected. Won't be dickering with the length...want to try a bipod to see what it's capable of

In a few hours, will post the video (dinner-time right now). It sure wasn't 100% - you'll see the honest real results. More like about 50/50. Ejection path was not consistent & that wasn't a good sign..........but the drum feed was the main problem. Bullets kept taking a nose-dive in the drum. I have some self-educating to do on drums. All ears, if anyone has advice......5 more on the way from CDNN, which should shed some light as to what an 'average' drum is

GOOD NEWS - my first 9mm pistol (Suomi MW, welded) worked GREAT. Not one problem in two drums. Previous intermittent problem was the bolt RECESS / CUP not centering on the chambered cartridge (it has no trunnion 'ears' to center it; was my first one & I DIDN'T KNOW) Finally got it smacking centered & really going. She ain't pretty, but I like it alot. Might have our REAL TIG WELDER at work do some short 'overhang skirts' over the MW recess to 'nice'n it up', then it'd look pretty nice - worth shoe-polishing the handguards. You can expect another 'Two Handed' video soon, with MANY more rounds fired. Not practical, but it's fun

I just can't wait till KC in Oct. to get some badly needed trunnions, barrels, drums, furniture, etc. Starkravingmags has been keeping me supplied - always comes through with honest pricing and quick shipping......+++1 for Starkravingmags in OR

Vid in a few hours

Steve
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Old 07-23-2006, 03:52 AM   #34
cntrailrider
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Default Here's the Vid

http://media.putfile.com/762x25-Firs...fire-not-great
Lost weight doing long hauls on the road; hence the patriotic suspenders, till I get back to normal

Look close and you can see the drum feed really was the main problem. She chambers fine, if a round is up & ready. Cartridge path is so short it has no choice! FTF's were nose-dives in the drum. Ejection path is not consistent, but they clear fine with the cover on. Pic ^ shows how much the ejection port was enlarged. I scalloped it to match the end of the trimmed selector lever

This build is using B & BC combo from 9mm #2. Headspace was set by adjusting the barrel sleeve position in the trunnion. Here's the pic again


PPSH43 breech 'lip' is butted front, against the sleeve (you can see there's almost no ramp) minimal turning required. Aside from the MW fitting, this was the heart of the build

When I get another bolt, plan is to put a much longer 'piston' (1/2" bolt shank) on the BC and use regular AK length tube, HG's, and AK GB & FS. Added weight may give enough delay for the next round to spring up. I'm not cutting this barrel down. Added weight should also transfer to higher velocity

Recoil is very light with the overall weight w/ drum. Would be the PERFECT SBR w/ AMD side-folder; or Post Sample with Tromix Link. Unfortunately I'm no CII - yet - needa work on that

Steve

PS If you think my welding is bad, you should see some of the Post Sample MG's at various shoots - Stens and other stuff make my MW look like fine art. Frankly I'm very embarrassed posting pics of my 'welding'. But it's strong, and someone may benefit. And that's all that counts. It all comes around
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:41 PM   #35
ndenway
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I'd like to see pics of how the bolt and carrier are modified.
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