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View Poll Results: Does the 2XTM Drum-fed design appeal to you?
Yes - I'm going to build one, no doubt 20 35.09%
It's neat - I'd like to build one 28 49.12%
Impractical - just a novel creation 7 12.28%
No - it's an abomination of the AK spirit 2 3.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-16-2006, 02:29 AM   #1
cntrailrider
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Default 9mm Drum-fed AK Pistol

A fellow builder in Vermont came up with a design that really caught my eye. He originally built it for his 11 year old daughter. His screen-name is 'Doubletapme', and it's come to be known as the '2XTM'. The moment I saw pics of it, I HAD to have one.

This thread's on the latest build - my 2nd 2XTM Pistol. It was a challenge, but this second one is all screw built - no welding - except for the bolt & carrier mods. The first one was welded. I am no master welder by any stretch, but it's VERY stong, and it works. Just doesn't look as nice.

You'll need to turn the trunnion sleeve (to fit a 9mm barrel) and the bolt. I used a Sten barrel on the 2nd one. Ready-made (about 90%) magwells are available from http://www.lichtenbergresearch.com/ for I believe $55. You MUST follow the instructions closely. They may soon be carrying the bolt sleeve, to adapt your '74 bolt to a '47 carrier. If you go to Lichtenberg Research, tell them Steve sent you. Suomi drums, which cost about $25 are still easy to find. If you've already built an AK pistol, you could build this.

No finish, nor front furniture made yet, but here she is


The piston? It's since been bobbed. Combo FS/GB is a FAL from TAPCO for $4

Here's a family portrait

The drum-fed's are the first AK pistols I've done in two years. The design was too neat not to try. May build one more, as a carbine, since I have 11 drums..... 11 x 71 = 781 rounds loaded oughta be enough to get by

Vid of it's first test fire http://media.putfile.com/2XTM-Pistol-2nd-build
213 rounds/3 drums, and wouldn't you know one FTF - the last drum, which I was videoing. That drum was loaded with ammo used for cycling checks and headspacing, and the cartridge didn't seat. All in all, not bad. Then I was out. It's not exactly promo material, but it gives you an idea.

I look old in the vid, but still feel like a KID when I'm building in my shop!

Steve in El Paso

Last edited by cntrailrider; 06-16-2006 at 10:06 PM. Reason: After a few beers I added a poll to guage interest
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Old 06-16-2006, 06:47 AM   #2
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steve,

looks damn nice man, i have finally made some progress with my shorty. az has blown us out of the water(as far as 6" bbl goes) but dopesn't mean i still wont have the shortest one around here

as soon as i pick up the trunion, i'll post some picks

that gas tube sure is a tight fit....

have fun with the "parabelum twins"

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Old 06-16-2006, 11:14 AM   #3
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Will those feed from the 30rnd Soumi mags and the 50 rnd "coffin" mags?
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Old 06-16-2006, 03:53 PM   #4
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cntrailrider, please post info. on what needs to be done,.....and damn you look old. 70ish y/o??
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Old 06-16-2006, 11:13 PM   #5
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Default Building a 2XTM

Beer jager

I have a web site under construction that details the info you need to build a 2XTM

lichtenbergresearch.com

Look under these heading:

AK 9mm conversion
Buidling a 2XTM
Mag Well installation

Hopefully this will get you primed and answer most of you questions.

Hope to have the 2XTM video up and running by Monday the 19th.

Thanks
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Old 06-17-2006, 03:14 AM   #6
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Roger guided me through these builds. He IS http://www.lichtenbergresearch.com/ His magwell is lighter, stonger, and MUCH easier to install. I predict several hundred will be sold, as well as bolt sleeves, barrel sleeves, etc. This mod is not beyond your average home-builder. It's been pre-figured out, and shared by Doubletapme. Many Thanks to him for sharing his wonderful innovation.

Roger's given permission to post this video, produced by his son, which showcases the 2XTM (some excellent bump-fire's here) http://media.putfile.com/2XTM-
If it doesn't give you BUILD FEVER, nothing will

For details on the 2XTM evolution and build info, I recommend visiting this site:
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showth...8&page=1&pp=30

There are alot of talented builders there, working on a variety of firearms - master machinists, tig welders, etc. Flaming will not be tolerated, so behave yourself. It's a shame I feel that needs mentioned. Rhino66, Kernel, AZHonkey, ETG, and many other AK master-builders are there, as well as builders of .22 pistols up to MG42's and .50's & Class II builders seriously at work, developing new designs. Their bread and butter depends on it. John Moses Browning would be proud. AKfiles.com is where my interests were kindled, so you're in the RIGHT PLACE, for starters. Could inspire a CIII collection worth more than your house
and an alarm system.

Don't overlook the poll at the top - it helps guage interest and you never know who may PM you with assistance in your build

Have a good one - no smashed fingers and wear your saftey glasses

Steve in El Paso

PS - Beer Jager - Jeesh man I'm only 51! I'd pulled an all-nighter in the vid

Last edited by cntrailrider; 12-25-2006 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:25 AM   #7
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that video is awesome. I want one! I'll be gettin' ahold of you shortly for the parts. What's the "bolt stop" look like?? Mentions it on the site but no pic. or other info.

I figure if a old man can build it, I can too.

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Old 06-17-2006, 05:25 AM   #8
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Don't have a clue as to what the hell I would do with it, BUT IT IS COOOOOOL AS HELL. Good job.

Kevin
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:46 AM   #9
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Can't get off that 'old man stuff' can ya?? Well, I invited it - and this is alot more casual than gunsnet

OK on the first one I goofed. Cut the trunnion off in front of the rotation lugs - it's a wonder the bolt centers on the cartridge, but it does. I cut off the entire portion of the bolt stop (left side of the tunnion, with the serial #) was thinking SHORT PISTOL - that was a major mistake. Leave that on.


That's what you set your headspace with.

The length of THAT prevents the bolt from slamming into the breech surface - just close enough to engage the extractor. You can headspace with a live cartridge if your firing pin is out. BE CAREFUL. It's all in the barrel sleeve, and how deep you set your barrel.

Before headspacing / checking sleeve for fit. Here the sleeve was twice too long - good thing, because the half I was using turned into a 'slip fit' after repeated fitting; wound up using the other 'mint' half. This shows the barrel inserted too far - not very enlightening but you get the general idea

Barrel positon is critical to the magwell since you want the nose of the cartridge to be inserting into the chamber before it's completely out of the mag feed-lips.

Mine's about 1/4" travel to insertion. Magwell ramp is the key. You must study it closely or it will not work. It's a fun study.

Look at Roger's instructions, and you'll see how to PROPERLY trim the trunnion. Follow the directions and pics CLOSELY. This IS within the realm of the non-machinist home-builder. Just be patient and work slow, and you'll soon be posting your own video with positive results.

My second one centers perfectly. No sweat. Bolt centers up on the chambered round like water through a funnel. The 'side ears' left on the trunnion are what guides the bolt to center. They also aid in lower rail placement.

Even blowback's require headspace - that was a lesson for me

You'll also need to build a mag-catch

It can be screwed on (my first was welded) the vertical channel in the rear MW will keep it aligned. SLIGHT bevel on the end gives it a nice 'click' and is easier to release. The catch should be hardened!

Keep us posted

Steve in El Paso

Last edited by cntrailrider; 06-21-2006 at 05:03 AM. Reason: Added several pics
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Old 06-17-2006, 09:12 AM   #10
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Default From the really old man

Beeer Jager
Steve maybe old but I am really old. Besides that I am short, fat, ugly, half blind and can't hear well either. An all nighter for me is getting a good nights sleep. Go to bed at night and all I think about is 2XTM's.

The 2XTM is a challenging build but doable. Tested my third build yesterday. Hope you find the web site informative. My son put it together and he will be here for father's day. Plan on reworking it a little and dropping any page not active. Also adding the sleeves and turning on the video.

I hand cut the first 4 mag wells. Then went to a shop and had 10 more sets machine cut. Those are mostly spoken for now. Will have the machine shop cut another batch next week if there is a demand. It takes me a couple of hours to form up the MW once I have the patterns. I call them 80% Mag Wells because the builder still has a lot of fitting to do to get them fit to their receivers. Trying to work with the scrap Suomi MW was a pain. I did it and so did Doubletapme. Our mag well makes it easier to get it located right and saves a bunch of time.

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Old 06-17-2006, 03:37 PM   #11
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it's different, I'll give you that.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:50 PM   #12
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I want one (gotta have one), with all the pieces I can get you to make (magwell, sleeves, etc.) to save me time (which I cannot have shipped in on the big brown truck). What else should I buy to get ready, besides a bunch of Suomi drums? And does 922r come into play on this creature?

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Old 06-18-2006, 12:34 AM   #13
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922(r) applies to rifles and shotguns. A rifle build would require US parts, a pistol build would not.
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:16 AM   #14
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Default What's need for a 2XTM

AKXTC
You will need a 9mm barrel. If you can find a Suomi kit with a drum at a reasonable price the barrels are usually excellent. You need an AK-74 bolt and a doner AK kit is needed for the trunnions, sights, top cover, safety, springs etc. I like the $70 missing parts kits form Century for doners. Also need receiver or a flat. I can supply the Mag Well and sleeve for the bolt. Once you decide what barrel you will use I may be able to provide an appropriate piece of tubing for you to make a barrel sleeve. Remember this build is more for the advanced builder this is not a project for a newbie.

I think Suomi drums would be an excellent investment right now.
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:55 AM   #15
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I've got a 9mm pistol already and frankly, I just would never use an AK, 9mm.. What I'd really like to see is a mod to .308.

Mac
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:43 AM   #16
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I want one before the pussyass kalihomo senators ruin it for us.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger
AKXTC
You will need a 9mm barrel. If you can find a Suomi kit with a drum at a reasonable price the barrels are usually excellent. You need an AK-74 bolt and a doner AK kit is needed for the trunnions, sights, top cover, safety, springs etc. I like the $70 missing parts kits form Century for doners. Also need receiver or a flat. I can supply the Mag Well and sleeve for the bolt. Once you decide what barrel you will use I may be able to provide an appropriate piece of tubing for you to make a barrel sleeve. Remember this build is more for the advanced builder this is not a project for a newbie.

I think Suomi drums would be an excellent investment right now.
Rodger
Hey Rodger,
Man I am ready-got my skills level up, tools a plenty and just last night jumped on a Suomi kit and a modest four (4) 71rd Suomi drum mags.
Hook me up, please.
What is the best way to go about acquiring the magwell and sleeve?
I have been reading the links provided and am ready to jump in with both feet.
I'm sure I'll run into problems or have questions but it appears that knowledgeable people are more than ready to offer advice.

Last edited by akxtc; 06-20-2006 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink
922(r) applies to rifles and shotguns. A rifle build would require US parts, a pistol build would not.
Thanks KernelKrink, I think I'll make it a pistol.
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Old 06-18-2006, 03:27 PM   #19
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so this is gas operated?
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:34 PM   #20
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No, it's designed to be used with a modified bolt and carrier to allow blowback operation.
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Old 06-18-2006, 05:41 PM   #21
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Default 2XTM mag wells and parts

AKXTC
All ordering info, install instructions and other build info is on our web site lichtenbergresearch.com I request that anyone thinking about buying one of our mag wells review the install instructions before you order. The on line instructions will be up dated as buiilders identify new problems. For Father's day my son is updating this site.
Rodger
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Old 06-19-2006, 02:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger
AKXTC
All ordering info, install instructions and other build info is on our web site lichtenbergresearch.com I request that anyone thinking about buying one of our mag wells review the install instructions before you order. The on line instructions will be up dated as buiilders identify new problems. For Father's day my son is updating this site.
Rodger
He did a good job. There were a few issues (broken images) that are now fixed.

More info on the build (pictures of a build in progress, more detail on steps involved) would be nice.

Rodger replies to emails very quickly, BTW.
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Old 06-19-2006, 04:08 PM   #23
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Roger -

Website looks GREAT. You could lighten up on the 'credits' - makes it a little cluttered, and you know not to take that the wrong way. You can be PROUD of your son Eric

The MW truly is the ticket - I'm not paid to say that either - but it requires no prepping, it's lighter, and more durable. On my first build, one of the rear ears cracked off the Suomi well and it turned into a nightmare. Not to mention contraction when welding it in (can't really be screwed with any integrity) required a total re-work before drums would fit in again.

Note - with the new MW I didn't use a spacer. Don't think it needs one. Side-to-side support is VERY strong. I believe a U-shaped tab could be added to the rear of the new MW, so it could be screwed into the pre-drilled spacer holes on the flats. Adding it before installation would make installation more difficult. It's already a tight fit - I bent the front section of the receiver (front sides of the 'old' magwell) out slightly to get the new MW in. Holding the new MW by the FRONT leg with pliers minimizes bending, going in or out during fitting.

Before putting the BC in, lock the hammer onto the disconnector with the trigger pulled - then the carrier slips right in and forward, over it. You won't have to cram your finger in there and depress the hammer to get the bolt/carrier combo across the hammer.

Sten Barrel works pretty good for a pistol. Minimizes lathe work, and I'm not sure how much the heat from turning affects accuracy; presently searching for a 16" Uzi barrel for a carbine build. To be honest I'll admit a drum-fed pistol isn't very practical (what AK pistol is?) but it is a slick toy. One more as a carbine and I'll be satisfied. I have two Uzi 9mm carbines and a Marlin Camp/Model 9 and love 'em.

RobertRTG.com still has drums for sale @ $25; four just arrived and they're NEW. Also '74 firing pins for $2.50 Interordnance has '74 bolts for $40 so I've been told. I like AZ's idea for sleeving a 7.62 bolt head, but I'm not a TIG expert.

Guys I'm no longer on vacation - back to work - so little time to build or respond to posts. Home for a few hours and finally making front handguards. Sounds like everyone is on the right track

Steve

Last edited by cntrailrider; 06-23-2006 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 06-20-2006, 05:43 PM   #24
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Several pics added, above

When TAPCO was selling drums for $20 a while back, MPA came out with this for about $700

I ordered one. The moment I took it out of the box, I knew it was a major mistake. Weighed a ton. Decent design, but the receiver with the drum magwell was made out of what seemed to be 1/4" steel plate! Very overweight barrel. Not very 'maneuverable' for a 9mm. Took a year to re-sell it.

This is better, cheaper, and you build it yourself.

Steve

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Old 06-20-2006, 09:27 PM   #25
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I would like one just for the oh sh&* factor!That would be neat medicine to prevent a carjacking or home invasion,wouldn't it?
Yeah,it might be useless in a real situation,but I wouldn't say no to having one in my GMH bag.tedbo
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Old 06-23-2006, 12:39 PM   #26
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Progress, anyone? Anxious to see your build pics!

You don't need a Suomi kit for this, now that Roger is in the Magwell business. What a breakthrough for the home-builder. Just the magwell, your choice of 9mm barrel, and a couple sleeves - one for the barrel, & one for the bolt - unless you've already got a '74 B&C combo.

Steve

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Old 06-23-2006, 04:42 PM   #27
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rogers magwells should help people alot.Im just in the begginning of a 9mm ak build.
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Old 06-23-2006, 05:58 PM   #28
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started the 2xtm build this week.i spent 2 to 3 hours removing the old suomi magwell,real piece of shit.rodgers magwell came in the mail on thursday,took about 45 mins. to install with very little triming.its not worth the trouble trying to salvage the suomi magwell.click on installation on his web sight and it will walk you through the whole process.as the build progresses i will post more pictures on this thread.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:25 PM   #29
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Great pictures.Looks great so far.
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Old 06-24-2006, 03:14 AM   #30
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AZ -

Looking GREAT - Thanks for posting the pics! You're right about the Suomi magwell not being worth the trouble - compared to Roger's custom-made magwells. Can't wait to see the completed project! You've been THE cutting-edge AK Pistol-Crafter for a long time.

I THINK WE NEED TO GET ROGER TO BUILD A PPSH41 WELL FOR 7.62x25 same jig, stretched / split insert

Here's a rushed attempt at some handguards. Back on the road and little home-time.


Vents are kinda large - that's a genuine 5 minute Kiwi boot-polish finish. Have to wait till Knob Creek in October to get some more $5 furniture sets. This whole build cost about $200 using an AMD65 kit, Sten barrel, and '74 bolt & carrier bought just for it (greatest expense) #3 will use a sleeved bolt to get around that cost. I'm frugal and not ashamed of it.

Here's the trimmed selector lever on #2 - MW is 1/8" forward of TG & spacer since I played leap-frog on the top trunnion screws. Couldn't get it against and still have space for the catch, but will somehow on #3

Speaking of selector levers - perfect selector-lever dimples: Ramp a SMALL ratchet socket inside (use a wood bock for a spacer) centered beneath the hole, and insert a broken punch with a tapered 'shoulder'. Wack it. Check dimple depth - if not adequate, re-wack it. Perfect and centered every time. Selector lever end will never slip out again. I did some flats early on where the selector lever didn't seem long enough - bent on a home-made $15 jig


Oak block, BFH, and mallet to turn it over. Makes a sound like someone in Appalachia playing a saw. She hears the twang from the kitchen and knows another AK is being born. Got off track here but it might help someone.

Steve in El Paso

Last edited by cntrailrider; 07-02-2006 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Had several beers after getting home and got enjoyably side-tracked
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Old 06-24-2006, 03:53 PM   #31
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I had an idea I'm going to try with the bolt and carrier. What if the bolt was allowed to reciprocate backwards and forwards in the carrier by milling a continuation of the slot the bolt lug rides in on the carrier. If it feeds rounds reliably then this would be the only milling needed on the carrier, and probably a slight reshaping of the bolt lug that rides in the carrier and a small relief cut on the bottom of the bolt where it engages with the carrier. Has anyone tried this? If it works then possibly the action cover won't need any alteration, only a proper placement of the ejector to eject through the standard cutout. What do you guys think?
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Old 06-24-2006, 04:24 PM   #32
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Rodger,
Please send your email address, I have questions, and need some of your parts, and you can put me down for one of the first videos on the build. I mailed you a letter yesterday, excuse the scratching. Just got my computer back, it was blocking pages out. Thanks Andrew Lloyd
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Old 06-24-2006, 06:07 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Lloyd
Rodger,
Please send your email address, I have questions, and need some of your parts, and you can put me down for one of the first videos on the build. I mailed you a letter yesterday, excuse the scratching. Just got my computer back, it was blocking pages out. Thanks Andrew Lloyd
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andrew
you can reach rodger at rodger@lichtenbergresearch.com
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Old 06-24-2006, 08:28 PM   #34
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Topgun -

If the bolt were to slide in the carrier, wouldn't there be a gap (when the bolt's in the forward position) riding over the next round up, and the hammer? I believe it would hang up on the next round and the hammer - but could be missing something

I don't have a milling machine - used a $20 HF hand-held grinder, workbench grinder, dremmel, then some files to clean it up. And it could've looked nicer. Just remove the front half of the cam-rotation area. Bolt head will set beneath the remaining half after you turn the rear shoulder off of it. Even if you use a 7.62 BC and sleeve the bolt, you can reshape the lug on the bottom with grinder and files, so it's narrow enough to slide between the mag lips and push the next round forward. I re-located the cocking handle rearwards, so casings can clear it.

Cocking handle's about 3/16" behind the front of the extractor. Hole in the top is for firing pin removal. That was a bugger to position & drill otherwise it'd be smaller. Ever break a bit installing a new piston?

Made a larger contact area for the buffer

Otherwise you'll need to drill/grind out the rear trunnion for the bolt protruding out the rear of the carrier - which will also chew up the center of every buffer - QUICK. Much easier to just extend the BC and keep your pistol trunnion intact. I didn't at first, and learned. You can see I'm no master welder. But it's strong. Guess that's what grinders are for.

Wasn't ambitous enough to try relocating the ejector spur - thought about it. It might work! But alot of extra work, unless you're bending your own rails. Mine is an untrimmed TAPCO rail. Just the way it came, but hardened. Ejection port has been opened (back) to above the spacer hole/at the rib. Top inside edge is stock. They eject high and about 3:30, steady stream. I shortened the selector so the 'line' would curve up even with the port cut-out just for cosmetics.

You don't need a milling machine for this. A lathe, or else pre-sized sleeves are pretty much required.

Hope that helps

Steve in El Paso

Last edited by cntrailrider; 06-24-2006 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Casings eject about 3:30
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Old 06-24-2006, 09:42 PM   #35
Rodger
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Default Some of you are have trouble with my site

Sorry
We just figured out why some of you can't open the instructions page and other pages at lichtenbergresearch.com. They are in .PDF files which are Adobe Acrobat. Those of you who can't open these pages have two choices. E.mail me (rodger@lichtenbergresearch.com) and I'll send them in word format or you can down load Adobe Acrobat for free at www.adobe.com.

This is a major oversite on our part, sorry.
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