What happens when a FFL dies?

[JustTom]

What happens to a FFL's paper work when he dies?

My bud was a FFL, he passed away recently.

Do all his records go somewhere by law?

I bought a lot of stuff from him in the 80' and 90's.

Am I listed as owner ( from original sale) on long guns purchased from him 30 years ago?

In Michigan, which shouldn't matter for long guns.

Tom

[nalioth]

You're branded for life, I'm afraid.

4473s must be retained for 20 years.

The bound book goes to the feds upon dissolution of the company (for whatever reason)

[JustTom]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Pretty much what I thought......

Those were the days.....
$149 MAK 90's, $99 Norinco SKS's, $400 Garands......

I wish I'd had a crystal ball, I'd be rich. :-)

Tom

[Mandaree36]

Hopefully his bound book and records are still at his place of work.....and get accidentally burned....

[nalioth]

Well, if you live in a free state, you're not really "branded for life".

Cash sales are legal in the free states,and no paperwork is required (other then any dead presidents that may be involved).

[JohnFreeman]

...what happens if his heirs toss them?

Hard to imagine an estate can be held liable for an arrangement they didn't make.

John

[motorhead]

probably not BUT they may want to come by and check in person.

[nalioth]

Originally Posted by Jubinizzle

That matters little, as the 4473s go to the ATF and/or FBI.

What are you talking about?

4473s don't "go to the ATF and/or FBI" by themselves.

When a customer buys a gun from an FFL, they fill out a 4473 (at the least). After they're gone, the FFL has 24h to record the transaction in their bound book.

They must then file the 4473 away for 20 years (after 20 years, they can chunk it).

The bound book is kept "forever".

When the licensee relinquishes his license, the bound book is supposed to go to Washington.


So ol' Gunny Jones passes unexpectedly in his gun shop office, and his heirs have no idea they're supposed to send anything to the government - how the hell can you say the bound book "the 4473s go to the ATF and/or FBI."?

[cazzman]

When they do a background check for the Form 4473, the serial #, make/model, your name, address etc etc is given to the federal government.

This info is in the federal hands before it is even in the bound book and even though the bound book may be lost/stolen/damaged the feds have all your info intact

[nalioth]

Originally Posted by cazzman

When they do a background check for the Form 4473, the serial #, make/model, your name, address etc etc is given to the federal government.

This info is in the federal hands before it is even in the bound book and even though the bound book may be lost/stolen/damaged the feds have all your info intact

Paranoid much, or maybe you live in New York or Cali?

In Texas, the call goes to the Texas Department of Public Safety (not the feds).

My full name is given, and simply "long gun" or "handgun".

If you have a common name, they may ask for birthdate or other info to further identify that you are NOT on the "no sale" list.

[cazzman]

Originally Posted by nalioth

Paranoid much, or maybe you live in New York or Cali?

In Texas, the call goes to the Texas Department of Public Safety (not the feds).

My full name is given, and simply "long gun" or "handgun".

If you have a common name, they may ask for birthdate or other info to further identify that you are NOT on the "no sale" list.

Even in Texas I am sure you go through a background check. Guess who your ffl is talking to? The feds or a proxy for the feds

[nalioth]

So tell me, oh paranoid fellows,

Aside from the 4473, how do "they" know what guns are purchased by holders of CHL/CWP/CPL/whatever-they're-called-in-your-neck-of-the-woods-concealed-carry-licenses?


Paranoia is good, but only to a point . . .


. . . (past that point, they fit you for the jacket with the back'ard sleeves, and book you into the motel with the rubber rooms)

[nalioth]

Originally Posted by Jubinizzle

They don't need to know what guns are purchased by CCW holders, because they already know they have the propensity to defend themselves, and they know that they own guns!

The same could be said if "they" hold just one 4473 you've filled out, especially if you live in Vermont or Alaska (and lately, Arizona).

[cazzman]

Originally Posted by Jubinizzle

Exactly, as soon as you go to the govt. to ask permission to exercise your rights, they know/will always assume that you are armed.

My father and his friends all go to Canada for hunting whitetail. This past year, those that had a NY pistol permit were asked to step aside in a corner room. I guess Canada has strict laws concerning pistols. In the room the border agent asked if any of them had their pistols and then proceeded to search them and their luggage. And these are 60 year old law abiding nice people and for what or why? Just because they are listed as pistol owners and carriers in NY? Yes! An they get away with it

[IPSC]

Ahh... what's the underlying issue here that I'm missing?

If you bought something thru an FFL, you are the purchaser "of-record". Whether the FFL owner died or not, he reported the sale, even when he was still alive and before he (say) went out of business. His "books" are not the one-and-only record of sales. Every sale thru him gets "communicated" immdediately after the sale transaction goes though...sometimes only by phone. Usually within 24 hours of the sale. So "others" know of your purchase right away at the time it was done.

Having a record of sale also doesn't mean you are "Still" the owner. You could have re-sold it to someone else....later....legally....via another transaction. Yeah...paranoia...don't get what the issue is.

Is someone here suggesting that they are fearful that they appear....by name?....on the original transaction?. Ahh..... so what? You made a legal purchase.

[JohnFreeman]

... if a gun store owner dies, and the heirs toss the yellow sheets, the info is gone.


That's he answer.

CCW info is never given. Brady Check never mentions model or S/N...since I have a CCW and it's been a loong time since I've been Brady checked, I forgot that important detail.

John

[JohnFreeman]

Originally Posted by IPSC

Ahh... what's the underlying issue here that I'm missing?

If you bought something thru an FFL, you are the purchaser "of-record". Whether the FFL owner died or not, he reported the sale, .

What you're missing is that the FFL does NOT "report the sale".

John

[nalioth]

Originally Posted by JohnFreeman

... if a gun store owner dies, and the heirs toss the yellow sheets, the info is gone.


That's he answer.

CCW info is never given. Brady Check never mentions model or S/N...since I have a CCW and it's been a loong time since I've been Brady checked, I forgot that important detail.

John

No, that's not "the answer".

The dealer's bound book has all of the same info as the 4473.

[JohnFreeman]

Originally Posted by nalioth

No, that's not "the answer".

The dealer's bound book has all of the same info as the 4473.

Ok you're right... if both get tossed (which must happen more than occasionally) the data is gone.

John