AK flats, bent blanks: legal issues

[ByronF]

1. One is not required to stamp the receiver with a serial number. How would you prove that the number on your trunion is NOT the serial number of your rifle? Imagine that an SAR just happened to have the same number and it just happened to have been used in a crime. Knowhatimsayin? (an SAR has the serial number on the trunion ONLY, no numbers on the stamping).

2. It's my understanding that you've gotta do all the work yourself. Does that mean I can never have any work performed on my AK by anyone but me? I'm thinking rebarrel, repark, stock refinishing, whatever.

3. Will gunsmiths touch my rifle with a ten foot pole? Or will they call the cops on me out of ignorance? Again, the trunion has a number on it so I'd think a smith would simply enter that number into his book. Refer to (1).

4. If I grind the SN off the trunion to avoid confusion will someone feel compelled to throw me in jail for obliterating a serial number?

Just thought this might be interesting talk, and might help to keep me or someone else out of trouble.

Byron

[tk421]

1. An SAR has a number electric penicled onto the receiver.

2. I'm pretty sure that you can farm out some of the work, like bending the flats into shape. Other than that, it cant be too hard to build an AK, right? I havent yet, and dont have the tools to do so anyway, but if a bunch of cave-dwelling cameljockeys can slap them together and make them go bang, how hard can it be?

3. I have no idea. Why worry about a smith anyway? There's most likely someone in your area that has the tooling and equipment to do what you want. Also, maybe you can find a not-so-busy smith. If they keep it less than, what is it, a week (?), they dont have to put it in the book, so no problem there. Might be more than a day though, I'm not sure.

4. Well, I for one wouldnt feel compelled to put you in jail, but theres not much you could do to modify a firearm that I WOULD throw you in jail for. As for everyone else, I got no idea.

[Ought Six]

It is my understanding that if you take a home-fabricated receiver, or a partially finished receiver ("80% receiver"), and marry it to the necessary parts, the rifle is legal for you to own if you do all the work yourself. You can legally own the firearm you built, but you may not transfer ownership of that firearm to anyone (other than a BATFE firearms manufacter's license holder, who must then file the correct forms and stamp a permanent serial # onto the firearm).

If, on the other hand, a gunsmith does the build for you, then that gunsmith:
- must have a BATFE firearms manufacturer's license
- the firearm he builds for you will require a permanent serial #
- he must enter that firearm and its new permanent serial # into his required BATFE build log

One other caveat.... Asking for and following legal advice on the internet is suicially stupid. It is okay to ask just to get an idea of what the law might be, but YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for following the exact letter of the federal firearms statutes. Telling the judge that you "heard on the internet...." will not cut any ice in federal court, and will not save you from a federal felony conviction and a prison sentence. GET COMPETENT PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE BEFORE ACTING !!! I cannot emphasize this enough. If you seriously think that you cannot afford a consultation with a lawyer, but that you can afford to take chances with the BATFE, then you are foolish enough to get what you deserve. Do not expect us to send you cigarette money at Club Fed.

[Ought Six]

bim:
"seems like using the serial number that came on the trunnion, As the serial number for your build, makes perfect sense."

NO !!! NO !!! NO !!! Do not do this!

You do not get to make up your own serial #s, or use one off of another part you put on the rifle. If you do, the BATFE could charge you with falsifying the serial # on a firearm. Regardless of how good your intentions are, you are talking about committing a federal felony here, and possibly spending time in Club Fed.

On firearm builds, only a person with a federal firearms manufacturer's license may assign a legal serial # to a firearm, and it must done within BATFE regs. Do not inscribe any serial # on your receiver - period!

If you really want to inscribe something, you could do someting like:

Homebuilt on 2/13/04, no s/n req'd."

This would at least state how the firearm is in complaince with the US Federal Code. That could be useful if you are ever questioned with your firearm by an LEO.

[justashooter]

"It is my understanding that if you take a home-fabricated receiver, or a partially finished receiver ("80% receiver"), and marry it to the necessary parts, the rifle is legal for you to own if you do all the work yourself. You can legally own the firearm you built, but you may not transfer ownership of that firearm to anyone (other than a BATFE firearms manufacter's license holder, who must then file the correct forms and stamp a permanent serial # onto the firearm)."

talking out your ass on this one, buddy.

i have title 18, and pennsylvania 6100 in front of me, and neither one requires any of this shit. the only way they address the serial number issue is to prohibit the obliteration of an original manufacturer's serial number. there is no requirement that you add a number, or do all of the work yourself. even a smith may do it for you, provided they don't do it as "engaging in business, with the intent of creating an income or making a profit". building one of these with your buddies is as american as apple pie and sally's knickers. there is also no regulation requiring you to mark a gun before transfer. in pennsylvania (where byron and i are) the only time you'd have to mark the gun is when you are leaving it with a smith overnight, or selling it to or thru a dealer, and that only by federal code. you may sell long guns in pennsylvania privately between individuals.

"NO !!! NO !!! NO !!! Do not do this!
You do not get to make up your own serial #s, or use one off of another part you put on the rifle. If you do, the BATFE could charge you with falsifying the serial # on a firearm. Regardless of how good your intentions are, you are talking about committing a federal felony here, and possibly spending time in Club Fed. On firearm builds, only a person with a federal firearms manufacturer's license may assign a legal serial # to a firearm, and it must done within BATFE regs. Do not inscribe any serial # on your receiver - period!"

talking out your ass, again.

byron, you can put the star spangled banner on you gun, if you want, use the serial number on the trunnion, if you like, but i'd maybe mark the last 4 digits of my ssn on the inside in an inconspicuous place, in case of recovery after a burgulary, or some such event, as proof of original ownership. that and a pix of you with the gun and today's newspaper should do it. come on down, and i'll help you park your gun, or beat on a receiver flat, anytime.

O6, you are mixing regs, here. regs that apply to manufacturers are not applicable to home builders, at all.

"If you really want to inscribe something, you could do someting like:
Quote:
Homebuilt on 2/13/04, no s/n req'd."
This would at least state how the firearm is in complaince with the US Federal Code. That could be useful if you are ever questioned with your firearm by an LEO."

big waste of effort. better to get the actual code sections, understand them, and quote them as section numbers. in pennsylvania, it's all in 6100.

double O, get a copy of ATF 5300.5, read it, and then you would know what you were talking about. stop interfering with other people's hobby, and making a fool out of yourself. i interpret code for a living. if you know of some i've left out, maybe you could send it to me.

have a nice day.

[Ought Six]

jas:

"double O"

It is Ought Six. Double Aught is someone else.
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"talking out your ass...."

"talking out your ass, again."

".... and then you would know what you were talking about. stop interfering with other people's hobby, and making a fool out of yourself."

"have a nice day."

LOL! Okay, now that you have conclusively proved you are an asshole, maybe you can put aside the abusive personal attacks, and I will do likewise. I am not looking for a pizzin' match, and you will not get one from me.
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"i have title 18, and pennsylvania 6100 in front of me, and neither one requires any of this shit. the only way they address the serial number issue is to prohibit the obliteration of an original manufacturer's serial number."

The BATFE controls the application of manufacturer's serial #s to firearms. You see, the number on a trunion is a manufacturer's serial #, the same one that was one the receiver of the weapon before it was 'demilled'. You may be confident that the fedgovthugs will not accuse a homebuilder of falsifying a BATFE-controlled manufacturer's serial # on a firearm, or that the federal courts would reject such a charge. I am not.
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"there is no requirement that you add a number...."

Since I never said there was, and advised against adding one, what is your point here ???
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".... or do all of the work yourself. even a smith may do it for you, provided they don't do it as "engaging in business, with the intent of creating an income or making a profit". building one of these with your buddies is as american as apple pie and sally's knickers."

Alright, you are nitpicking my semantics a bit, but granted I could have stated that better. I know people that have done this with the assistance of machinist buddies, and I considered that "doing it yourself".

So to clarify.... You cannot pay a licensed 'smith to have it done and still have a 'homebuilt' weapon, but you can do it as personal project with a 'smith if he is not paid for his firearms build services. I stand corrected.
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"there is also no regulation requiring you to mark a gun before transfer. in pennsylvania (where byron and i are) the only time you'd have to mark the gun is when you are leaving it with a smith overnight, or selling it to or thru a dealer, and that only by federal code. you may sell long guns in pennsylvania privately between individuals."

It was my understanding that once the firearm enters the 'stream of commerce', it is then subject to BATFE regs. That is the sole basis of their regulatory authority. So you seem to be saying (correct me if I misunderstood you) that a sale between private individuals does not enter the weapon into the stream of commerce, thus it still remains outside BATFE regulatory authority. From what you posted, you base this on a reading of Title 18. There is one problem with that; such distinctions are usually a matter of case law, and case law is not in the Federal Codes (unless they are SCotUS decisions). So are you absolutely sure that federal case law supports your contention?
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"i'd maybe mark the last 4 digits of my ssn on the inside in an inconspicuous place, in case of recovery after a burgulary, or some such event, as proof of original ownership."

Good idea. I only suggested inscribing the date of manufacture in case federal law changes in the future, and homebuilds are banned. Since ex post facto laws are supposed to be illegal, they would have to 'grandfather' existing homebuilds (as they did with 'assault weapons'), and that is the potential value of a date-of-manufacture inscription.
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"come on down, and i'll help you park your gun...."

Off-topic question: Are you using the park tanks sold by Double Aught on his website? If so, how are they working for you?

================================================== =============

BF:

Remember what I said in my disclaimer. While our debate here is interesting, you, and only you, will suffer the consequences if you violate the law. If you visit jas and he turns out to be a lawyer knowledgable about federal firearms law, then great. But do not just blindly take legal advice from internet board bozos. Others have made that mistake and paid a very high price. You have no way of knowing who or what is really on the other side of that keyboard. Make sure you are getting professional advice, if you value your freedom.

[justashooter]

tanks by deltaten

[tk421]

As far as the serial # in case of theft, I saw a website where a guy built two AR's using the 80% receivers. Then he etched on the left side of the magwells, the cartoon characters Wren and Stimpy, and put the appropriate name on each AR.

From what I;ve read, you arent required to put ANY kind of number or identifying mark on homebuilds, but the ATF recommends it just in case of theft. My guess is, if the guy I just mentioned ever has his stuff stolen and recovered, there will be NO doubt as to who it belongs to.

[Ought Six]

Excerpt from the FAQ page on the BATFE webiste

Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?


With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.

However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]

[justashooter]

hey double O, do i have to come here everyday and correct your misleading statements? i have too many other things to do, and will only take the time to admonish you incidentally. go to law school, or somewhere else to learn how to interpret code. i'm certified to interpret asme, asnt, aws, and cnsb. it's all the same in principle. learn the principles before you apply codes out of context.

i am imagining your bold/italic text in the above reference to the ATF link is intended to discourage anyone from selling their homebuilt gun. if that is the case, you should know that the title 18 code defines liscencee in several sections as "an individual engaged in the business of manufacturing/selling/gunsmithing with the intent to generate a profit (which is taxable)."

individuals are prohibited from making with the intent to sell because they do not have a liscence (taxing structure) to do so. this is all about making with the intent to sell without a liscense (tax evasion, if you will), not about deciding to sell after the gun is built.

those of us who are building guns just for the fun of it, and selling them whenever we lose interest are in no way violating title 18 by doing so. this kind of hobby work is not covered by the codes you insist on referencing, which are all about value added comercial taxes.

the only things a hobby builder needs to consider are parts count, and pre/post ban. even these are possibly inapplicable, as a homebuilt gun is not part of the title 18 regulable "stream of commerce" by intent, or action, unless you sell it out of state. the title 18 authority is based in legislation enabling regulation of interstate commerce, and a homebuilt gun that never goes interstate sale, is not commerce. parts kits are just parts, and a flat receiver blank, is just sheet metal until byron bends it at my house in april (sent you that handguard US mail today, buddy).

so double O, what are you going to come up with next to try to confuse and inhibit people?

make it good next time. you bore me more than you annoy me.

[Ought Six]

jas:

I asked you for case law, and you merely repeated your unsupported claims. How about a federal case cite or three?

The Ninth Circuit just made a somewhat similar ruling to what you said here about homebuilt firearms that would otherwise be NFA firearms. But think about what that means.... It means that the BATFE has busting people since the 1934 for homebuilt machineguns, suppressors and short-barreled rifles & shotguns for the last seven decades, although these weapons were, by your argument, perfectly legal, outside the stream of commerce and beyond the power of BATFE to regulate. The majority of Americans, who do not live under the Ninth Circuit's jurisdiction, are still subject to being busted for what your argument says they cannot be busted for. I am sure those people in federal prison would be relieved to know that your argument proves them innocent. Having the ironclad guarantee that "jas says you cannot bust me for this" means we can run out and wave it in the BATFE's face, without worry. LOL! The Fifth Circuit also made a similar ruling on homebuilt machinegun a few years ago. Did homebuilt machineguns suddenly become legal then in those southern states? Did BATFE stop busting people for making & possessing them? Were all such previous convictions overturned, and the convicted released from prison?

Also, you talk about licensees when the excerpt from the BATFE website FAQ I posted specifically talks about nonlicensees. Okay, taking your argument that we are not licensees, and therefore Title 18 restrictions are not an issue for us; how can you then say that we must comply with the 18 USC 922(r) restrictions, and we must have the correct foreign parts count in a homebuilt weapon? After all, Title 18 only applies to licensees.... right? And BATFE authority only applies to 'stream of commerce' firearms.... right? And a homebuilt AK is outside the stream of commerce, even when sold within the state, and there are no licensees involved in building or selling that homebuilt.... So which is it ??? Does Title 18 apply to homebuilders, or not? You cannot have it both ways. Again, your own statements and 'logic' are self-contradictory.

You say there are people who "do this all the time". I can assure that the practice of dremeling out the mag well opening on single-stack AKs without worrying about foreign parts count is done all the time, and there have been no arrests.... yet. Does that make it a good idea? Will saying "everyone I know did this all the time!" cut any ice with a federal judge?

I am not interested in your claims of legal expertise, or your juvenile attempts to belittle me. I am only interested in facts, in federal case cites, or even a letter from the BATFE stating it is okay to sell a homebuilt firearm without a serial #; in something that can actually be used to defend one's self in court. So far, all you have done is provided unsupported opinion which you present as 'fact'. "I say so" does not cut it. Neither does "I have gotten away with it lots of times". And just repeating it enough times it does not make it true. If you want to give legal advice here, then back it up. But then, you cannot, can you?

Instant net 'lawyers' like you are a dime a dozen. You set yourself up as a legal expert, but cannot provide any case law or anything else to back up what you say. When challenged, you just turn to personal abuse. I have seen many, many ones like you before. Since you are incapable of providing sound legal support for your claims or even make a consistent, logical case for them, I see no point in wasting any more time on you. Everyone can read this thread, see the points made, and come to their own conclusions.

==============================================

To everyone:

I repeat: do not take legal advice from internet board bozos! Get professional advice. If you are reading up on the law yourself, and do not understand the implications of case law, you are placing yourself in legal jeapordy. There may come a time in America when a new administration that is implacibly hostile to gunowners, especially those owning military-style weapons, and will place us all under a microscope looking for anything whatsoever that they can nail us on. Existing laws can be 'reinterpreted' by the courts, and suddenly something that was thought to be legal is illegal. That is not an ex post facto law, because the law is unchanged, only the court's interpretation has changed. If you think this cannot happen, just talk to any lawyer. That is why I believe we have to err on the side of caution when it comes to federal law, and not listen to self-annointed net 'legal experts'. Remember, the legal consequences of any mistake are all yours.

[justashooter]

double o,

have you ever had problems with risky behaviors, like speeding, illicit sexuality, drunk driving, drugs, shoplifting, and such?
do you have a fascination with fire?
have you ever been involved in firestarting - maybe burning a neighbor's shed, or an abandoned house?
do you feel an urging to be in control of your environment, and uncomfortable when people enact realities different from your own?
do you have conflictual relationships with spousal partners, or in the workplace?
do you often leave or get fired from jobs, marraiges, or relationships?
have you ever had confusion about your identity, careerwise, sexually, or in regard to familial roles or gender?
do you often find yourself in fits of inexplicable rage, or rage at a level innapropriate for the provocation at hand?
do you engage in self mutilative behaviors, like tattooing, body peircing, scratching yourself, or burning yourself with cigarettes?
have you ever threatened to, or even or wanted to kill yourself?
do you find yourself projecting your rage, and provoking others around you to enact it by agressing against them in ways that hide your responsibility for their discomfort or pain, and direct them retributively against others, rather than against you?

talk to me. i really want to know what's hurting inside, what keeps you up at night, troubling your soul. your regrets of missed opportunities, bridges burned, and paths unwalked for fear of where they might lead. i'll be kind to you as you share your deepest, innermost thoughts.

i care. i'll be your friend. i'll be there for you.

[Blag]

Standard disclaimers apply. The internet is not your lawyer. Taking the questions out of order....

4. If I grind the SN off the trunion to avoid confusion will someone feel compelled to throw me in jail for obliterating a serial number?

The law says, "manufacturer's serial number." When you are the manufacturer (the "maker") of a rifle, the "manufacturer's serial number" is whatever number you put on the rifle (if any.) A number that already happens to be on the trunnion is not your "manufacturer's serial number." For you it's only a part number.

Since the pre-existing trunnion number is not your "manufacturer's serial number" you should not get in trouble for removing it if you wish - according to the language of the law.

Note that this would not apply to buying a receiver that has a serial number on it. You would respect that number, in that case.

1. One is not required to stamp the receiver with a serial number. How would you prove that the number on your trunion is NOT the serial number of your rifle? ...

If you're concerned about that, put your own "manufacturer's serial number" on the receiver, clearly and conspicuously. Use a number or marking that you can be sure is a unique identifier. As already mentioned, this is a good idea in case of theft.

You could possibly use the trunnion number as your own "manufacturer's serial number" but that does run the risk that it might not work as a unique identifier. The same number might show up elsewhere. Better to use your own special marking.

2. It's my understanding that you've gotta do all the work yourself. Does that mean I can never have any work performed on my AK by anyone but me? I'm thinking rebarrel, repark, stock refinishing, whatever.

You have to do the manufacture yourself (maybe with a little friendly, unpaid help.) You can't pay to have the rifle made and still have it considered home-built. The rifle, as a rifle, has to be made by you.

"Manufacture" - or "making" - basically means assembly of parts into something that works as a rifle. Function is the important point. It's a rifle if it works as a rifle.

Refinishing is for decoration and maintenance. It isn't manufacture of a rifle; it doesn't have to do with basic function. You should be okay to hire that out.

Rebarreling is iffy. It directly concerns the rifle's function. A barrel is basic to "making." You should probably do that yourself.

Where something is basic to function, do it yourself. Where it's a decorative thing or just a nice touch, you can probably pay to have it done.

3. Will gunsmiths touch my rifle with a ten foot pole? Or will they call the cops on me out of ignorance? Again, the trunion has a number on it so I'd think a smith would simply enter that number into his book. Refer to (1).

Ask the gunsmith what he requires.

On the subject of sale, there's an obvious way to comply with that. If you grow tired of the rifle and don't want it anymore, part it out, sell the parts, and toss the receiver in the recycle bin. There's no sale of any rifle, and you're free and clear. To be certain you're in strict compliance with the law and regulations - "not for sale" - that's the thing to do.

Concerning any actual sale, people could argue forever about how strictly legal that is in various circumstances. It's a broad, gray area.

[Packrat]

The only thing that bothers me, and more kit sellers are pointing it out, is the prohibition against assembling a firearm from parts that is similar to a firearm prohibited from import; semi-automatic non-sporting firearms are mentioned specifically. Many sellers are posting that their kits are for replacement parts only, implying that they are not to be assembled into a rifle. I'd like to see a BATFE "interpretation" of this with respect to not only rifles built on 80% receivers but also on completed receivers.

If that means what it sounds like to me, there's a lot of illegal firearms that have been assembled, and lots of people are preparing to violate the law. They wouldn't have to worry about choking off the import of parts, or the elimination of 922; they'll have shut down a major source of firearms, and created thousands of new criminals. And this is what BATFE is about: not violent criminals, or criminals who intend to harm others, but the criminals who have unwittingly violated a law which is applied by interpretation. BATFE is my choice for the governmental entity I would most like to see disbanded, even more than IRS.

[Ought Six]

P:
"And this is what BATFE is about_: not violent criminals, or criminals who intend to harm others, but the criminals who have unwittingly violated a law which is applied by interpretation. BATFE is my choice for the governmental entity I would most like to see disbanded, even more than IRS."

I hear you! The BATFE needs to go.

If the Ninth Circuit decision on homebuilt machineguns holds, then that would have to apply to all homebuilt weapons, as the legal logic is the same. That would mean that all homebuilt weapons would not be subject to any fedgov regs, including having to have the correct number of foreign parts, 'evil features', etc. That should also apply to homebuilt hi-cap mags, if one had the skills to make reliable and useable mags.

[m03]

>including having to have the correct number of foreign parts


Heh. I wouldn't go around telling people that you have foreign parts in your homemade gun.

[justashooter]

Originally Posted by m03

>including having to have the correct number of foreign parts


Heh. I wouldn't go around telling people that you have foreign parts in your homemade gun.

point well taken, but my name is already on the list of home builders.

i have been buying the tapco combos that come with HTS and flat. the muzzle break and pistol grip are two things i'm gonna replace, anyway. been fun working up some pistol grips out of oak and poplar. the oak finish nicely, with good grain contrast, but the poplar is softer (easier to work), and finishes smoother.

six US parts makes it legal, even if it is sold to another owner, someday (prolly by my estate, although my youngest son may have a few words about that).

[Packrat]

The logic runs like this: the firearms laws are under the unbrella of regulations on interstate commerce. Therefore if the firearm is not in interstate commerce, the regulations do not apply. And that would seem to apply to the home-built firearms. Unless the parts that were assembled into it, having been in interstate commerce, are still regulated. And if not, a rifle built on a completed receiver that is not going to be sold out of state should be legal. But you'd better have a good lawyer and plenty of disposable income, and 10 years with no plans, before you start doing anything.

[Ought Six]

P:

Okay, here is the part I disagree with. The BATFE derives its power of regulation from its taxation power. Firearms are subject to a federal excise tax, and are regulated on that basis. However, federal case law says that only the receiver (or side plate, or whatever part is required to carry the manufacturer's serial #) is legally a firearm. All other firearms parts are not firearms, are not subject to federal taxation, and thus are not subject to regulation by BATFE (except newer hi-cap mags, as per 18 USC 922). This is why parts kits, fire control groups and '80%' receivers can be purchased through the mail, no federal forms required, and BATFE has nothing to say about it. The only way they can go after parts kits is by making bogus legal claims that they can too easily be assembled into complete firearms that are subject to BATFE regulation. So just because a part is sold across state lines does not mean that it comes under BATFE purview.

That being the case, a homebuilt firearm built from a parts kit and a homebuilt or home-finished '80%' receiver is still technically exempt from BATFE regulation.
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"But you'd better have a good lawyer and plenty of disposable income, and 10 years with no plans, before you start doing anything."

Absolutely true. The BATFE has been regulating things it has no constitutional power to regulate for decades. They will arrest you, and try and wear you down in the courts for years while they destroy your life, even when they know they are wrong. They know most people will give up and plead out, and others that 'stick to their guns' will go through years of hell. Either way, it sets an example that the BATFE can use to intimidate lawful gunowners into not engaging in lawful behaviors that the fedgovthugs want stopped. IMO, it is only a matter of time before they start harrassing homebuilders.

[Packrat]

As I said, parts kit vendors are quoting the regulations now, and I just got a flyer from FAC that essentially said "we're selling you this parts kit, but it can only be used by Class II manufacturers, or for building dummy guns, or replacing parts". I've a feeling it's only a matter of time, and they may start going after sales info from before now.

[Nickle]

You all can do as you please. Just let me know which prison you go to after your conviction. Look at BATF's track record, wake up and smell the coffee. Their reg's are available on-line. Download them and read them thoroughly. I've built several firearms, using aftermarket receivers (100% complete) legally. I wouldn't build an AK kit from flats, because you just don't save enough money to justify the headache. Better to find a FFL Dealer that won't gouge you. The guns wholesale are cheap enough. It's just that a lot of Dealers gouge (like selling an excellent condition M91/30 for $ 370.00 at a Gun Show, when wholesale is under $100.00). AK's are different from country to country and gun to gun. These aren't AR-15 clones that are precision manufactured. The receivers have to be done by a competent worker. Ask anybody that's built up a FAL. They're massive headaches to get right, too. But bending up a receiver flat is tricky work. Check out the web-sites of some the Receiver makers. One custom bends the receiver to match what your building for a parts kit. I'm not saying AK's or RomAK's are not good guns, they're just not made uniformly one to the next. So the parts don't always interchange.

Besides, it's easier to stay out of trouble than get out of trouble. I'm not a coward, but I won't risk prison over 50 to 100 Dollars either.

Nickle

[Ought Six]

N:

"You all can do as you please. Just let me know which prison you go to after your conviction."

Since there is legal advice for homebuilders on BATFE's own website (on the FAQ page), I do not think that homebuilding is that much of a risk. The BATFE would look pretty damn stupid in front of a judge claiming that homebuilding is a federal offense when they post on their own website that it is perfectly legal.

As for the rest of what we are talking about, it is a discussion about the possible changes in present law wrought by recent court decisions. Some brave soul who knows the risk, or some foolhardy person who does not will become a test case in federal court sooner or later, and then the matter will hopefully be settled. I do not see how the BATFE can claim any jurisdiction whatsoever over any homebuilt firearm, but as you can see in my posts above, I agree with you that great caution is called for and no one should trust the fedgovthugs to obey the law.
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"I wouldn't build an AK kit from flats, because you just don't save enough money to justify the headache."

Saving a ton of cash is not the point. The pride and satisfaction of building your own AK, the ability to configure it exactly as you want it, as well as the fact that it creates an 'assault weapon' that is not in any government database anywhere are the attractions for most folks.

[justashooter]

all about having a good time doing something with the hands. used to be an aircraft mechanic, then i was an industrial fabricator, now they won't let me do anything more than talk about the work. tried clockmaking, but it just wasn't much fun. building ak's is.

double o, thanks for coming over on this one.

[Ought Six]

jas:

"Coming over" ??? I have not changed my mind on anything. I never said that no one should homebuild. I would like to try it myself, when I get a little spare cash and some more tools. We just disagreed on whether it was safe and legal to sell a homebuild.

[Blag]

Originally Posted by Ought Six

P:

Okay, here is the part I disagree with. The BATFE derives its power of regulation from its taxation power. Firearms are subject to a federal excise tax, and are regulated on that basis. However, federal case law says that only the receiver (or side plate, or whatever part is required to carry the manufacturer's serial #) is legally a firearm. ...

I don’t know about case law, but that isn’t quite what the statute law always says. Here’s the excise tax statute on “RECREATIONAL EQUIPMENT” firearms in general. These are “sporting purpose” firearms, as opposed to machine guns, etc.

=============================
* United States Code

* TITLE 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

* SUBTITLE D - MISCELLANEOUS EXCISE TAXES

* CHAPTER 32 - MANUFACTURERS EXCISE TAXES

* SUBCHAPTER D - RECREATIONAL EQUIPMENT

* PART III - FIREARMS
------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Code as of: 01/22/02
Section 4181. Imposition of tax

There is hereby imposed upon the sale by the manufacturer,
producer, or importer of the following articles a tax equivalent to
the specified percent of the price for which so sold:
Articles taxable at 10 percent -
Pistols.
Revolvers.
Articles taxable at 11 percent -
Firearms (other than pistols and revolvers).
Shells, and cartridges.

=============================

The law is not using “firearm” here to mean receiver - I believe! It’s a different definition. They’re calling the whole thing a “firearm” for tax purposes. I do not find special definitions for this section, but a revolver is a “whole thing” firearm, and so is a pistol. It would follow that other firearms would mean the whole rifle or shotgun, for this section of the tax law. Looks like “whole thing” to me.

And notice the tax is on sales by the manufacturer, etc. It is not a tax on making, it’s a percentage sales tax.

If you make a (whole) firearm yourself, and keep it, there is no sale by the maker (you) and there is no tax. But if you sell a rifle you made, that would be a sale by the manufacturer and the tax would be due, it appears. 11% for rifles.

If you sell a rifle you’ve made and don’t collect the tax, and pay the tax to the government, you are probably in violation of this law. There are some exceptions to the law, but I don’t find one for homebuilders.

The government takes tax collection pretty seriously, so be aware of this possibility. If government officials see home building becoming a widespread activity they might start taking a close look for sales, under the tax law.

I can’t give formal legal advice, but well, there it is, as written.

Again, for emphasis, the tax is on sales, not manufacture itself. Make a “recreational equipment” firearm for yourself, and never sell it, and you’re clear of any tax liability under this law.

It looks as tho you could give a homebuilt rifle to somebody, a “sale” for $0, okay. The tax on $0 is $0 and there’s no tax amount due.

And if you sell a rifle for a few dollars, as a practical matter it’s unlikely they’ll go after you for a dollar or two of sales tax. But they could if they wanted to give somebody a hard time.

Taxes, taxes, and more damn taxes. Be careful out there.

[Ought Six]

B:

I guess I was not perfectly clear. When you have a fully-assembled firearm that includes the controlled part (receiver, side plate or whatever), that weapon is legally a firearm and subject to regulation. But any firearms parts, even if you sell all the parts together except the controlled part (like a parts kit), are not a firearm. The controlled part alone (receiver or whatever), if sold seperately, is still legally considered a firearm. These rules are contained in the Code of Federal Regulations, 27 CFR 478.11:

Code of Federal Regulations

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS
- CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
-- PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION
--- Subpart B--Definitions
---- Sec. 478.11 Meaning of terms.

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is
designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the
action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any
firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the
term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed
collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.

( LINK )

In every case, the receiver (or whatever part has the manufacturer's serial # on it) is the only legally critical part. Without that part, you legally have no firearm.

[Blag]

Originally Posted by Ought Six

B:
... When you have a fully-assembled firearm that includes the controlled part (receiver, side plate or whatever), that weapon is legally a firearm and subject to regulation. But if you sell all the parts together except the controlled part (like a parts kit), it is not a firearm. The controlled part alone (receiver or whatever), if sold seperately, is still legally considered a firearm. ...

Agreed.

And it may be that once you've personally made the AK receiver, itself, you have then made the "firearm." In that case you could hire out all the other work, including barreling. The person who did that work would not be "making" the rifle, it would be already "made" when you made the receiver.

A more detailed, unambiguous statement from BATF on this issue is long overdue.

[Ought Six]

That gets into that sticky issue of manufacturing and homebuilding. If your gunsmith takes a receiver & parts kit and assembles it into a firearm, he has legally 'manufactured' a firearm, and had best have a BATFE firearms manufacturer's license. But if he puts a barrel and receiver together, is that 'manufacturing'? No one knows for sure. As you said, the BATFE needs to clearly define things like this. But then....

"Did you think we want those laws observed? We want them broken. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power the government has is to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can be neither observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - then you cash in on the guilt."
-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged --

[Nickle]

Don't misunderstand me y'all. IF you're building a gun for the fun and satisfaction of doing it, I'm all for you. My point is to be very careful of the BATF.

As Ought six said: "The BATFE would look pretty damn stupid in front of a judge claiming that homebuilding is a federal offense when they post on their own website that it is perfectly legal."

I'll tell you that if they do, it won't be the first time. As I understand InterOrdnance's current situation, the BATF told them the Parts Kits were OK, then changed their mind. The BATF has a long track record of "flaky" cases that are hard to prove in court. So make sure you're 100% legal when you make the gun. I'd recommend contacting a BATF Field Office to verify what you're making is legal, and get confirmation in Print, preferably with a signature from them. I've dealt with them before and had good luck getting cooperation, though it can be hard getting them to make a statement.

If you do build the gun, make sure you keep it for a signicant time before you sell it. Otherwise, you are leaving yourself open to being charged with manufacturing and dealing without a FFL. I don't want to appear to be negative, but the penalties are so severe that I would be remiss if I didn't warn you. So you understand my background, I'm an ex-FFL Dealer and I grew up in my father's Gun Shop. He's also a Licensed Ammo Manufacturer and I still help him Part-Time, mostly at Gun Shows.

Anyways, I wish you success with your project, just don't forget your "homework".

[Ought Six]

The BATFE will not give you a legal opinion, signed or otherwise. They say so right on their website.

The issues here do not involve collecting a few dollar's worth of tax. The fedgovthugs are motivated by making cases. That is the career path in such agencies. If they can make a felony bust on some hapless unknowing gunowning citizen, it ups their conviction count and improves their chance for promotion and/or a better assignment. It may mean moving up a GS grade, a salary increase, and maybe moving from the Billings, Montana office to Miami, Florida, where high-profile career-making cases, great weather and the hot nightlife are. For a young agent, they have plenty of motivation to screw you over. Never forget it.

[tk421]

Damn, I'd kill to be posted at the Billings, MT office! And there's not a single honest Montanan that'd have anything to worry about, either. Flash suppressor? Go right ahead! Folding stock? Be my guest. I didnt see anything.

You can keep Miami.

Wonder how I can get a job with ATF and get posted at their MT office?

[Nickle]

Originally Posted by Ought Six

The BATFE will not give you a legal opinion, signed or otherwise. They say so right on their website.

Well they did for me when I built my AR-15 clone and had to alter my pre-ban upper to be legal. They did tell me what the definition of "permanently attached" is. But, it took some work to get to the correct people there, though. None of the "small fry" wanted to say anything other than "I don't know".

And I damn sure don't trust them any more than ought six does, either.

[bouncer50]

I asked a few statetopper that i know about a home build firearm with no serial numbers. I wanted to know if i for example got stop for speeding and they found a AK-47 in my car without a serial number what would happen. Both of them said they would take the gun. They would send it down state to the firearm lab.To see if the serial number were removed. Went i told them it was legal to build a homemade firearm. They both said they never hear of that before. Kind of made me think of the hassle you might get from a LEO about a homebuild firearm. Myself i going to stamp some numbers on mine.

[runnin an gunnin]

Manufacturer's are required to mark their firearms with serial numbers.

Civilian home-builds for personal usage and not for resale are not. STRONGLY encouraged as an identifying mark .. but not legally necessary.

As far as local LE .. the sky is the limit for their stupidity of federal law. I don't sweat the locals .. you can have their ass handed to you on a platter if they violate your civil rights. And to seize a gun w/o obvious reason (ie. grinding marks, confession of illegal full-auto, stolen property) is asking for a lawsuit.

I have been hassled many a time over "complaints of full-auto fire". I have told all of the PD that has investigated that the guns are perfectly legal, offered them to see a copy of my paperwork and then hand them a loaded mag along with the gun and tell them to shoot it!

Selling your home-built is not illegal. Just don't build to sell. That is manufacturing and dealing for profit without a license. There is NO law that prohibits one from selling his home built gun if he needs cash, bored, doesn't like it anymore, etc. Key is sale for profit.

My .02
Free internet opinion

[Packrat]

Especially if you have a kit with matching numbers, the LEO isn't going to know. There's the number right there on the receiver (the trunion, stupid! you don't say) and it matches the one on the bolt carrier (if he knows enough to look for that). Only if he knows that it's supposed to have the importer's mark on it are you going to get in trouble. Look at your commercial Kalashnikovs: see how many have a number on the receiver.