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Old 02-04-2012, 10:05 PM   #1
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Default Full auto "sear"

What exactly does the "auto sear" do and how does it function? Pictures, videos, diagrams, etc, would be extremely helpful.

No need to post talking about laws and such, it is perfectly legal to be knowledgable in any field.

Thanks
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Old 02-04-2012, 10:50 PM   #2
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In guns like the AR15 (Only gun I have autos of, as I'm still waiting for my AK to transfer), it basically holds the hammer back for just enough time, so that the bolt has time to fully seat the chamber before it is dropped again. If it wasn't for this, the hammer would just ride the bolt home in full auto , and that's not always safe.

Basically, you pull the trigger. Gun goes boom. The boom is the bullet firing of course, and the energy from that pushes the bolt back ejecting the spent casing, and also re-cocking the hammer on the auto sear (Instead of on the standard disconnector which is used during semi auto firing). As the bolt then goes forward, JUST before it fully closes, it "trips" the auto sear which has been holding the hammer back, therefore releasing it. With everything timed nicely, the hammer should then contact the back of the bolt at the perfect time to fire the round right after it became fully seated. With some guns you can actually play with the timing some or with buffers weights some as well to increase or decrease the rate of fire.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:11 PM   #3
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXL-bF_2YHw
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:18 PM   #4
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bfgmovies,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:56 AM   #5
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no problem! Now I either need
1) a fully transferable AK-47 or
2) I Need my SOT 2 or
3) I need the Apocalypse to happen to put this knowledge to work xD

Now a couple things people don't realize, The bolt on a full auto AK has a slot cut in it to allow it to trip the auto-sear, and the receiver has to be stepped down to allow usage of the bolt. AKs manufactured by most commercial entities (like Century arms) mills these parts down for semi auto use only. Also, the disconector on a full auto AK has a tail on it to let the selector level hold the disconector down while in full auto mode, that way only the auto sear can hold the hammer down and will be tripped by the bolt. Semi auto AKs do not have that tail on the disconector.

those are some of the main differences between the full auto and semi auto AKs today in the US
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:08 PM   #6
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Ive torn down a couple dozen AKs and they all had the "tail" on the carrier. Ive heard that some companies removed them, but the first time I saw that in real life is on my Mitchell Arms M70/M90. Ive already swapped in a virgin carrier to be more authentic
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:01 PM   #7
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Seen this one?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OMIIC_MIxMA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Mmnnkay, if it doesn't work click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auditech10 View Post
Ive torn down a couple dozen AKs and they all had the "tail" on the carrier. Ive heard that some companies removed them, but the first time I saw that in real life is on my Mitchell Arms M70/M90. Ive already swapped in a virgin carrier to be more authentic
tail on the carrier or do you mean on the disconnector? The carrier needs a slot in it for full auto. many builders don't even bother milling them out. There's nothing in a semi build that can cause it to become full auto with that cut in the carrier. Some people who want to be extra careful will and commercial manufactures will mill them out. Having the tail on the disconector is a different matter though, because if the selector level holds that down it's possible that it will double over and fire two or more rounds with a single pull of the trigger even without the auto sear. I've also heard you can be caught for constructive intent if you have the slot cut in your lower rails. But drilling the evil third hole in the receiver will always be considered manufacturing a full auto nfa firearm.
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Old 07-04-2012, 05:17 PM   #9
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The carrier has a "hump" for lack of a better term that point downward and engages the tip of the auto sear. The right side bolt guid rail has a slot cut in it to allow the tip of the auto sear to protrude thru so that the carrier "hump" can contact it.

I have seen many commercially made aks that have the hump milled off, always figured this was for legality purposes as the hump by itself cannot and does not do anything.

having a slotted bolt guide rail is a gray area, but best not to have. And as mentioned any FA trigger component or the "evil 3rd hole" is a definate no-no.

What I find interesting is that by removing the auto sear in order to make the gun legal, on of the designed in saftey features has been removed. With the auto (or saftey sear as it has been called) sear in use there is almost no chance of the gun being able to fire out of battery, since the sear is only tripped as the bolt goes into battery. Just an observation I made a while back.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfgmovies View Post
The carrier needs a slot in it for full auto. many builders don't even bother milling them out.
That's a new one to me.....

I am not aware of any "slot" being utilized on an AK carrier that has anything to do with FA fire. There is a "tail" on the right rear side of the carrier that is needed to trip the sear. This is sometime milled off to prevent the carrier from being able to trip a sear. With the exception of the "tail", FA and SA carriers are the same, AFAIK.

Please elaborate......I might learn something new!!
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:25 AM   #11
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Where do I find the legal definitions for what is legal and not to convert a rifle to automatic?
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Team SURPAT View Post
Where do I find the legal definitions for what is legal and not to convert a rifle to automatic?
As soon as you drill a hole for the auto sear axis pin, the AK is worth 10 years in prison. That's it. The semi-auto receiver will not accept full auto parts. Possession of full auto parts is legal.

To convert you need a full auto bolt, a rail cut in the receiver, a precisely drilled hole in the receiver for the axis pin, a jig to drill the hole and an auto sear or better yet full auto trigger group. There is no legal way to convert. The registry was closed in 1986.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:24 AM   #13
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There is no legal way to convert. The registry was closed in 1986.
For transferable Class III weapons to the general public... they still can make Post 86 dealer sample guns or for LEO & the Military.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by mboylan View Post
As soon as you drill a hole for the auto sear axis pin, the AK is worth 10 years in prison. That's it. The semi-auto receiver will not accept full auto parts. Possession of full auto parts is legal.

To convert you need a full auto bolt, a rail cut in the receiver, a precisely drilled hole in the receiver for the axis pin, a jig to drill the hole and an auto sear or better yet full auto trigger group. There is no legal way to convert. The registry was closed in 1986.
True ...... 10 years in club fed if you do something crazy like that
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboylan View Post
As soon as you drill a hole for the auto sear axis pin, the AK is worth 10 years in prison. That's it. The semi-auto receiver will not accept full auto parts. Possession of full auto parts is legal.

To convert you need a full auto bolt, a rail cut in the receiver, a precisely drilled hole in the receiver for the axis pin, a jig to drill the hole and an auto sear or better yet full auto trigger group. There is no legal way to convert. The registry was closed in 1986.
I know the legal mumbo jumbo in general, what I need is the word for word definition from the BATFaggots.
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:53 PM   #16
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I know the legal mumbo jumbo in general, what I need is the word for word definition from the BATFaggots.
Why? Any "definition" you get from that source will almost certainly be reversed, as the political climate changes.

Best stick with the actual law.
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:55 PM   #17
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Give me a link or something...
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:46 PM   #18
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Receiver doesn't need a slot milled, the bolt guide rail needs a simple notch milled into it on the right side of the receiver. The way the auto sear works is it impinges on a flat spot on the hammer and keeps it held back with every shot, semi OR full. The top of the auto sear pokes through the small slot in the bolt rail.

When the bolt closes the small "tail" on the carrier will hit the auto sear when it's about 3mm from being fully forward. The bolt is completely locked at this point and it is safe to fire the cartridge even if the carrier is not completely forward. By hitting the sear it levers it forward, causing the connection between sear and hammer to release. The hammer falls and discharges the round.

The auto sear trips the hammer every shot whether in semi or full auto. The difference is the disconnector within the trigger; in full auto the selector is holding it back so it doesn't ever catch the hammer, while in semi auto it will catch the hammer once the auto sear disengages.

It's pretty simple when you have it in your hands to examine. I believe there are some YT videos that break it down. I doubt the placement of the sear hole would need to be very precise because theoretically you could "tune" the sear to release the hammer based on carrier position when it trips. Putting in the sear accurately would obviously be preferable.

Transferable AKs are available but have deep pockets. An 02/07 FFL/SOT is definitely cheaper!
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:00 PM   #19
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Does a rate reducer on your triggergroup qualify as constructive intent?
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:38 AM   #20
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surpat,

The AK has gone thru a few design changes over the years as to HOW the FA feature works. Suffice to say, and it's been a while, to install a "rate reducer", you need the infamous "3rd" hole in the receiver.

I took a good look at parts and kits I picked up over the years, 1989 to now, and saw the basic design activated by the bolt carrier slot NOT utilizing a "slot" cut in the right side rails. The design using milled slots in the acrrier were often mentioned containing a "rate reducer", critical piece to success.

Dabble here, have fun, but please be careful.... I've seen a "converted" gun... Came into the "office"(no not some "fawked up" fed variety office, damn the Feds and their evil ways, those who know me know what I'm talking about) one nite. Boy didn't know who he sold it to... He still mite not.... But his days are numbered... I'd like to think he was sewing his civil disobediance in another way, but no, he was "distributing"... If you get my jest...

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Old 07-21-2012, 11:10 AM   #21
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Well now,

Come to think of it, the rate reducer mite slide on one of the other 2 existing pins. But, a rate reducer serves only one function.... Constructive intent <vs> "Original Look" could come to mind... Never trust the feds....

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Old 07-24-2012, 12:11 PM   #22
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The "rate reducer" is more of an anti-bounce/vibration device intended to prevent the hammer from falling too early; a reduction in rate of fire is simply a side effect. It is a part of the trigger group and rides on that axis pin so no, you wouldn't need the illegal hole to install it. The only thing that goes on the auto sear pin is the auto sear and it's spring.

I completely agree about not trusting the Feds with respect to constructive intent, though as it doesn't contribute to auto fire in any way I couldn't imagine having the hammer retarder ("rate reducer") installed in a semi auto AK would be illegal.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:25 PM   #23
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Correct, the rate reducer assembly is installed along with the disconnector and single hook trigger on the trigger access pin.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:51 PM   #24
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Never trust the feds,

That's all I'll say.... Ain't worth the nut roll with those hose heads...

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Old 07-24-2012, 06:20 PM   #25
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There are at least two designs of rate reduces. One has a single loop around the trigger axis pin and the other has a double loop around the trigger axis pin. One reduces the rate of fire only by about 40 rounds a minute. The other usually reduces the rate of fire from a no rate reducer AK by about 80 round a minute of more. One design may be for the AKM / RPK and the other may be for the AK-74 / RPK-74. One may have a larger loop for the AK-74 trigger axis pin sleece.

Late production Romanian AK's have a stamped sheet metal auto sear instead of a forged and milled one. The stamped one is barely thick enough to work in some rifles and won't work in others, but it does show what can be done with a bit of properly heat treated sheet metal.

The 7.62x51 Galil has the auto sear pivot on the hammer axis pin and doesn't have a third axis pin due to the location of the larger magazine. Other 7.62x51 AK based rifles have the trigger and magazine in the normal AK positions and do have a third axis pin for the auto sear.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzertruppe View Post
surpat,

The AK has gone thru a few design changes over the years as to HOW the FA feature works. Suffice to say, and it's been a while, to install a "rate reducer", you need the infamous "3rd" hole in the receiver.

I took a good look at parts and kits I picked up over the years, 1989 to now, and saw the basic design activated by the bolt carrier slot NOT utilizing a "slot" cut in the right side rails. The design using milled slots in the acrrier were often mentioned containing a "rate reducer", critical piece to success.

panzertruppe
That's some pretty amazing info. Please tell us more.......got pics? Maybe a link to what you're talking about?
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:21 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panzertruppe View Post
surpat,

The AK has gone thru a few design changes over the years as to HOW the FA feature works. Suffice to say, and it's been a while, to install a "rate reducer", you need the infamous "3rd" hole in the receiver.

I took a good look at parts and kits I picked up over the years, 1989 to now, and saw the basic design activated by the bolt carrier slot NOT utilizing a "slot" cut in the right side rails. The design using milled slots in the acrrier were often mentioned containing a "rate reducer", critical piece to success.

Dabble here, have fun, but please be careful.... I've seen a "converted" gun... Came into the "office"(no not some "fawked up" fed variety office, damn the Feds and their evil ways, those who know me know what I'm talking about) one nite. Boy didn't know who he sold it to... He still mite not.... But his days are numbered... I'd like to think he was sewing his civil disobediance in another way, but no, he was "distributing"... If you get my jest...

panzertruppe
Just for clarity, this is the "Rate reducer" I am talking about. https://www.apexgunparts.com/product...oducts_id/1959
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Old 07-27-2012, 02:21 AM   #28
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Not sure how a 1960s video on the M-16 is useful to this discussion. I found this a lot more helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKhpy7NNQgc
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by collegeboy View Post
In guns like the AR15 (Only gun I have autos of, as I'm still waiting for my AK to transfer), it basically holds the hammer back for just enough time, so that the bolt has time to fully seat the chamber before it is dropped again. If it wasn't for this, the hammer would just ride the bolt home in full auto , and that's not always safe.

Basically, you pull the trigger. Gun goes boom. The boom is the bullet firing of course, and the energy from that pushes the bolt back ejecting the spent casing, and also re-cocking the hammer on the auto sear (Instead of on the standard disconnector which is used during semi auto firing). As the bolt then goes forward, JUST before it fully closes, it "trips" the auto sear which has been holding the hammer back, therefore releasing it. With everything timed nicely, the hammer should then contact the back of the bolt at the perfect time to fire the round right after it became fully seated. With some guns you can actually play with the timing some or with buffers weights some as well to increase or decrease the rate of fire.

I am beyond confused here. Not about FA operation, I have a pretty good idea how sears work but rather your screen name. You're a "college boy" and yet you own a transferable M16 and are now waiting on an AK to transfer?!?!? By my math, that's atleast 24G worth the autos. Damn dude, you're doing better than 99% of the college age forumites I've heard from, half of them have trouble shelling out bucks for expensive knives. Hell, you're doing a lot better than I am and I'm no college kid, I only own one little FA and it's neither an M16 or an AK.

Congrats tho, that's seriously fuckin kule I would love to have BOTH a M16 and a real AK.
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