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Old 12-15-2015, 10:49 PM   #1
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Default IMPORTANT: NEW SELLERS READ THIS NOW

There have been a number of hit-and-run sellers on the board lately advertising goods, taking money, then disappearing. If you have references outside this board, it would be helpful to post or otherwise provide them as many members are hesitant to deal with new sellers without references or feedback.

DO NOT ask our members to send PayPal Gift which offers NO protection for the buyer if you fail to deliver the product(s) they paid for. Members be aware, that you will not get your money back if a seller does not deliver product if you pay with PayPal gift.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:58 PM   #2
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:29 AM   #3
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So you're asking everyone to NOT use PayPal gift, period? So , my items need to be priced differently? And the buyer needs to pay 4% more? And PayPal gets that 4% on a purchase they don't allow? So, what if I buy something, pay that extra 4% , something goes wrong . Seller screws me, I call up PayPal and they say they don't allow gun related business to be conducted and tell me to kick rocks and suspend both accounts.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:36 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SocomM4 View Post
So you're asking everyone to NOT use PayPal gift, period? So , my items need to be priced differently? And the buyer needs to pay 4% more? And PayPal gets that 4% on a purchase they don't allow? So, what if I buy something, pay that extra 4% , something goes wrong . Seller screws me, I call up PayPal and they say they don't allow gun related business to be conducted and tell me to kick rocks and suspend both accounts.
Jen is just giving a public service announcement on the matter. If you hate PayPal so much then why do you use it? Hypocrite...
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:00 AM   #5
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Her point is paypal gift offers you no protection. Ultimately it's up to the buyer to make the decision on weather or not he will send money as a paypal gift. If that's all the seller provides then the ball is in the buyers court.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:25 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by SocomM4 View Post
So you're asking everyone to NOT use PayPal gift, period? So , my items need to be priced differently? And the buyer needs to pay 4% more? And PayPal gets that 4% on a purchase they don't allow? So, what if I buy something, pay that extra 4% , something goes wrong . Seller screws me, I call up PayPal and they say they don't allow gun related business to be conducted and tell me to kick rocks and suspend both accounts.
Lets see if I've got this straight.

A dishonest seller encourages the buyer to lie about the nature of a transaction, to cheat Paypal out of their fee for a voluntary service (theft of service).

The dishonest buyer agrees. And then whines when they "discover" the seller is just as dishonest with them as they were with Paypal.

Both parties are liars, cheats, and thieves - both for using Paypal and disguising the prohibited transaction, and also for lying about the nature of the transaction (gift, when it is a merchandise purchase).

Both liars and cheats should be banned from AK Files. We don't need that kind of scum here. Anyone who lies to and cheats one, will do it to another - eventually.

Paypal is also a dishonest company, full of liars and thieves, against which the consumer has no recourse - but that's a separate issue. They are not advertising here.

Convenience comes at a price.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:59 AM   #7
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Just a few points on this.
1st - If paypal won't help you and your account is attached to your credit or debit card, address the issue with your financial institution. They will refund your money and go after paypal.
2nd - Paypal will allow the purchase of forearm 'related' items as long as it is through goods & services. Buying gun parts off ebay is proof of this. They know what you're buying and don't care as long as they get their 4%.
3rd - Maybe some sort of 'time in good standing' requirement before you can create a thread in the MP. There are other respected forums that follow this meathod and it seems to work for them.
I've only been had once in the time I've been on AK specific forums. Even then the other party didn't run off with anything, I just didn't do my job in checking out the trade item and ended up with much lower quality guns than what I traded for them. Honestly, I've been screwed over by legit vendors MANY more times than forum members...
Just my 2 cents...
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Lets see if I've got this straight.

A dishonest seller encourages the buyer to lie about the nature of a transaction, to cheat Paypal out of their fee for a voluntary service (theft of service).

The dishonest buyer agrees. And then whines when they "discover" the seller is just as dishonest with them as they were with Paypal.

Both parties are liars, cheats, and thieves - both for using Paypal and disguising the prohibited transaction, and also for lying about the nature of the transaction (gift, when it is a merchandise purchase).

Both liars and cheats should be banned from AK Files. We don't need that kind of scum here. Anyone who lies to and cheats one, will do it to another - eventually.

Paypal is also a dishonest company, full of liars and thieves, against which the consumer has no recourse - but that's a separate issue. They are not advertising here.

Convenience comes at a price.
You do realize that PayPal still gets their money when the "Gift" transaction is used, don't you? Because your post reads like PayPal gets stiffed on these transactions. In the real world, the fee is assessed to the "gifter" instead of the receiver. So I buy something from you and we use PP Gift. I pay you plus whatever fee to PP, rather than them skimming off the top of the seller's deposit. PP isn't being cheated in any way other than they don't know what's being bought and sold that way. They freeze accounts for firearm related purchases, which are not allowed through their service.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:20 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by RigPig View Post
You do realize that PayPal still gets their money when the "Gift" transaction is used, don't you? Because your post reads like PayPal gets stiffed on these transactions. In the real world, the fee is assessed to the "gifter" instead of the receiver. So I buy something from you and we use PP Gift. I pay you plus whatever fee to PP, rather than them skimming off the top of the seller's deposit. PP isn't being cheated in any way other than they don't know what's being bought and sold that way. They freeze accounts for firearm related purchases, which are not allowed through their service.
If I send somebody $50 using paypal gift, the recipient receives $50 and my account is debited $50. No fee is taken from the sender or recipient.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:22 AM   #10
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You do realize that PayPal still gets their money when the "Gift" transaction is used, don't you? Because your post reads like PayPal gets stiffed on these transactions. In the real world, the fee is assessed to the "gifter" instead of the receiver. So I buy something from you and we use PP Gift. I pay you plus whatever fee to PP, rather than them skimming off the top of the seller's deposit. PP isn't being cheated in any way other than they don't know what's being bought and sold that way. They freeze accounts for firearm related purchases, which are not allowed through their service.
Bullshit. If I gift $50 to you, $50 is taken from my account and given to you. PP get's ZERO from that transaction.

The bottom line is, if you use PP gift for purchases, you are no better than a common thief. You can rationalize it all you'd like, but you are only lying to yourself.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:27 AM   #11
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I like the 4 percent. I pay it gladly knowing my ass is a little bit covered.
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Old 12-16-2015, 11:43 AM   #12
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Everyone should know that buying something from a low post seller with no feedback is taking a risk. The risk may be worth it depending on what you're trying to buy but I always make sure to use a cc and and pay the paypal fee so I'm covered. Established sellers with high feedback, I usually do pp gift.

Isn't this why we have the caveat emptor in the MP rules for.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RigPig View Post
You do realize that PayPal still gets their money when the "Gift" transaction is used, don't you? Because your post reads like PayPal gets stiffed on these transactions. In the real world, the fee is assessed to the "gifter" instead of the receiver. So I buy something from you and we use PP Gift. I pay you plus whatever fee to PP, rather than them skimming off the top of the seller's deposit. PP isn't being cheated in any way other than they don't know what's being bought and sold that way. They freeze accounts for firearm related purchases, which are not allowed through their service.
Unless you write something like "Baby Blaster 3000 ( Giblet Edition )" into the "notes" field, Paypal doesn't know what you've bought, no matter how you send the funds.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:49 PM   #14
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I like the 4 percent. I pay it gladly knowing my ass is a little bit covered.
VERY little covered, unfortunately.

I think Jen is asking only new sellers to not ask buyers to use the Paypal gift option when paying for their merchandise?
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:54 PM   #15
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People who want to use PayPal - fine with me. I will add the 3.5% if they don't. Let's keep it legit. Everything that I normally sell is okay per PayPal policy. I would not appreciate any customer comments such as "parts for AK47 killing machine" or something goofy like that.

If I sell something that is (PayPal) prohibited, say a pair of 30-rounders then it is best to have someone send me a cheque or money order. Yes, they have to trust me. Someday I may take creditcards - I'm just not there yet.

I do agree that a new seller should show some references to other accounts such as eBay, Gunbroker, etc. for the peace of mind of everyone. I know - I was once new here myself and a few people were willing to take a chance. Glad they did!
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Old 12-16-2015, 02:12 PM   #16
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I agree with Jen. Good message.

I have dealt with a few learning disabled on here and not all were new to the board. I like the term "reading comprehension" as well. Also, as GP has stated before when you buy something, you are bound to follow through (unless extreme circumstances) not latent pay, my dog is sick, or cat ate the MO.

PayPal is anti gun and anti second amendment, they have a policy that states it. To me it seems odd that gun culture would use their services.
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Old 12-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Lets see if I've got this straight.

A dishonest seller encourages the buyer to lie about the nature of a transaction, to cheat Paypal out of their fee for a voluntary service (theft of service).

The dishonest buyer agrees. And then whines when they "discover" the seller is just as dishonest with them as they were with Paypal.

Both parties are liars, cheats, and thieves - both for using Paypal and disguising the prohibited transaction, and also for lying about the nature of the transaction (gift, when it is a merchandise purchase).

Both liars and cheats should be banned from AK Files. We don't need that kind of scum here. Anyone who lies to and cheats one, will do it to another - eventually.

Paypal is also a dishonest company, full of liars and thieves, against which the consumer has no recourse - but that's a separate issue. They are not advertising here.

Convenience comes at a price.
Word.



PS, ... I used PayPal to sell Firearms and FAL parts kits years ago and even listed and sold them on eBay, before Mark Powell (FWRA) insisted I join The FAL Files as a vendor and not just be a 'lurker'. This was LONG before PayPal or eBay had a users agreement that was longer than ... "PLEASE, FUCKING PLEEEEASE USE US!"

Rules change, I was notified long, long ago as a vendor account with PayPal NOT to use "gift" ... if it is NOT a gift.

Jesus fucking Christ, ... what the fuck is wrong with people here?

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Old 12-16-2015, 02:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by BOLTTHROWER View Post
If I send somebody $50 using paypal gift, the recipient receives $50 and my account is debited $50. No fee is taken from the sender or recipient.
This is why some pay more for gift and some don't
If you fund the gift with PayPal balance or bank account its free
If you fund the gift with debit or credit card then the fee2.9% plus $0.30 per transaction
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:03 PM   #19
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:04 PM   #20
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Lets see if I've got this straight.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:05 PM   #21
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Yeah... ban people for using PayPal gift... get off your rant
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Lets see if I've got this straight.

A dishonest seller encourages the buyer to lie about the nature of a transaction, to cheat Paypal out of their fee for a voluntary service (theft of service).

The dishonest buyer agrees. And then whines when they "discover" the seller is just as dishonest with them as they were with Paypal.

Both parties are liars, cheats, and thieves - both for using Paypal and disguising the prohibited transaction, and also for lying about the nature of the transaction (gift, when it is a merchandise purchase).

Both liars and cheats should be banned from AK Files. We don't need that kind of scum here. Anyone who lies to and cheats one, will do it to another - eventually.

Paypal is also a dishonest company, full of liars and thieves, against which the consumer has no recourse - but that's a separate issue. They are not advertising here.

Convenience comes at a price.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:29 PM   #22
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How about we require new sellers to ship out product first, and when received by established member, the payment is sent
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:46 PM   #23
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Bullshit. If I gift $50 to you, $50 is taken from my account and given to you. PP get's ZERO from that transaction.

The bottom line is, if you use PP gift for purchases, you are no better than a common thief. You can rationalize it all you'd like, but you are only lying to yourself.
I guess it's been awhile since I've used PayPal. Used to be they'd charge a % for gift to the sender. My apologies.

ETA: if you use a debit card or credit card to send money via gift, it's 2.9% + $.30. I didn't know you could transfer money from your PP account or bank account for free. I've never used PP in that manner, just sent money to family in the past and remembered the charges.
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:48 PM   #24
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How about this is the interwebs... Pay the cost role the di
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RigPig View Post
I guess it's been awhile since I've used PayPal. Used to be they'd charge a % for gift to the sender. My apologies.
Explained:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickysharon View Post
This is why some pay more for gift and some don't
If you fund the gift with PayPal balance or bank account its free
If you fund the gift with debit or credit card then the fee2.9% plus $0.30 per transaction
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Old 12-16-2015, 03:57 PM   #26
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Explained:
I went and looked at the PP fee scale myself, thanks.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:01 PM   #27
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Yeah... ban people for using PayPal gift... get off your rant
Ban people who are established liars, cheats, and thieves.

B-b-b-but they only lied, cheated, and stole from PayPal, and it's cool to steal from big companies. . . . .

Hey dummy, a thief is a thief is a thief. If he hasn't stolen from you, it's 'cause he ain't got around to it yet.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:03 PM   #28
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:19 PM   #29
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:59 PM   #30
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I think member vetting would be a good idea. Just have everyone here post their full name and address, social security number, mothers maiden name, where they went to high school, city they were born in, and their childhood pet's name. Let gets started everyone, me last!!! Now where is that credit card sign up site...
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:13 PM   #31
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You can CYA as much as possible, but there will always be some risk in dealing online.

Caveat Emptor.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Ban people who are established liars, cheats, and thieves.

B-b-b-but they only lied, cheated, and stole from PayPal, and it's cool to steal from big companies. . . . .

Hey dummy, a thief is a thief is a thief. If he hasn't stolen from you, it's 'cause he ain't got around to it yet.
Not looking to engage but, do like the moral high grownd when the airs not to thin. However, Am I constrainted to only fight those enemies who attack me directly?

Seems a bit counter intuitive to the hole Old Testiment Retribution thing.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:44 PM   #33
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MO only. USPS.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:09 PM   #34
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Why use Pay-Pal in the first place? By their own policies/terms of service, they admit that are hostile to firearms owners in general. To this end, they have no problem tying up your money or cancelling your account as a form of punishment if you get caught breaking their terms of service.

Pay-Pal is run by greedy and unscrupulous people. I used their services for a year when I was buying and selling used motorcycle parts; I don't use them anymore. It's like paying a high vigorish to the Mafia; they "get their beak wet" on each transaction. However, if you screw them by fraudulently using the "Gift" feature; you're no better than they are.

Why not use Postal Money Orders exclusively? All the members I've done business with through the Marketplace have all been stand-up guys. They have real names, and real addresses; this the info that I write on the face of the Money Order. They all have to show real I.D. to cash them. The Post Office takes a dim view of mail fraud; I'd trust them to pursue a complaint more vigorously than Pay-Pal. .............James.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:15 PM   #35
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Why not use Postal Money Orders exclusively?
Ever tried buying a money order at the post office around Christmas time? If you're buying a Krink kit it's understandable to go through the trouble, but if you're buying a gas tube for $20 I'm not sure anybody cares to spend an hour in line for that MO.
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