Go Back   The AK Files Forums > General Forums > RKBA and Legal

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-08-2008, 11:19 AM   #36
akjim
Curio & Relic
 
akjim's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 7245
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: maine woods
Posts: 2,547
Default

KK,,,,Val thanks as always for the explanation. I prayed you wouldn't snub me,,,,,
seriously, that was a great help and concise enought for even this confused old guy to understand,,,,,I'm a little bummed but C'est la Vie,,,,C'est La Guerrre...
__________________
LET US SPEAK COURTEOUSLY, DEAL FAIRLY, AND KEEP OURSELVES ARMED AND READY,,,,,TEDDY ROOSEVELT 1903

WOO HOOO WHAT A RIDE !

"SQUADRON LEADER AKJIM, 11 GROUP AKF, REPORTING FOR NIGHT ZEPPELIN INTERCEPT DUTY,,, AS ORDERED SIR"
akjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 05:55 PM   #37
Bascot
Senior Member
 
Bascot's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 13742
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Altamont, TN
Posts: 768
Default

Okay, you've got me confused now too. I have a stamped MAK 90 with a cracked stock. I bought a Tapco fusion system for it - the adjustable stock, foreguard and pistol grip. I put on a new Tapco gas piston and a slant brake. Since it has a "threaded" (circular) barrel the left-hand threaded Tapco didn't 'bite' and came off while shooting. So now I have 4 ? parts?
I also have a Tapco trigger system, but didn't install it because 1) it was over my head to do so, 2) the current trigger has a really sweet pull.

So, should I have a gunsmith measure the pull, replace the trigger with the Tapco stuff, then have 7 total, and perhaps spot weld the slant brake?

While I think these laws are silly like everyone else, I have a carry permit and a Curio & Relic ffl and don't wish to jeopardize them.
__________________
Truth in the heart
Strength in the arm
Honesty in speech
Bascot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2008, 10:00 PM   #38
SHARPSSHOOTER5090
Member
 
AKaholic #: 10723
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UTAH
Posts: 29
Default

I know this has been asked before but I can't fine the referance to it. How does a belt feet mechanism on a MG42/53 or MG47 series and belt links fall into the 922r parts count?

SS
SHARPSSHOOTER5090 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2008, 09:39 PM   #39
Bascot
Senior Member
 
Bascot's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 13742
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Altamont, TN
Posts: 768
Default

Can I also purchase and use a Tapco 30 round banana clip for before-mentioned rifle in order to be 922 compliant?
__________________
Truth in the heart
Strength in the arm
Honesty in speech
Bascot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 12:16 AM   #40
Edgepulse
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 24457
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: USA, Texas, Bellaire/Texas
Posts: 12
Default

Does a US made axis pin retainer plate count as a US made part in the old count of things?
Edgepulse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2009, 10:47 AM   #41
Viragos
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 3684
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Arizona
Posts: 722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgepulse
Does a US made axis pin retainer plate count as a US made part in the old count of things?
No.
Viragos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 03:41 PM   #42
orbitup
New Member
 
orbitup's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 66086
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oak Leaf Texas
Posts: 4
Default

I have a stamped MAK90 with a threaded barrel. I can't put a brake on it, US made or not?

Am I supposed to use the 5 rnd mags that came with it?

And I guess getting rid of the thumbhole stock is out of the question.
orbitup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 04:16 PM   #43
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

Unless you live in Kali or one of the other places with a silly state AW ban still in place you can use any magazine you want to. A brake is OK, a flash hider is not unless you play the "10 parts or less" game. Ditto for changing out the stock to a standard AK type with PG.

Basically, the law has a list of parts that can be on a gun, your MAK90 (with a muzzle device attached and a mag in place) has 16 parts on that list. In order to modify it into a configuration that would be banned from import (adding a flash hider, PG style stock, bayonet, etc.) you have to take 6 of those parts off the rifle and replace them with US made ones. The most common are the 3 piece FCG (3 parts) and the gas piston (3+1=4) and since you don't currently have a muzzle device, getting a US made one will be another part off the count (4+1=5) That leaves one part, common parts available are the buttstock, PG, handguards, and various magazine parts. If you have a slant cut receiver the only stock that will look good and fit properly is a US made one by Ironwood so there's your 6th part. You could also easily substitute one of their PGs instead of the gas piston, easier to install.

Once you do that, legal under Fed law.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 05:26 PM   #44
orbitup
New Member
 
orbitup's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 66086
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oak Leaf Texas
Posts: 4
Default

Thanks for the quick reply.

I live in TX so I'm safe from "silly state bans."

Looks like I need to stock up on US made parts so I can put a PG on it.
orbitup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 01:36 PM   #45
bucc
Member
 
AKaholic #: 157027
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NC / US
Posts: 47
Default

I think they should obfuscate a little.

Wow.

This seems like a little game here = number of parts foreign, US, virtual, extraterrestrial, extra-territorial waters...

Does this have anything to do with an AK being made select-fire capable? Or is is totally arbitrary?

Please indulge my ignorance here...
bucc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2011, 05:52 PM   #46
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

1989, import ban on "non-sporting" rifles and shotguns. Basically, if it looks like an "assault weapon", you can't import it. Which is why we have things like single stack 10 shot WASR rifles and MAK90s back in the day, "neutered" rifles to get around the ban by removing "evil features" such as pistol grips and large cap magazines.

Soon, manufacturers here learned they could buy all the parts for the banned gun cheap and rebuild it on a US made receiver, making it legally a US made gun, not imported. Someone in the .gov decided this was an end run around their beloved ban and then we had the 922(r) regulation which states it shall be illegal to assemble a rifle/shotgun from foreign made parts if the gun would be banned from import in that particular configuration. A supporting reg clarifies this as no more than 10 foreign parts from a list of 20 specified in the law can be on a banned configuration rifle. Not all guns have all 20 parts, so in practice maybe 4-6 parts need replaced to be legal.

In the beginning, this killed the rebuilding of parts kits due to a lack of US made parts. Eventually companies saw a demand, parts got made, and now we can simply order a few parts over the internet and legally build AKs and other imported rifles.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:19 PM   #47
spfautsch
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 157360
Join Date: May 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4
Default

Lots of great info in this thread, thanks! Hoping someone can contribute a bit more for the sake of clarity.

I would like to convert my Yugo (Serbian) made Zastava PAP to accept double stack mags. I've read this thread and several others like it repeatedly, but I get confused when I see comments about the PG and muzzle attachment being considered "null parts". Also I've read and debated the topic and would like to stay away from using magazines as compliance parts because of their detachable nature. I want to know that if I sell / trade the gun at some point down the road it will be 100% compliant regardless of what kind of mags are used in it.

For those not familiar, the PAP is a single stack, 10 round mag all-imported gun with composite thumbhole stock and non-threaded muzzle aka "sporter". From what I've gathered, in it's current configuration it has 14 countable parts, and if I modify it in any way I need to replace a minimum of 4 compliance parts?

However, am I correct in stating that if I modify it to accept high capacity mags (or any two other banned features???), it becomes "evil" and now has 16 countable parts?

My ultimate goal is to have the magwell opened up and add a Romanian style underfolder. But I'm having a hard time finding any US made underfolders, and I've overspent my toy budget for 2011 already. So my intentions were to minimally replace / add the following compliant parts at the time I get the magwell milled out, thus allowing me to use imported mags and retain the imported thumbhole stock until I can afford the underfolder kit I want (which would then include a compliant pistol grip).

gas piston x1
FCG x3
muzzle brake x1
handguard x1

If I would have succeeded this would have been a compliant configuration, correct?

Unfortunately I didn't read up sufficiently before I purchased the handguard and learned the hard way that the Yugo handguards are shorter than warsaw pact AKs. Further research has proved that 922 compliant Yugo handguards are extremely scarce unfinished wooden bits, and in plastic seemingly non-existent.

So my question is will I be compliant if I substitute a US made pistol grip for the handguard, with a temporary imported buttstock (or splurge and just buy the imported underfolder now). The breakdown would be:

gas piston x1
FCG x3
muzzle brake x1
pistol grip x1

Or have I confused myself somewhere along the way?
spfautsch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 06:14 PM   #48
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

What is and isn't importable seems to change with the wind, so the safe assumpton is as soon as the magwell accepts double stack mags, you need to play the parts count game.

Count the imported parts you will have in the gun when it is in each configuration. With an underfolder and a muzzle device, you have 16 countable parts. With a fixed stock and pistol grip and muzzle device, you still have 16 parts. So 6 of those parts need to be either US made or simply left off the rifle. If money is tight, why thread the muzzle and add a muzzle device? Leave it plain, no part to count. Do it later. Now you only have 5 parts to worry about. Use a cheap imported fixed stock for now and the US pistol grip and FCG with gas piston, 5 parts. Legal.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 08:03 PM   #49
LESchwartz
Veteran Member
Contributor
 
LESchwartz's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2434
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sunny Minnesota
Posts: 1,536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spfautsch
However, am I correct in stating that if I modify it to accept high capacity mags (or any two other banned features???), it becomes "evil" and now has 16 countable parts?
This thread is getting kind of long and there is quite a bit of misinformation here, but I'll take a shot at answering your question...

First, 922(r) applied when you add your first "restricted feature". So as soon as you open up the mag well and are capable of accepting high capacity magazines, 922(r) applies.

Second, it's not like your rifle suddenly jumps from 14 to 16 parts when you open up the mag well. Lots of folks like the 16 parts number and are fond of adding "null" parts to make it to 16 -- maybe they think it's easier. However, doing it that way can cause errors in your parts count (there are several common errors). Always count the imported parts installed, that way you can't accidentally go astray.

And finally, your starting parts count is off: The PAP starts with 15 imported parts. I'm pretty sure you forgot to count the pistol grip that's integrated into the t-hole stock. It's a common mistake, since this "counting anomaly" is not well known. (I posted a letter from ATF over in the legal section several years ago, so you can check my assertion.)

Larry
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMor View Post
The AK Files is not a polite place. We have a lot of assholes here, and we allow them to pretty much say what they want
LESchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 11:28 AM   #50
spfautsch
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 157360
Join Date: May 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4
Default

Thanks both of you for the replies, much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
First, 922(r) applied when you add your first "restricted feature". So as soon as you open up the mag well and are capable of accepting high capacity magazines, 922(r) applies.
I read something that lead me to believe it applied as soon as you engage in the process of "assembling", which to my uneducated mind equates to changing the configuration of the weapon as it was originally imported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
Second, it's not like your rifle suddenly jumps from 14 to 16 parts when you open up the mag well. Lots of folks like the 16 parts number and are fond of adding "null" parts to make it to 16 -- maybe they think it's easier. However, doing it that way can cause errors in your parts count (there are several common errors). Always count the imported parts installed, that way you can't accidentally go astray.
This begs the question then of why the PG is considered a null part if it's there even when integrated into a thumbhole stock (something I had also wondered about).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
And finally, your starting parts count is off: The PAP starts with 15 imported parts. I'm pretty sure you forgot to count the pistol grip that's integrated into the t-hole stock. It's a common mistake, since this "counting anomaly" is not well known. (I posted a letter from ATF over in the legal section several years ago, so you can check my assertion.)
I guess what I was (incorrectly?) thinking is that as soon as the weapon becomes an assault rifle, it is presumed to have a muzzle device and / or a threaded muzzle, which the PAP does not. From this perspective it's clear (to me at least) why a brake would be considered a null part. But not the PG.

I think I'm actually more confused now than before. But in a nutshell I should be good to replace 5 parts with compliant pieces, and if I choose to add a compliant muzzle brake it's irrelevant?

I guess what worries me most about my limited knowledge of 922r is that it's interpretation seems to be highly subjective. It bothers me that the rear trunion is not counted in the lists, but my common sense tells me it's a countable part and it seems completely plausible that a judge could correctly rule in either direction.
spfautsch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #51
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

It is not a rear trunnion, it is a stock mountiung bracket, per ATF. The technical, and ATF, definition of trunnion is a "bbl mounting block".

Forget "null parts" or whatever, just count the number of foreign parts on the rifle. ATF ruled that a "thumbhole" type stock is a separate stock and PG for 922(r) puproses, so it counts as 2 even though it is only one piece. ATF rulings rarely make sense to "gun people", so just go with it and quit worrying about the logic behind it, there is none.

And remember, the foreign parts on the rifle are all that count, if you say removed both upper and lower handguards, the part count drops by one. No rule requires you to put US made ones on, leave the bbl bare and it is still one less part in the count.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 02:05 PM   #52
spfautsch
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 157360
Join Date: May 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4
Default

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm a programmer by trade and I guess I was thrown by my understanding of the word "null" along with the expectation that there be some inherent logic behind this (and every) law.

Last Q: does anyone know of any BATF published material available that outlines these definitions such as the one for "trunion" referenced above?
spfautsch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2011, 05:32 PM   #53
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

ATF doesn't provide things like that, but they do answer technical questions in letters if you write their tech branch. Address should be on their website. Be aware you can ask a simple yes or no question, they will feel the need to lawyer it up with multiple cites and answer questions you didn't ask instead of saying yes or no.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 12:02 PM   #54
BOOM__STICK
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 156706
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: BFE, Alaska
Posts: 20
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink
It is not a rear trunnion, it is a stock mountiung bracket, per ATF. The technical, and ATF, definition of trunnion is a "bbl mounting block".

Forget "null parts" or whatever, just count the number of foreign parts on the rifle. ATF ruled that a "thumbhole" type stock is a separate stock and PG for 922(r) puproses, so it counts as 2 even though it is only one piece. ATF rulings rarely make sense to "gun people", so just go with it and quit worrying about the logic behind it, there is none.

And remember, the foreign parts on the rifle are all that count, if you say removed both upper and lower handguards, the part count drops by one. No rule requires you to put US made ones on, leave the bbl bare and it is still one less part in the count.



So am I to take this as to mean that the parts count would remain the same (unchanged) on a MAK-90 if I removed the thumb-hole butt-stock and replaced it with a 2-piece butt and PG assy from an original type-56 Chinese AK?
On a factory (imported) Norinco MAK-90 the wooden thumb-hole "sporting" butt-stock counts as 2 imported parts (per this interpretation), so technically it wouldn't be changed by swapping it for another 2-piece (2 actually physically separate pieces) imported setup. Right?

So if this is true then what the hell was the point of the stupid thumb-hole butt stocks on the 1000's of "neutered" AK's imported with them installed?

In reading all through this thread I've come away with more questions than I expected. Just when you think you know something...
BOOM__STICK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 12:27 PM   #55
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,378
Default

No, it wouldn't be the same.

The various bans and regulations were implemented over time. The MAK90 pre-dates the 922(r) "10 parts rule" and exists because of the 1989 AW import ban. To get around that ban, then current regs allowed a rifle with "sporter" thumbhole stocks and no muzzle threads or bayonet lug to be imported. By the time 922(r) came along Chinese arms were banned so no more MAK90s in any configuration.

As long as the original thumbhole "sporter" stock configuration remains, the MAK90 is legal as it was imported that way. If you now convert it to "classic AK" configuration with a pistol grip and stock, 922(r) would apply as it is the current regulation you have to comply with. That means no more than 10 imported parts from the list when you are done.

Where the "thumbhole sporter stock is considered a PG and a stock (2 parts) for 922(r) purposes" would come in is if you took a rifle already subject to 922(r) and replaced the separate PG and stock with the one piece from the MAK90 or similar. It would then count as 2 parts, even though they are connected together as a single piece of wood. Or say you threaded the MAK90 muzzle for a flash suppressor and replaced the gasblock with a bayonet lug model, the gun would now be subject to 922(r) and the original TH stock would count as 2 parts.

Imported rifles came in with thumbhole stocks as there is a list of features that ban a rifle from import, you are only allowed so many before the ban kicks in. Using a thumbhole stock will let you have something else on the list.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 07:48 PM   #56
LESchwartz
Veteran Member
Contributor
 
LESchwartz's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2434
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sunny Minnesota
Posts: 1,536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spfautsch
Last Q: does anyone know of any BATF published material available that outlines these definitions such as the one for "trunion" referenced above?
ATF doesn't have a handy publication for this sort of thing. The do send out letters containing responses to specific questions. We glean what we can from these letters and by observing whet is being imported and sold by the importers and manufacturers.

WARNING #1: Technically speaking, ATF letters may not have quite the CYA value we imagine. ATF used to be part of the Revenue Dept. When they were, a court decision came out saying that since they weren't part of the DOJ there decisions didn't have weight of law. Now that ATF is part of DOJ who knows . . .

WARNING #2: Technically speaking, ATF's letters only apply to the original writer. Since YMMV, you should use them as guidance, not gospel.

WARNING #3: ATF letters have been known to have mistakes. If they do, you're SOL.

Larry

PS: If you're interested, I have a copy of a letter about trunnions.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMor View Post
The AK Files is not a polite place. We have a lot of assholes here, and we allow them to pretty much say what they want

Last edited by LESchwartz; 08-04-2011 at 07:55 PM.
LESchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2011, 10:43 PM   #57
allesennogwat
Curio & Relic
 
allesennogwat's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3738
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 44,988
Default

The ATF says the MAK-90 thumbhole stock on any other rifle that wasn't imported with it is now considered to have a separate pistol grip. I think they did this with a few others. One was the Steyr AUG post ban model and another I think think was the FAL thumbhole. Those don't really matter though as both of those rifle designs accept high capacity military magazines. Now they say the Romanian, Yugoslavian and Saiga thumbholes do not have separate pistol grips. It took me a while but I think it's the fact that some or most of he Romanian stocks don't take a pistol grip screw. The Yugoslavian can't take a pistol grip screw but does have a short wood screw there. The Saiga design is completely different. I don't really see the difference in MAK-90 stock except that it takes a pistol grip screw. Maybe they are calling the stocks that use the same attachment methods as the pistol grip version as having a separate pistol grip. Since late 1998 the MAK-90 stock in any other rifle is classed as having a pistol grip and triggers 922R. The Romanian thumbhole stock does not.
__________________
Daraclor: A brand of anti-malaria pills which we had to drink every week while on the border. Legend had it that these would make you turn yellow and that you wouldn't be able to tan.
allesennogwat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2011, 12:02 AM   #58
LESchwartz
Veteran Member
Contributor
 
LESchwartz's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2434
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sunny Minnesota
Posts: 1,536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by allesennogwat
The ATF says the MAK-90 thumbhole stock on any other rifle that wasn't imported with it is now considered to have a separate pistol grip.



Since late 1998 the MAK-90 stock in any other rifle is classed as having a pistol grip and triggers 922R. The Romanian thumbhole stock does not.
I've never heard that before, it's a pretty important piece of news . . . do you have scans of the ATF letter?

Larry
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMor View Post
The AK Files is not a polite place. We have a lot of assholes here, and we allow them to pretty much say what they want
LESchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2011, 03:58 AM   #59
allesennogwat
Curio & Relic
 
allesennogwat's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3738
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 44,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LESchwartz
I've never heard that before, it's a pretty important piece of news . . . do you have scans of the ATF letter?

Larry
I may have copies somewhere. It doesn't change the parts count for 922R as all thumbhole stocks are counted as two parts as far as I can tell. What happened in the reassessment of 1998 is that certain thumbhole stocks were ruled to have too much pistol grip. Look at the Steyr USR for the extreme example. It has the full pistol grip with a closed loop from the bottom of the pistol grip to the stock. A lot of rifles that would have been banned anyway due to being able to accept high capacity military magazines got their thumbhole stocks banned in the same year, 1998. The MAK-90 (previously banned for being Chinese), the FAL and the HK91. These stocks are described as "having a pistol grip near the trigger." I guess the other extreme from the AUG version would be just a small hole in a regular Monte Carlo stock which wouldn't have "a pistol grip near the trigger."

What it does do is restrict adding a Chinese MAK-90 thumbhole to a different AK which would trip 922R.

The Saiga is sold in other countries with commercial 15 round and 30 round magazines but they do not accept military magazines. It's not being able to just take hi cap mags, but being able to take military high capacity magazines that was banned from import in 1998. Note the magazine is also in the rifle parts count. Somebody could make hi cap single stack magazines but they wouldn't be legal to use without the rifle meeting 922R.
__________________
Daraclor: A brand of anti-malaria pills which we had to drink every week while on the border. Legend had it that these would make you turn yellow and that you wouldn't be able to tan.
allesennogwat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2011, 04:06 AM   #60
knall
Curio & Relic
 
knall's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5181
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: northern NH
Posts: 4,661
Default

I had a rifle with a USA thumbhole stock, I was counting as 2 parts.

2 import parts REMOVED: pistol grip and stock.

It doesnt matter how many USA parts you ad to the rifle.... just how many import parts you REMOVE.
knall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2011, 06:50 PM   #61
flicker
Member
 
AKaholic #: 158635
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: butler pa
Posts: 131
Default

im a newbe to this and building my ? is i wanna keep the build as orig as poss and if i buy a tapco g2 trigger which is 3 parts from what i hear and an nds1 receiver along with a us barrel and muzzle brake would i then be in compliance probly a dumb ??? which i probly answered lol but dont feel like geting in trouble over the dumb law just cant seem to understand it eather way its steal an ak47 with import parts or not
flicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 12:59 PM   #62
RouteOne
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 165865
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 2
Default

Hello, just a quick 922r question.


I have a saiga straight from the factory with *zero* changes to it. I do plan to install a rear sight rail and put an optic on it, though.


This is the is the item in question:

http://strikeindustries.com/shop/ind...ot-optics.html


Now, I'm looking over the list contained in 922r and I see nothing about sights, optics or optic rails. If I install this optic rail on my saiga and put an optic on it, will it still be 922r compliant since they are both U.S. made parts?

Thanks.
RouteOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:43 PM   #63
nalioth
Devil's Advocate & Moderator
 
nalioth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5678
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 37,964
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RouteOne View Post
Now, I'm looking over the list contained in 922r and I see nothing about sights, optics or optic rails. If I install this optic rail on my saiga and put an optic on it, will it still be 922r compliant since they are both U.S. made parts?
If it's not on the list, it's got nothing to do with 922r, no matter where the part is made.

Enjoy your new rifle
nalioth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:47 PM   #64
Esteps_Guns
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 159161
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Undisclosed Location, USA
Posts: 541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RouteOne View Post
Hello, just a quick 922r question.


I have a saiga straight from the factory with *zero* changes to it. I do plan to install a rear sight rail and put an optic on it, though.


This is the is the item in question:

http://strikeindustries.com/shop/ind...ot-optics.html


Now, I'm looking over the list contained in 922r and I see nothing about sights, optics or optic rails. If I install this optic rail on my saiga and put an optic on it, will it still be 922r compliant since they are both U.S. made parts?

Thanks.
Adding sights / optics / rails to your saiga won't affect 922 compliance.. Only the major parts of the gun count towards or against 922 compliance..

Those "major parts" are ::

Trunnion
trigger group (trigger / hammer / disconnector)
gas piston
bolt carrier
bolt
muzzle device (muzzle brake)
stock
forearm (see: Handguards)
pistol grip
mag parts (body / follower / floorplate)
receiver
barrel


The little parts or accessories (optics) will not affect your compliance parts count.... in other words, you wouldn't be committing a crime or detracting from compliance parts by putting for instance a POSP /PSL style sniper scope on your saiga (if one would fit, which I would bet it wouldn't)..
__________________
Only god can judge me.

No longer taking work
Esteps_Guns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:47 PM   #65
David Teague
Droll Moderator
 
David Teague's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 162037
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: You can see climate change from here.
Posts: 12,329
Default

Your Saiga was imported as a sporting firearm, it does not fall under 922r.

Now if you want to add a pistol grip ( not thumbhole stock) like a military AK would have, then you enter the realm of 922r compliance as you are remanufacturing that sporter rifle into a milspec rifle .

The AK is broken down into 16 main parts under 922r, only 10 on that list can be foreign and the other 6 made in the US... sights and optics are not part of the list.

Do what you want with optics, it will be ok.
__________________
Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

http://www.novarata.net/images/n/teague-sigpic-357.jpg
David Teague is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:56 PM   #66
LESchwartz
Veteran Member
Contributor
 
LESchwartz's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2434
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sunny Minnesota
Posts: 1,536
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RouteOne View Post
Hello, just a quick 922r question.


I have a saiga straight from the factory with *zero* changes to it. I do plan to install a rear sight rail and put an optic on it, though.


This is the is the item in question:

http://strikeindustries.com/shop/ind...ot-optics.html


Now, I'm looking over the list contained in 922r and I see nothing about sights, optics or optic rails. If I install this optic rail on my saiga and put an optic on it, will it still be 922r compliant since they are both U.S. made parts?

Thanks.
OK, let's go back to the beginning and get started again . . .

First, 922(r) covers the act of assembling a non-importable rifle from imported parts. So if you haven't messed with the rifle since it was purchased, you should be fine. In fact you're fine even when you purchase a non-compliant rifle from someone else. However, as you might imagine, some folks are nervous about owning such a rifle. In the past, ATF has said that having a sales receipt or bill-of-sale that lists the specific configuration would be good enough proof (as always, YMMV).

Second, is the "non-importable" part: ATF has determined that semiautomatic rifles with certain features such as bayonets, grenade launchers, folding stocks or detachable magazines are not importable. Thus adding those features to an imported semiautomatic rifle is prohibited.

Finally, is the "from imported parts" piece of the puzzle: ATF realized that many rifles made by US manufacturers contain some imported parts (screws, springs, etc). So they made up a list of 20 parts that are "counted". If more than 10 of those parts in a particular rifle are imported, the rifle is said to be made from imported parts. However, most rifles don't even come close to having all 20 parts from ATF's list. For example, the Saiga only has 14 of the parts from that list -- replace 4 and your is no longer made from "imported parts". (As noted, the AKM has 16 parts.)

So on to your specifics: Saigas have no restricted features. If you add the sight, you still do not have any restricted features and your rifle is still compliant.

Larry
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanMor View Post
The AK Files is not a polite place. We have a lot of assholes here, and we allow them to pretty much say what they want
LESchwartz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 01:44 PM   #67
RouteOne
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 165865
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 2
Default

Hey thanks everyone! You all have been quite helpful.



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
Your Saiga was imported as a sporting firearm, it does not fall under 922r.

Now if you want to add a pistol grip ( not thumbhole stock) like a military AK would have, then you enter the realm of 922r compliance as you are remanufacturing that sporter rifle into a milspec rifle .

The AK is broken down into 16 main parts under 922r, only 10 on that list can be foreign and the other 6 made in the US... sights and optics are not part of the list.

Do what you want with optics, it will be ok.
If I add the skeleton stock from the Saiga factory wouldn't it not count towards 922r since it is a Russian part?
RouteOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2012, 02:07 PM   #68
nalioth
Devil's Advocate & Moderator
 
nalioth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5678
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 37,964
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RouteOne View Post
If I add the skeleton stock from the Saiga factory wouldn't it not count towards 922r since it is a Russian part?
No, it wouldn't count because the "pistol grip" isn't directly attached to the receiver.
nalioth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 10:52 AM   #69
Armen
Member
 
AKaholic #: 43020
Join Date: May 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 115
Default WASR rules?

On a WASR 10, there are no barrel threads, so no muzzle device (1 less foreign part).
But, I can't find any USA magazines or parts. It uses a single stack mag.
I'm keeping the original furniture.
No bayonette lug
I'll have a USA receiver.
Have a Tapco piston.
Probably the Red Star trigger group.
Have the Red Star shepherd's crook.
Original barrel.
Could do US sights
Wondering where this puts me on the 922 list.
thanks!
Armen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #70
nalioth
Devil's Advocate & Moderator
 
nalioth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5678
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 37,964
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen View Post
On a WASR 10, there are no barrel threads, so no muzzle device (1 less foreign part).
But, I can't find any USA magazines or parts. It uses a single stack mag.
If it uses a single stack magazine, 922r does not apply. You've only got one "evil feature" (the pistol grip) and so in possession of an importable firearm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen View Post
*SNIP*
Wondering where this puts me on the 922 list.
Not anywhere on the 922r radar.


Also, did you even read the original post of this thread?

Shepherds crooks and sights don't have anything to do with 922r (922r isn't an "add any US part" doctrine, but only parts from a specific list in the U. S. Code)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armen View Post
I'll have a USA receiver.
I would like to remind you to demil your WASR correctly before Xferring the parts to a US receiver.
Demilling it improperly will lead to federal felonies.

Last edited by nalioth; 03-09-2013 at 03:02 PM.
nalioth is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2017 The AK FIles