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Old 02-09-2018, 08:06 PM   #1
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Default Out of battery or bad ammo?

My friends dad was shooting his keltec pmr 30. The gun has a few thousand rounds through with only a hand full of malfunctions. Please bare with me as my communication with him is through text. He's not retarded by any means but he is 65 so it's not as fluent as it is with some of us.

Anyways, the last 4 rounds of 22 magnum would not fire. They would chamber but wouldn't go bang. He ejected them and all had a primer strike. He fed one manually into the pistol and boom the rim blew out. Nothing happened other then the slide stop blew off lol.

I have some thoughts on what happened but I'm hoping someone more educated could shed some light on the situation at hand. I'll load pic gimmie a second to resize.

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Old 02-09-2018, 08:09 PM   #2
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Guessing ammo
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:15 PM   #3
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Guessing ammo
I'm guessing ammo too on the sole fact 4 rounds wouldnt fire. But is there a possibility he had an out of battery? I mean he did load it manually when this happened.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:19 PM   #4
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I just bought this same pistol because his had been so good to him. I really hope it's an ammo and not a gun issue. I know Keltecs suck which is why I'm skeptical
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:23 PM   #5
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I'm guessing ammo too on the sole fact 4 rounds wouldnt fire. But is there a possibility he had an out of battery? I mean he did load it manually when this happened.
Yea maybe action didn't close all the way on that last one.
Yea I seen your post about it, hope ammo to bud
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:37 PM   #6
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Looks like an out of battery ,look at the case its a clue the way its blown out.
The fact the primer was already hit ,means it could of gone off anytime and appears to have done so.
Has absolutely nothing to do with Keltecs quality ,if you have been around awhile it will happen to you sooner or later.
Last example I personally witnessed was a 1911 .45. Last week a coworkers M1A had one.
So far my PMR 30s shoot about 600 rds. with only one malfunction. A failure to go into battery do to a buddy incorrectly loading a mag.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:09 PM   #7
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A piece of a brass case may have gotten left it the chamber and prevented subsequent rounds from chambering correctly.

I would not say that Kel-tecs are junk, they work fine for their intended uses. I would blame the ammo.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:10 PM   #8
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Well... I just traveled down a rabbits hole of PMR-30's that have blown up, and there's a lot of them. Kel-Tec forums are full of horror stories. I knew i shouldnt have got this thing. 30 rounds in a pistol seems so awesome. I guess if it seems to good to be true it is.

They claim it cannot be fired out of battery but I think they're full of shit.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:25 PM   #9
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Just curious about the no bang on the 4 rounds. Do you know what ammo he was using?

Was it cleaned during it's 1000 round service?
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:58 PM   #10
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It could have failed to go fully into battery on all of those rounds and because of that it was light striking. I've had a .22 LR round fire out of battery and it looked like that.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:03 AM   #11
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Just curious about the no bang on the 4 rounds. Do you know what ammo he was using?

Was it cleaned during it's 1000 round service?
It was cleaned 2 two days before today, and the ammo was 50 grain federal. He usually shoots cci 40 grain but he got a hundred or so of those to experiment with. I guess tbe experiment worked. I've shot his PMR and it's always worked great.

I hate to say it, but I don't even want my PMR-30 now, and I haven't even got a chance to shoot it yet. I'm really disappointed and it wasn't even my gun. I was totally unaware of all the complaints of PMR's blowing up. I knew about failure to feed issues of the earlier models. I just don't see how so many have blown up. The majority that I read were with the recommended CCI ammo.

I wasn't there to witness what happened. I would love to say it's the ammo, but with all the other complaints (and there's a lot) I just don't know.

I know rimfire ammo sucks... but that bad, with all different brands? I'm no expert but I also wasn't born yesterday.

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Old 02-10-2018, 12:44 AM   #12
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It was cleaned 2 two days before today, and the ammo was 50 grain federal. He usually shoots cci 40 grain but he got a hundred or so of those to experiment with. I guess tbe experiment worked. I've shot his PMR and it's always worked great.

I hate to say it, but I don't even want my PMR-30 now, and I haven't even got a chance to shoot it yet. I'm really disappointed and it wasn't even my gun. I was totally unaware of all the complaints of PMR's blowing up. I knew about failure to feed issues of the earlier models. I just don't see how so many have blown up. The majority that I read were with the recommended CCI ammo.

I wasn't there to witness what happened. I would love to say it's the ammo, but with all the other complaints (and there's a lot) I just don't know.

I know rimfire ammo sucks... but that bad, with all different brands? I'm no expert but I also wasn't born yesterday.
I know very little about this pistol and have done zero research. But I do know some rimfires can be finickey about ammo and being clean. But I wouldn't say rimfire ammo sucks. It does look to be a neat little pistol, although ugly IMO.

I like the .22WMR cartridge and have never had any problems with CCI ammo.

Hope your pistols runs well and trouble free.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:06 AM   #13
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I know very little about this pistol and have done zero research. But I do know some rimfires can be finickey about ammo and being clean. But I wouldn't say rimfire ammo sucks. It does look to be a neat little pistol, although ugly IMO.

I like the .22WMR cartridge and have never had any problems with CCI ammo.

Hope your pistols runs well and trouble free.
Nah... I'm selling it screw it.

I've wanted one for years. I knew they malfunctioned like crazy in earlier times. Once my buddies dad got one and it functioned right, I figured I'd take the plunge. After his and reading so many threads in Kel-tec forum about them blowing up, I'm over it for good. I should have bought the FN Five Seven. I'm just not a fan of where the safeties placed on the FN.
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:31 AM   #14
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Nah... I'm selling it screw it.

I've wanted one for years. I knew they malfunctioned like crazy in earlier times. Once my buddies dad got one and it functioned right, I figured I'd take the plunge. After his and reading so many threads in Kel-tec forum about them blowing up, I'm over it for good. I should have bought the FN Five Seven. I'm just not a fan of where the safeties placed on the FN.

Meh, might as well get one of those .17cal rifles while your at it, maybe one of each. Hey, it's your money.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Idratherbapickle View Post
I just bought this same pistol because his had been so good to him. I really hope it's an ammo and not a gun issue. I know Keltecs suck which is why I'm skeptical
Yeah I am hoping too LOL as I am looking at this gun and was wondering how your experience was going.
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:36 PM   #16
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He fed one manually into the pistol and boom the rim blew out.
Just what do you mean by this? Did he open the slide and insert the round into the chamber, then drop the slide?
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:46 PM   #17
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Just what do you mean by this? Did he open the slide and insert the round into the chamber, then drop the slide?
You know... I'm not sure because I wasn't there. I'd bet a bakers dozen that he dropped the mag took the 4 out, left the mag out, pulled back the slide, inserted the round, closed the slide, then squeezed the trigger... so yes what you said lol.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderGod View Post
Just what do you mean by this? Did he open the slide and insert the round into the chamber, then drop the slide?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idratherbapickle View Post
They would chamber but wouldn't go bang. He ejected them and all had a primer strike. He fed one manually into the pistol and boom the rim blew out.
Did it go boom when the slide slammed home or boom when he pulled the trigger?
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:28 AM   #19
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Did it go boom when the slide slammed home or boom when he pulled the trigger?
Boom when trigger was pulled
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:46 PM   #20
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A few things come to mind.

It is never a good idea to load any magazine fed firearm "manually", if by that you mean placing one in the chamber and then closing the bolt. Even on bolt actions it can have deleterious effects on the extractor if nothing else. You always should let the bolt pick up the round from the mag on a mag fed weapon. Could very well be the bolt did not close all of the way.

A good cleaning/checking may be in order. As someone else said, there could be some type of obstruction, even a carbon buildup, in the chamber, keeping the cartridge from completely entering. Rimfire rounds are notoriously weak in the head/web area and if unsupported, are going to rupture. Rimfires are also notoriously dirtier, in general, than centerfire rounds. Could be it wasn't going into battery because of dirt/obstruction, and your dad over road the "safety factor" in manual loading.

Next guess would be the ammunition. Is it old? Left/stored in less than ideal conditions?
Can you try it in another firearm? How definitive were the firing pin strikes on those that didn't go bang?

Last I'd look at some type of wear/defect/malfunction of the pistol itself. I am not familiar with the Kel Tec, so I really would only be guessing on a particular ill.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:12 PM   #21
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[QUOTE=Sigiloso;4472015]

Quote:
It is never a good idea to load any magazine fed firearm "manually", if by that you mean placing one in the chamber and then closing the bolt. Even on bolt actions it can have deleterious effects on the extractor if nothing else. You always should let the bolt pick up the round from the mag on a mag fed weapon. Could very well be the bolt did not close all of the way.
I agree.

Quote:
A good cleaning/checking may be in order. As someone else said, there could be some type of obstruction, even a carbon buildup, in the chamber, keeping the cartridge from completely entering. Rimfire rounds are notoriously weak in the head/web area and if unsupported, are going to rupture. Rimfires are also notoriously dirtier, in general, than centerfire rounds. Could be it wasn't going into battery because of dirt/obstruction, and your dad over road the "safety factor" in manual loading.
The pistol was cleaned prior to use. If there was an obstruction he was unaware, he s saying there wasn't.

Quote:
Next guess would be the ammunition. Is it old? Left/stored in less than ideal conditions?
Ammo stored in cool dry temps, newish, all conditions normal.

Quote:
Can you try it in another firearm? How definitive were the firing pin strikes on those that didn't go bang?
I could try it in my Kel-Tec PMR but I'm a little unsure lol. I don't really want mine blowing up but I just may. I wish I had the results in front of me but I don't. He said they were fine. I cannot confirm nor deny.

Quote:
Last I'd look at some type of wear/defect/malfunction of the pistol itself. I am not familiar with the Kel Tec, so I really would only be guessing on a particular ill.
The pistol appeared to be fine in normal working order.

He traded the pistol off at full disclosure. I don't blame him. Now I'm stuck with my pmr30, not sure if I should sell it and wash my hands, or keep and shoot it.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:07 PM   #22
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[QUOTE=Idratherbapickle;4472152]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigiloso View Post

The pistol was cleaned prior to use. If there was an obstruction he was unaware, he s saying there wasn't.


The pistol appeared to be fine in normal working order.

He traded the pistol off at full disclosure. I don't blame him. Now I'm stuck with my pmr30, not sure if I should sell it and wash my hands, or keep and shoot it.
As far as obstruction, what I would have been looking for was a carbon or lead ring buildup at the front of the chamber or in the leade, ar perhaps. less likely, a part of a casing stuck in the chamber. They can be sometimes hard to see.

As far as yours, I'd keep it, and enjoy shooting it, if you have had no previous problems or indications. There does seem to be some peculiarities, and I would make sure that I kept it very clean, especially the bolt and chamber, used recommended ammo, and of course wear shooting glasses(which you should be doing anyway.)
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:27 PM   #23
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I suspect it blew due to the PMR30 method of operation. The bbl is free to recoil with the breech block for a short distance, there is a spring to keep it forward in the slide. When using hotter ammo, the friction between the expanded case and the chamber walls pulls the bbl rearward for a short distance, allowing chamber pressure to fall a bit before the bbl stops and the case is extracted. On lighter loads, the bbl pretty much stays stationary and functions as a straight blowback as the case is easier to extract with less friction. It is a balancing act, and I suspect the particular round that blew was just below the pressure point where the delay induced by the bbl movement takes place, yet just above the point where the unsupported case head needs that extra drop in pressure before extraction to keep it intact.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:12 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
I suspect it blew due to the PMR30 method of operation. The bbl is free to recoil with the breech block for a short distance, there is a spring to keep it forward in the slide. When using hotter ammo, the friction between the expanded case and the chamber walls pulls the bbl rearward for a short distance, allowing chamber pressure to fall a bit before the bbl stops and the case is extracted. On lighter loads, the bbl pretty much stays stationary and functions as a straight blowback as the case is easier to extract with less friction. It is a balancing act, and I suspect the particular round that blew was just below the pressure point where the delay induced by the bbl movement takes place, yet just above the point where the unsupported case head needs that extra drop in pressure before extraction to keep it intact.
Interesting, and explains a lot. Correct me if I am wrong, as I know little about the design, but the condition of the chamber walls (clean/dirty/rough/smooth/over lubricated) would weigh heavily on the operation then?
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
I suspect it blew due to the PMR30 method of operation. The bbl is free to recoil with the breech block for a short distance, there is a spring to keep it forward in the slide. When using hotter ammo, the friction between the expanded case and the chamber walls pulls the bbl rearward for a short distance, allowing chamber pressure to fall a bit before the bbl stops and the case is extracted. On lighter loads, the bbl pretty much stays stationary and functions as a straight blowback as the case is easier to extract with less friction. It is a balancing act, and I suspect the particular round that blew was just below the pressure point where the delay induced by the bbl movement takes place, yet just above the point where the unsupported case head needs that extra drop in pressure before extraction to keep it intact.
Really don't see that as being feasible ,maybe if there as some "debris "
part of a previous case in the chamber and it then would keep the
gun from being fully in battery and possible enough to still fire.
I have one of these guns and have putt about 600 rds. through it.
Maybe I'm reading your explanation wrong, but in that case it would seem to be less likely to happen.
9 times out 10 these deals are ammo or operator error.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:48 PM   #26
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Get one of the Rock Island .22TCm 9mm combos if you want a little hot rod caliber.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:38 AM   #27
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Interesting, and explains a lot. Correct me if I am wrong, as I know little about the design, but the condition of the chamber walls (clean/dirty/rough/smooth/over lubricated) would weigh heavily on the operation then?

It likely would, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy72 View Post
Really don't see that as being feasible ,maybe if there as some "debris "
part of a previous case in the chamber and it then would keep the
gun from being fully in battery and possible enough to still fire.
I have one of these guns and have putt about 600 rds. through it.
Maybe I'm reading your explanation wrong, but in that case it would seem to be less likely to happen.
9 times out 10 these deals are ammo or operator error.
I'm not talking about an out of battery ignition, I'm referencing the fact that early extraction before chamber pressures have dropped can blow a case. The PMR30 "self adjusts" depending on ammo power. Lighter stuff it is essentially straight blowback, heaver stuff is a delayed blowback. Delayed, the bbl travels rearward with the breechblock a short distance before the case extracts allowing pressure to drop a bit longer.

The pressure of the round firing creates friction between the expanded case and the chamber wall, in the hotter rounds there is enough friction to make the bbl travel in the delayed mode, lighter the bbl stays forward and no delay due to less friction. Anything like a chunk of dirt that could impede bbl movement, chamber smoothness, or spring tension variance could increase the point delayed action starts above the safe pressure level for blowback operation.

Get a round that is just below the delayed threshold you get blowback action but possibly too much pressure for the case to handle during extraction. The rear of the case leaves the chamber, pressure is still high, and the unsupported brass lets go. Boom. Could be the ammo itself just hit that one "sweet spot" that the gun can't handle, the gun itself may have not properly self adjusted, or the case could even have had a too thin section when formed and just blew out because it was too thin there.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
It likely would, yes.




I'm not talking about an out of battery ignition, I'm referencing the fact that early extraction before chamber pressures have dropped can blow a case. The PMR30 "self adjusts" depending on ammo power. Lighter stuff it is essentially straight blowback, heaver stuff is a delayed blowback. Delayed, the bbl travels rearward with the breechblock a short distance before the case extracts allowing pressure to drop a bit longer.

The pressure of the round firing creates friction between the expanded case and the chamber wall, in the hotter rounds there is enough friction to make the bbl travel in the delayed mode, lighter the bbl stays forward and no delay due to less friction. Anything like a chunk of dirt that could impede bbl movement, chamber smoothness, or spring tension variance could increase the point delayed action starts above the safe pressure level for blowback operation.

Get a round that is just below the delayed threshold you get blowback action but possibly too much pressure for the case to handle during extraction. The rear of the case leaves the chamber, pressure is still high, and the unsupported brass lets go. Boom. Could be the ammo itself just hit that one "sweet spot" that the gun can't handle, the gun itself may have not properly self adjusted, or the case could even have had a too thin section when formed and just blew out because it was too thin there.

You're are too smart for me on this subject I'm not going to lie, but I'm trying to understand. Since there's so many other documented cases of this happening, at what point do we stop blaming ammo and call it a design flaw? Because if you Google pmr-30 blows up, you're going to find a whole lot of documented cases and all with different types of ammo. Realistically, most are with the recommended CCI 40 grain.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Idratherbapickle View Post
You're are too smart for me on this subject I'm not going to lie, but I'm trying to understand. Since there's so many other documented cases of this happening, at what point do we stop blaming ammo and call it a design flaw? Because if you Google pmr-30 blows up, you're going to find a whole lot of documented cases and all with different types of ammo. Realistically, most are with the recommended CCI 40 grain.
Understanding now, thanks to KernelKrink, what's going on here, I would say the flaw is in proper instruction on the operation of the pistol, if indeed they are not providing it.

I would say it is a design "flaw" in the way an AR needs to be cleaned, but an AK does not.

The PMR-30 seems to be a complicated design, and perhaps not suitable to the casual shooter. I noted several online tutorials to "improve" its performance, some quite involved, when I searched.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:56 PM   #30
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There is a reason you don't find autoloading rimfire magnums (.22 and .17) in 200 different models like you do .22LR ones. To work, the firing pin has to be able to crush the rim. To crush the rim, the brass has to be relatively thin and soft. Thin and soft means easy to blow. Also, the small amount of recoil and gas make a true locked breech design impractical, so most are a delayed blowback system of various designs. You get blown cases on all these occasionally.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:21 PM   #31
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If he manually inserted the round and droped the slide on it, the ejector cut into the rim without detonating the primer. When fired, that weak/cut spot blew-out. { Double this problem if the rounds all had a previous primer strike.} Remember, this is .22Mag, not LR. Much more pressure involved.

As far as the rounds not firing before, the FP channel may have been dirty, or the rounds had dud zones in the primer rim.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
It likely would, yes.




I'm not talking about an out of battery ignition, I'm referencing the fact that early extraction before chamber pressures have dropped can blow a case. The PMR30 "self adjusts" depending on ammo power. Lighter stuff it is essentially straight blowback, heaver stuff is a delayed blowback. Delayed, the bbl travels rearward with the breechblock a short distance before the case extracts allowing pressure to drop a bit longer.

The pressure of the round firing creates friction between the expanded case and the chamber wall, in the hotter rounds there is enough friction to make the bbl travel in the delayed mode, lighter the bbl stays forward and no delay due to less friction. Anything like a chunk of dirt that could impede bbl movement, chamber smoothness, or spring tension variance could increase the point delayed action starts above the safe pressure level for blowback operation.

Get a round that is just below the delayed threshold you get blowback action but possibly too much pressure for the case to handle during extraction. The rear of the case leaves the chamber, pressure is still high, and the unsupported brass lets go. Boom. Could be the ammo itself just hit that one "sweet spot" that the gun can't handle, the gun itself may have not properly self adjusted, or the case could even have had a too thin section when formed and just blew out because it was too thin there.
Ok ,were are on the same page ,this explanation just is "better" for me to wrap my mind around and yes makes perfect sense. Been running with little sleep all week.
I do defiantly think it was initiated by debris of some sort it the chamber.
Mine after about 350 rds. was thoroughly cleaned and inspected and I was
amazed by how clean it was being a "rifle cartridge" in a pistol.
Really expected a lot of powder residue and there was very little. Time will tell, have a bunch of Keltecs and really have had zero problems so far.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderGod View Post
If he manually inserted the round and droped the slide on it, the ejector cut into the rim without detonating the primer. When fired, that weak/cut spot blew-out. { Double this problem if the rounds all had a previous primer strike.} Remember, this is .22Mag, not LR. Much more pressure involved.

As far as the rounds not firing before, the FP channel may have been dirty, or the rounds had dud zones in the primer rim.
Chamber pressures on the 22 LR and 22 mag are virtually the same ,around
24000 PSI.
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