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Old 02-13-2018, 01:26 AM   #71
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I am seein' all kinds of triggered on this thread. In the grand scheme of things...is it really worth fighing over? Is it?

I love all of my rifles, equally, for to have a favorite would create some problems within my safes...and I don't have the funds to create more safe spaces for my existing safes.
Triggered? What are you talking about I've probably writen less than 20 words in this thread.

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Old 02-13-2018, 01:38 AM   #72
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Then why is the piston AR being addopted in large levels still?

Your resistance to change and adaptation of the rifle is astounding.

Yes. DI works. I’ve never said it doesn’t. Neither has nails. But just because something works doesn’t mean it’s the best way to get things done or that it can’t be improved upon. A better way has been developed and it should be used. The evolution of the AR15 involves the use of a different gas system.

From somebody who owns both (I own more DI than piston). The piston is much less finicky and less picky. There is no extra wear, no less accuracy, no more complexity, and maintenance is much easier to perform. It’s all pros. The ONLY negative so the center of balance. Many of these piston AR’s are coming down in weight significantly. I’ve got two rifles, a Daniel Defense with 16” S2W barrel and LWRC IC SPR. The Daniel Defense is actually a whole 2oz heavier but feels lighter to everyone because the weight is shifted further back.

Take the weight issue how you will. More weight on the front lends itself to more stable shooting while standing and moving as well as less whip when swinging on target.

And Larry Vickers is not a “marketing brand”. He has had major influence in the shooting sports and firearms industry for years now. Even before his name became big he was influencing the market and sport.
Actually not astounding at all, AR15 (DI) enthusiast's will resist change simply because their personal AR's run well enough for them. I think it's as simple as that. Nothing else is ever taken into consideration.

That being said the days of the AR DI rifle (as a military mainstay) are slowly coming to an end, the writing is on the wall and if one choses not to read it so be it.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:30 AM   #73
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Actually not astounding at all, AR15 (DI) enthusiast's will resist change simply because their personal AR's run well enough for them. I think it's as simple as that. Nothing else is ever taken into consideration.

That being said the days of the AR DI rifle (as a military mainstay) are slowly coming to an end, the writing is on the wall and if one choses not to read it so be it.
The gun industry has been passing around the old story of what the military is supposedly about to switch to for decades in order to increase sales on a given item. In order to make it more official they usually accompany it with a few press acticles that seem to be giving away some insider information on the what the military may or may not be testing which is easy since the military tests often enough. First the military was going to switch to the Scar, then it was the ACR, then later it was calibers that were being promoted and the military was going to 6.8spc, followed by 300blk, then later 6.5 Grendel, and now the military is supposedly going to switch to 224 Valkyrie and 6.5 Creedmoor. There's always a BS rumor floating around of what the military is going to switch to next and then they never do but it sells guns.

The reasons why I like AR's have nothing to do with the military. More than any other rifle it delivers a combination of affordability, accuracy, light weight, modularity, reliability, customizability. I can build or buy an AR in any caliber I want and build it for any task I want at any price point I want and they're available and affordable. Those are the reasons I like the rifle they are the same reasons why the AR out sells it's competition by a landslide and even if the military switches rifles those things won't change. The civilian market supports the AR to such a large extent that we don't need military adoption. The AR will probably remain the rifle of choice for the vast majority of civilians for several decades disipite what the military does or doesn't do.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:05 AM   #74
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I like retro ARs, so DI in that aspect. If I were to get a non-retro AR, it would be a piston operated one like another PWS or LWRC. But given I want away from both a PWS and a LWRC, I doubt I'd go with em again.

Just prefer the piston operated rifles in general.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:44 AM   #75
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The gun industry has been passing around the old story of what the military is supposedly about to switch to for decades in order to increase sales on a given -SNIP-
Again, you are either living in blissful ignorance or intentionally missing the point hanselhd made.

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Old 02-13-2018, 11:17 AM   #76
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Again, you are either living in blissful ignorance or intentionally missing the point hanselhd made.

+1

His response proves my point. I don't care how many AR15/10's someone has, go for it. I could care less. There is a reason AR's are so cheap it's because the market is flooded with them and demand is low.

The primary reason people want to own the AR15 is because it's the Army's main combat rifle. Once that changes the demand for them will plummet.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:18 AM   #77
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Again, you are either living in blissful ignorance or intentionally missing the point hanselhd made.

I addressed the point that Hanselhd made if you don't like the way I did so then I don't know what to tell you.

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Old 02-13-2018, 11:58 AM   #78
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+1

His response proves my point. I don't care how many AR15/10's someone has, go for it. I could care less. There is a reason AR's are so cheap it's because the market is flooded with them and demand is low.

The primary reason people want to own the AR15 is because it's the Army's main combat rifle. Once that changes the demand for them will plummet.
The AR will fall out of favor one day it's ok it happens. You've got alot of rifles that are no longer popular. The next generation comes along and they don't parade around the things you've always liked which in time is inevitable. The three AR threads in the last week or two that you've played a heavy part in justs makes you come across as disgruntled about that.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:03 PM   #79
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I've been trying to find one of these for a decent price for a while, they're super neat. The DR200's aren't too hard to find, but the preban K2/AR100/MAXII ones seem to have gotten a lot more rare in the last two or three years, and I've dealt with a couple of scamming attempts over the last couple months trying to snag one under $1400.
The K2 is a great rifle and shoots well and still in use in ROK. Keep an eye on gunjoker for them and you'll get one at a decent price eventually. Strang enough after Trump won the Woo prices jumped as almost everything else fell

The ARAK-21 is a nice design and long stroke system as well. It has its own steel rails internally though. I have not been able to shoot own of these, but looking at the system it reminds be a lot of the the K2.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:14 PM   #80
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The AR will fall out of favor one day it's ok it happens. You've got alot of rifles that are no longer popular. The next generation comes along and they don't parade around the things you've always liked which in time is inevitable. The three AR threads in the last week or two that you've played a heavy part in justs makes you come across as disgruntled about that.
What you I or anyone else shoots/collects is their business, simple as that.
What I'm disgruntled about is the U.S Army's use of a problematic mediocre rifle called the M16/M4.

People in this thread are discussing the merits of adapting a Piston into the AR.

This in my mind is a good thing if properly done. Some of the early attempts at doing this had problems. However over the last 10 years it seems several Co.'s as mentioned above have reliable carbines in place. Among them HK IMHO being the best adaptation of that retrofit.

Simply put if anything can be done to make the M16 more reliable Combat weapon for the U.S. armed forces I'm for.

Simply put that's my position. If that position triggers you or any other AR/DI enthusiast well to bad, get over it.

P.S. For recreational use I see no problem with shooting AR/DI rifles.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:17 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by hansellhd View Post
What you I or anyone else shoots/collects is their business, simple as that.
What I'm disgruntled about is the U.S Army's use of a problematic mediocre rifle called the M16/M4.

People in this thread are discussing the merits of adapting a Piston into the AR.

This in my mind is a good thing if properly done. Some of the early attempts at doing this had problems. However over the last 10 years it seems several Co.'s as mentioned above have reliable carbines in place. Among them HK IMHO being the best adaptation of that retrofit.

Simply put if anything can be done to make the M16 more reliable Combat weapon for the U.S. armed forces I'm for.

Simply put that's my position. If that position triggers you or any other AR/DI enthusiast well to bad, get over it.
Yep.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:02 PM   #82
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Why do AK guys seem so intent on continuously attempting to bash the AR-15. I visit other M4 sites and nobody wastes their time bashing the AK. Do you have penis envy? Are you insecure? What is it? I have guns of all flavors, however, I don't waste my time trying to prove mine are the best. You sound like a bunch of 3rd grade boys on the playground arguing over which superhero is the best and why.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:44 PM   #83
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Anything that improves the breed I'm in favor of. The AR-18 has been reincarnated, and those revivals of it's mechanism are better than the original AR-18. Even the SA-80 was a piece of junk in it's original versions, but HK fixed almost all those problems.

I'm of the same feeling for ARs and AKs, even though there are those who'll say "rifle is fine" in either case.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:46 PM   #84
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Why do AK guys seem so intent on continuously attempting to bash the AR-15. I visit other M4 sites and nobody wastes their time bashing the AK. Do you have penis envy? Are you insecure? What is it? I have guns of all flavors, however, I don't waste my time trying to prove mine are the best. You sound like a bunch of 3rd grade boys on the playground arguing over which superhero is the best and why.
Its the AK Files what did you expect. There are more than a few on this site that are firearms guys that like and own lots of firearms, then there are the haters that don't have much if any experience on the Rifle/pistol they hate because if you read it on the internet it must be true right? It gets old around here , but it is what it is.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:53 PM   #85
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Let me interpret this for the noobs:

“Battlefield Vegas shoots the ever living shit out of their guns, full auto all the time. As such they are uniquely qualified to speak about which rifles & designs hold up to massive wear & which ones don’t. Unfortunately, for me, their facts don’t line up with my opinion so I dismiss them & want you to as well.”
That's inaccurate.

They shoot the guns in Full-auto in a specific environment. We do not know their maintenance and replacement schedule for each gun/part. We also don't know the quality of the full-auto guns they have. If anyone knows or has their list, please post it up. I don't know if I trust range guys anyway with their knowledge and experience with guns. I probably have know more about firearms than some of these jokers that work at a range.

I know there's a thread/info out there about BFLV's guns, but there's also accounts of AR15's lasting thousands of rounds without issue. Both DI and Piston. Quality of the gun and maintenance is key here.

Here's a few:

LMT DI gun with 10k rounds no cleaning, both suppressed and un-suppressed
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....little-LMT-fun

POF416 Piston gun. Barry(IraqVeteran888) ran out of ammo and the AR was still going.
https://youtu.be/7Id_soYaAm8

Bushmaster DI lasts 10k rounds on Brass ammo no problems:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bra...el-cased-ammo/
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by hansellhd View Post
What you I or anyone else shoots/collects is their business, simple as that.
What I'm disgruntled about is the U.S Army's use of a problematic mediocre rifle called the M16/M4.

People in this thread are discussing the merits of adapting a Piston into the AR.

This in my mind is a good thing if properly done. Some of the early attempts at doing this had problems. However over the last 10 years it seems several Co.'s as mentioned above have reliable carbines in place. Among them HK IMHO being the best adaptation of that retrofit.

Simply put if anything can be done to make the M16 more reliable Combat weapon for the U.S. armed forces I'm for.

Simply put that's my position. If that position triggers you or any other AR/DI enthusiast well to bad, get over it.

P.S. For recreational use I see no problem with shooting AR/DI rifles.
I don't think your strawman arguement triggers anyone.

In some respects it seems to do alot better than rifles which you're a large advocate of.

AR vs AK mud test

AR passed until the dust cover was left opened

AK failed

Below G3 mud test failed





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Old 02-13-2018, 09:58 PM   #87
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:04 PM   #88
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I’ve lived in a desert my entire life and have had rifles, rimfire’s, and shotguns fall in the sand and do fine after almost being buried instantly. Then the same rifle chokes the next time we are out just riding around in the SxS with the rifle in the rack. Sand works it’s way into the action naturally from the wind on a long day out there and shuts things down.

I’ve had a 5.45 Saiga, a couple AR’s (Daniel Defense, PSA, Colt, and BCM), a couple 10/22’s, and countless shotguns fail out there while hunting and playing around in the desert.

To the Saiga’s Defense it did not have a bullet guide installed and I was using tapco magazines which work 99% without the bullet guide. But won’t know for sure if that was it or not.


My experience has shown me that tossing something in the mud or sand doesn’t really tell much about it. Take it out on a simulated “patrol” for 8 hours in the desert and see. A somewhat windy day will make it suck worse. My last outing was a month ago and after about 4 hours of small game and varmint hunting my 10/22 malfunctioned every other shot as well as my friends. Didn’t take photos but a detailed cleaning in and out was required as it was 100% covered in sand and dirt.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:06 PM   #89
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The primary reason people want to own the AR15 is because it's the Army's main combat rifle. Once that changes the demand for them will plummet.
Price and plentiful parts certainly helps.

It's also the only semi auto rifle I can think of where the average person can buy the parts, a couple tools and assemble one in their garage that shoots MOA or better. People build bull-barreled varmint rifles out of them that group like bolt guns and the prices aren't bad at all. In the real shooting world that's nothing to sneeze at.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:11 PM   #90
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Why do AK guys seem so intent on continuously attempting to bash the AR-15.
If you want a real laugh go find the mini 14 forum, those guys are a riot.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:01 AM   #91
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I don't think your strawman arguement triggers anyone.

In some respects it seems to do alot better than rifles which you're a large advocate of.

AR vs AK mud test

AR passed until the dust cover was left opened

AK failed

Below G3 mud test failed




I don't give a FUCK how many mud test's you post up, they're meaningless.

The true combat record of your beloved AR15 over the last 50 years is inconsistent to say the least. Any honest investigation of that POS will reveal that.

I Don't give a Rat's Ass how many parts are available or how easy they are to build. My point has always been the Combat record nothing more.

The AR Fan-Boy will always deflect from a true analysis of the history of the AR platform.

I know I know, It gets the job done and it's good enough...... Well FUCK That!
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:36 AM   #92
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From what I have seen, the AR-15/M-16/M-4 does fine in a temperate environment such as here in North America, Europe, and so on. Take it to the jungle where all it does is rain or throw it in the sandbox where all it does is blow sand, it starts to have issues.

If any of us ever had to use it here in NA or Europe, chances are it would be a decent rifle.

It's not a desert warfare rifle, never has been. It finally became OK in Vietnam after guys started cleaning them and the A1 came out. But it still had some issues back in the day with mud. Jungles and deserts belong to the AK.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:49 AM   #93
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From what I have seen, the AR-15/M-16/M-4 does fine in a temperate environment such as here in North America, Europe, and so on. Take it to the jungle where all it does is rain or throw it in the sandbox where all it does is blow sand, it starts to have issues.

If any of us ever had to use it here in NA or Europe, chances are it would be a decent rifle.

It's not a desert warfare rifle, never has been. It finally became OK in Vietnam after guys started cleaning them and the A1 came out. But it still had some issues back in the day with mud. Jungles and deserts belong to the AK.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:08 AM   #94
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I don't give a FUCK how many mud test's you post up, they're meaningless.

The true combat record of your beloved AR15 over the last 50 years is inconsistent to say the least. Any honest investigation of that POS will reveal that.

I Don't give a Rat's Ass how many parts are available or how easy they are to build. My point has always been the Combat record nothing more.

The AR Fan-Boy will always deflect from a true analysis of the history of the AR platform.

I know I know, It gets the job done and it's good enough...... Well FUCK That!
^^^^ Disgruntled.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:27 AM   #95
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^^^^ Disgruntled.
. . . and continuing to ignore historical data is what?

Oh, wait, I think I found it . .

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Old 02-14-2018, 07:40 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
From what I have seen, the AR-15/M-16/M-4 does fine in a temperate environment such as here in North America, Europe, and so on. Take it to the jungle where all it does is rain or throw it in the sandbox where all it does is blow sand, it starts to have issues.

If any of us ever had to use it here in NA or Europe, chances are it would be a decent rifle.

It's not a desert warfare rifle, never has been. It finally became OK in Vietnam after guys started cleaning them and the A1 came out. But it still had some issues back in the day with mud. Jungles and deserts belong to the AK.
Actually when you start talking dirt, sand, and mud you're playing to AR's strengths because it's a sealed system the AR will outperform many rifles here including the AK, FAL, G3, M1A, VZ58, and Tavor to name a few.


AR mud test
Action completely covered in mud with the dust cover open, Pass



AR dirt test Pass
Dirt thrown in the action with the dust cover open and bolt locked back




AK mud test Fail



M1A mud test Fail



FAL mud test Fail




VZ58 Mud test Fail



Tavor X95 Mud test Fail

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Old 02-14-2018, 08:05 AM   #97
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You can throw up all the youtube "proof" you like, but youtubers - for the most part - live for page views.

These "tests" aren't gonna show anything resembling "solid data" because they're not conducted in a scientific, controlled manner ( in fact, many youtubers have been found to "finesse" their "test" videos so a certain outcome is achieved )


I mean, if you look at the numbers, some of the Youtubers who "tested" the p320 shoulda been in Vegas, considering they were beating the odds ( or mebbe they just "adjusted" their videos to give the viewers the desired result )
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:54 AM   #98
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Not to mention that InRange's mud test are basically worst case scenario and don't necessarily reflect real-life modern (World War II and later) combat scenarios. Even MAC's gauntlet pistol tests are a bit extreme as again, IMO, they're worst case scenario.

IMO, nowadays, the only way you'll get most guns to jam is if you're especially neglectful or abusive of them, or you do it on purpose. And even InRange admit that they're doing about everything in their test that you're not supposed to do with any firearm. And for those of you who defend bolt action rifles or revolvers, well, guess what? They even got a Mauser K98 to fuck up in one of their tests. If they can get a bolt action rifle to screw up, imagine how a semi-auto will probably do.

Yes, the AR in theory should do better in a mud test since it's a closed system. But so is a FN FNC, Galil Ace, FN F2000, CZ Bren 2.

But that does mean that if something does get in, it's harder to get out. And IMO, the AR-15's problem was never from the outside getting in, it's what in the rifle staying in areas where it shouldn't go. Yes, chrome coated parts and such make dealing with that easier to the point where current AR-15s in service use have decent reliability, but IMO it's still not an optimal system.

That's why we're seeing newer AR-based designs either going to piston systems or are being based on the originally unloved AR-18. Even the Tavor family are part AK (long stroke piston) and part AR-18 (multi-lug bolt, chunky rectangular bolt carrier).

Records to show that early AR-15s were horrible rifles. That was as much due to the US Army and Colt trying to sell them as maintenance free and the poor training that resulted. The AK did have better performance overall in Vietnam until the issues with the M16 were addressed, and even then I'd still give the edge to the AK.

But the AK itself is far from perfect and why it's undergone evolution. Stamped, milled, back to stamped, slant brake, caliber changes, muzzle brake, standardizing on polymer furniture/folding stocks, now with the AK-12 being built differently to maximize accuracy and performance.

Nothing's perfect, but things can always be developed to make something better.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:07 AM   #99
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You can throw up all the youtube "proof" you like, but youtubers - for the most part - live for page views.

These "tests" aren't gonna show anything resembling "solid data" because they're not conducted in a scientific, controlled manner ( in fact, many youtubers have been found to "finesse" their "test" videos so a certain outcome is achieved )


I mean, if you look at the numbers, some of the Youtubers who "tested" the p320 shoulda been in Vegas, considering they were beating the odds ( or mebbe they just "adjusted" their videos to give the viewers the desired result )
Here comes the excuse patrol.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:23 AM   #100
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Here comes the excuse patrol.

Sorry broski, but your floundering was preempted by the post just before yours . .


When the "testers" admit the "tests" are rigged, but you still insist that your "facts" are "right" . . .

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Old 02-14-2018, 10:30 AM   #101
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Again. Those mud tests are “pre-school”. I wouldn’t even call them elementary. I’ve dropped many a firearm in the sand here and the only ones that stopped working were the ones who’s barrels got plugged full of sand. And that’s usually a shotgun. Same rifles that didn’t stop working when dropped in sand stopped working later when cruising around in the desert with just wind and sand blowing onto them.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:37 AM   #102
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Sorry broski, but your floundering was preempted by the post just before yours . .


When the "testers" admit the "tests" are rigged, but you still insist that your "facts" are "right" . . .

Dam right you've got your head in the sand both you and Hanselhd. Other's have been posting data upon data for 3 threads now which has for the most part destroyed the positions put forth against the AR. All you've got to support your strawman arguement is a meme how weak.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:45 AM   #103
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Dam right you've got your head in the sand both you and Hanselhd. Other's have been posting data upon data for 3 threads now which has for the most part destroyed the positions put forth against the AR. All you've got to support your strawman arguement is a meme how weak.
“Data”... yeah. And has been previously stated. You take the 500 peice puzzle picture, then throw out 497 pieces and say we’re done when you put 3 together.

Anyone else’s “data” is blatantly ignored. You piece together SELECTIVE “data” as you called it to justify your ends.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:56 AM   #104
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Dam right you've got your head in the sand both you and Hanselhd. Other's have been posting data upon data for 3 threads now which has for the most part destroyed the positions put forth against the AR. All you've got to support your strawman arguement is a meme how weak.
Wow, a "meme" is it?

Looks like a comparison to me.


Anyhoo, you apparently missed hanselhd's and my position: The U.S. military has been hampered with a shitty rifle for over 50 years. That the US. Marines have "seen the light" and are transitioning to something else seems lost on some of you.

That many of the world's forces are either transitioning away, or just not using them in the first place seems also lost on you.



We've said nothing about "YOU" owning whatever rifle you want, just that the US Government has been keeping our boys ( and girls ) equipped with a substandard rifle for decades.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:59 AM   #105
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“Data”... yeah. And has been previously stated. You take the 500 peice puzzle picture, then throw out 497 pieces and say we’re done when you put 3 together.

Anyone else’s “data” is blatantly ignored. You piece together SELECTIVE “data” as you called it to justify your ends.
But you don't seem to be able to counter anything anyone else says because you don't have anything to point to that proves your position.
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