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Old 08-11-2018, 10:51 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by notasheeple View Post
For a first time shotgun based on the info, I wouldn't rule out a 20 gauge.

Or both 12 and 20

A 14 year old is likely to grow a great deal in the next couple of years. Unless you feel he would just plain prefer to have a 20 over a 12 I wouldn't get him something he is fairly likely to out grow in the not too distant future. I remember getting a really nice hunting jacket in medium for my 15th birthday which was too small by my 16th. A large would have fit just fine until I started seriously pumping iron at 23!
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:11 AM   #37
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I started with a 20ga side by side. My dad would sometimes let me carry his 12ga 870.

My.02 from about 28 years of shooting and hunting would be a Mossberg 500 combo pack. That pack comes with a rifled barrel and sometimes its scoped. $300-$350. Done deal.
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Old 08-12-2018, 08:33 AM   #38
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Waterfowl hunting with steel shot he should get a shotgun with an over overbored barrel with adjustable chokes a must have,mossberg 835 is what i use...
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:05 PM   #39
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My first firearm was a Remington 870 Super Magnum Synthetic. I got it in 2005 when I was in 8th grade and it cost $277.00. I think something like that would be perfect for your grandson, as its not super expensive, he can run up to 3 1/2" shells for hunting, but also 2 3/4" shells for target shooting, and there's no gas or inertia system to adjust for different loads.

I looked at the Remington, Mossberg, and Benelli Nova. I felt like the Mossbergs didn't balance as well as the aluminum receiver made them front heavy. The Benelli was nice but the rotating bolt is not as smooth as the other two. The Remington just seemed to fit better.

The comment about discharging when dropped is ridiculous, 870s have had crossbolt safeties for the past 7 decades since they went into production. Or is this another thing like the 700 lawsuit where people were filing down their sears to lighten the trigger and then acted like it was Remington's fault when they ND'd because there wasn't enough engagement? Either way I've not heard of or experienced it.

I liked my first one so much that I bought a second one in 2010 with the XS Shotrail sights for an HD type gun (though I like the sights for hunting with slugs too). It too has been reliable to a T.

I get that some people don't like new manufacturing methods, but the raving about the MIM extractors is way overblown. IDK what kind of conditions you guys are getting FTEs or breaking extractors under, but I have about 6600 rounds through the first one, and 3500 through the second-primarily slugs and buckshot.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:33 PM   #40
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fuck remington and mossburge. They all suck now anyway.

Save a few more bucks and find a winchester model 12. or a 25 same gun basicly for much less $.

Don't start a new guy out with an auto loader. And don't go cheap, go old school. You will have no regrets in the long run.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:50 PM   #41
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Fuck Remington...but go old school...??
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:20 PM   #42
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New England Firearms break action is a great starter gun.
As much as I love my Remington 870, I can't recommend them. As much as I dislike the Mossbergs, I must recommend them.
Boom. Although I'm trying to warm up to a Mossy.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #43
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Fuck Remington...but go old school...??
you missed the now part. my dad gimmie an 870 a few years back when he found out I didn't have a shotgun for dove season. Customer didn't have the money for the bill and offered the shotgun. i ended up with it and what pos it was. about 10 years old, less than a box through it. Get this, a pump shotgun that jams. all the damn time. You ain't getting 3 shots outta it with out jamming. I moved it along quick. I ended up with another 870. Hits 6 FEET to the right. It was new. I got rid of it too. Then a .410 mossburge. really not that bad for a novelty type gun. I think my friend has it now. I don't recall that clearly. Don't matter. working the action you would think a freight train was passing by, is how clunky it is. Then there is the 3rd round situation. One round in the chamber, fine. two rounds in the tube all nice and legal for bird shooting. Won't chamber the second round.

If I only load one in the mag then it'll feed. Same for 2.5" and 3" shells.

get a bit closer to the second ww is what I mean by old school. cause that cookie cutter shit they put out now ain't worth a fuck.

I'm really getting at, get the kid a cheap ass gun if he's never going to use it or simply fugg it up. If he's dedicated then get something of some actual quality. Something that works. Will stay working and is worth something that won't go down in value.

I hunt dove and quail with an old Citori now. It does pretty fair. Only reason I don't use my dads Browning is cause it's in cali and I'm in texas.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:14 AM   #44
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"The comment about discharging when dropped is ridiculous, 870s have had crossbolt safeties for the past 7 decades since they went into production"....


No................it's not ridiculous.


Again............................................. .....................Cross bolt safeties on shotguns immobilize the trigger, NOT THE FIRING PIN, which can move while a shotgun is ON SAFETY, and reach the back of a shell when the gun is dropped just the right way/bumped hard enough, causing the gun to discharge.




Did you check out the link/discussion?

Inertia discharge is a fact.............it happens.............has happened.

Is a discharge going to occur every single time you drop/bump the gun against something........no. Or even a few times.........probably not.

But it has happened, and you have to consider inertia discharge in terms of gun safety when handling a shotgun.



Stating the facts isn't trashing these guns, one of my first guns was a 870 12 Ga. WM from my father when I was a teenager, and I have 3 remingtons now about 50 yrs. later. I've love the guns, and we go way back..

It's not a good idea to drop/bump any firearm into anything, but shotguns aren't like late model handguns where in an effort to make them safer, late model handguns either place a slab of metal in front of the firing when the gun is on safety, like my Beretta 92 compact, or metal between the hammer and the firing pin on my revolvers, where you have to pull the trigger to fire the gun.


The crossbolt safeties on shotguns address immobilizing trigger when the shotgun is on safety, NOT the firing pin, like we've done to make handguns safer and more resistant to firing when dropped.



Inertia discharge, and/or the possibility of an intertia discharge occuring from dropping a shotgun is a FACT, and the laws of physics, and how crossbolt safeties work, explain why and how it can happen, and there's nothing ridiculous about it.





You can bet your life on what I've just said.

Last edited by AllTen; 08-13-2018 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:54 PM   #45
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For your son's safety, and to protect his life, and in fact, to protect the life of anybody considering the danger of inertia discharge from dropping a gun, ANY gun, recognize that danger, no matter what.



Don't trust that a gun won't go off if you drop it, don't trust drop tests, don't trust the manufacturer guarantee that a gun won't go off that way, because they won't do your dying for you if they're wrong.



Just do your best not to drop the gun.



Here's a link regarding a gun that had passed its drop tests, folks believed it was safer than it really was, and so did the manufacturer.



It wasn't



This is a link to a video showing how these folks were wrong, and that the gun could, and would go off despite the protests from the manufacturer that the gun was safe from dropping.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA



The link provided visual proof of this gun going off due to intertia discharge from dropping the gun forcing everybody to face up to the danger.



What does a link about a handgun/semi auto got to do with shotguns w/crossbolt safeties?



A shotgun can discharge w/the crossbolt safety on, from dropping it.



Forgive me if you already know this, in which case, I'm preaching to the Choir.

Last edited by AllTen; 08-13-2018 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:59 PM   #46
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As others have said, Mossberg 500. But if you want to save some money and want a crossbar safety? Maverick 88 which is basically a Mossberg 500 with pinned furniture.
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:09 PM   #47
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My favorite shotgun is a Mossberg 500. It's inexpensive and effective. The US Army's M500 is nothing but a Mossberg model 500. That said, I have a couple Remington 870's that I love. Either will be fine.
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:18 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTen View Post
"The comment about discharging when dropped is ridiculous, 870s have had crossbolt safeties for the past 7 decades since they went into production"....


No................it's not ridiculous.


Again............................................. .....................Cross bolt safeties on shotguns immobilize the trigger, NOT THE FIRING PIN, which can move while a shotgun is ON SAFETY, and reach the back of a shell when the gun is dropped just the right way/bumped hard enough, causing the gun to discharge.




Did you check out the link/discussion?

Inertia discharge is a fact.............it happens.............has happened.

Is a discharge going to occur every single time you drop/bump the gun against something........no. Or even a few times.........probably not.

But it has happened, and you have to consider inertia discharge in terms of gun safety when handling a shotgun.



Stating the facts isn't trashing these guns, one of my first guns was a 870 12 Ga. WM from my father when I was a teenager, and I have 3 remingtons now about 50 yrs. later. I've love the guns, and we go way back..

It's not a good idea to drop/bump any firearm into anything, but shotguns aren't like late model handguns where in an effort to make them safer, late model handguns either place a slab of metal in front of the firing when the gun is on safety, like my Beretta 92 compact, or metal between the hammer and the firing pin on my revolvers, where you have to pull the trigger to fire the gun.


The crossbolt safeties on shotguns address immobilizing trigger when the shotgun is on safety, NOT the firing pin, like we've done to make handguns safer and more resistant to firing when dropped.



Inertia discharge, and/or the possibility of an intertia discharge occuring from dropping a shotgun is a FACT, and the laws of physics, and how crossbolt safeties work, explain why and how it can happen, and there's nothing ridiculous about it.





You can bet your life on what I've just said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTen View Post
For your son's safety, and to protect his life, and in fact, to protect the life of anybody considering the danger of inertia discharge from dropping a gun, ANY gun, recognize that danger, no matter what.



Don't trust that a gun won't go off if you drop it, don't trust drop tests, don't trust the manufacturer guarantee that a gun won't go off that way, because they won't do your dying for you if they're wrong.



Just do your best not to drop the gun.



Here's a link regarding a gun that had passed its drop tests, folks believed it was safer than it really was, and so did the manufacturer.



It wasn't



This is a link to a video showing how these folks were wrong, and that the gun could, and would go off despite the protests from the manufacturer that the gun was safe from dropping.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA



The link provided visual proof of this gun going off due to intertia discharge from dropping the gun forcing everybody to face up to the danger.



What does a link about a handgun/semi auto got to do with shotguns w/crossbolt safeties?



A shotgun can discharge w/the crossbolt safety on, from dropping it.



Forgive me if you already know this, in which case, I'm preaching to the Choir.
The...spring loaded firing pin?

I mean I suppose; its highly unlikely. Actually that's exactly how the newer Bulgy AK firing pins are designed and their safeties don't disable the firing pin either-so the likelihood is about the same
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:03 AM   #49
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I can't speak to the AK based guns, I'll defer to the folks who work on these/gunsmiths familiar w/those.

On the tube fed shotguns, yes, even the spring loaded ones. Enough force can defeat the spring tension on the firing pin, and it can go off.



The video shows the gun being dropped and falling.



Inertia means that objects at rest tend to stay at rest, and if they're moving, they tend to continue to move the same way unless acted upon by some force.



The trigger on the handgun in the linked video, is also spring loaded/under spring tension, and despite that, the gun is traveling at enough speed as it falls where/when it contacts the ground falling backwards, that enough energy is transferred to the trigger to overcome that spring tension and causes the trigger to continue moving in the same direction even though the gun has stopped at the floor.

The trigger continues to move downward and fires the gun.



Same thing happens if you hit a brick wall while driving your car at a high speed, which is despite the crash stopping the car at the brick wall, you, inside the car, because of inertia, will continue to move in the direction of the windshield and dash, unless you're seat belted in.

If you crash into a brick wall at 60 mph, the brick wall stops the car, but you inside the car will continue to travel 60 mph until you hit the dash or the windshield if you're not wearing your seatbelts.



On the shotgun, even w/the crossbolt safety immobilizing the trigger, enough force on impact from dropping the gun can transfer enough energy to the firing pin to overcome that spring tension and cause it to fire.

Last edited by AllTen; 08-14-2018 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:44 PM   #50
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Dramagram..............



Please accept my apology for taking up so much room in your thread.



The only excuse I can give you is that I could sense your pride in your grandson, and you're talking about him reminds me of my youngest son, whose 20.

My son doesn't hunt, but he's gotten real interested in gun ownership, so I'm going real slow training him to properly handle firearms.

I grill him till he now finishes my sentences on the safe way to handle firearms.

I've been working w/him for quite a long time w/his handling only unloaded firearms untill he shows me he can protect himself.



I could not bear losing my son to an accidental/negligent discharge.



Good luck w/whatever you end up getting.
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