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Old 03-24-2019, 08:06 PM   #1
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Default Vepr12 vs KS12

Iím in a bit of a pickle. Iím torn between another V12 before they dry up or trying Kalashnikov USAís KS-12T. And later, the Komrad.

As AK shotgun enthusiasts, Iím sure the knee jerk reaction is Vepr but Iím one of the few of us that believes the Saiga style adjustable gas block and no magwell is the superior design. The Vepr is advertised as ďself regulatingĒ, but that really just means ALL THE GAS ALL THE TIME, small parts be damned. Plus the unsupported plastic magwell isnít the most robust design, nor is the dust cover rail; both of which can be replaced with stouter counterparts, but to have a well designed, long lasting AK 12ga. from the factory would be a dream come true...

As such, I believe an AK shotgun with an actual adjustable gas setting will be the longer lasting gun with constant buck and slug use, provided that the metallurgy is there. And thatís the real question with K-USA. Will those trunnions be crumbling and those rivets be shearing at 1,000 rounds? Do we have any word on some volume testing or do I need to be the guinea pig? At the same price of a Vepr, itís a risk. They certainly seem to have confidence in their product, buuuuuttt so does Century...

Lastly, Iím certainly rooting for any American company that puts in the effort and believes in their product. Iím sure we all want them to do well, but weíve been burned by every American AK so far, except maaaaaayyyybeee PSA. But Iíd love a factory supported AK shotgun thatíll be there for the long run and supported by an enthusiastic manufacturer....

If you can make sense of my rambling......Thoughts?
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:30 PM   #2
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I'd go Vepr. What are you going to be doing with it to break a magwell off? Hell, it's a fiber reinforced plastic. Unless you are scrambling through chicagistan and throwing it out the back of a truck it's not going to break off. Or you could just copy it and mill one out of aluminum.

I have 2 saiga AKs. One is a legion S410 with a fixed gas system. It runs great. The other couldn't cycle a high brass slug for anything let alone any other load. The adjustable gas system didn't do squat because the build and QC we're so terrible. Took me weeks of work and testing to get it to cycle anything.

I have probably somewhere around 500rnds through my Vepr. It has a little paint worn off the carrier and nothing else looks different or worse for the wear. Only normal wear/paint being worn off. I mostly run heavy trap loads in it but the occasional high brass and slug.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:20 AM   #3
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I would go with the vepr too. If your running slugs and OO, thats what its set up for anyways. Itll run it till the cows come home and then some. Plus, if you get sick of it, I got a feelin you will be able to get all your money back and then some should you decide to sell it a year from now.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:52 PM   #4
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I would go with the vepr too. If your running slugs and OO, thats what its set up for anyways. Itll run it till the cows come home and then some. Plus, if you get sick of it, I got a feelin you will be able to get all your money back and then some should you decide to sell it a year from now.
The Vepr is set up to run low brass ammo. That means it is hammering itself with buck and slugs. If it was set up to run buck and slugs then the low brass ammo wouldnít function.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:35 PM   #5
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Another vote for the Vepr 12.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:45 PM   #6
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That’s my problem. My Vepr runs like a sewing machine with everything. So slug hulls eject to the next continent. I can’t imagine that’s terribly gentle on that rotating bolt head or the rear trunnion...

To my other point, I put an aluminum magwell on it (the maglatch pin is a fucking nightmare for anyone making the attempt) and snapped the ears off the polymer one with dreadful ease so make sure you’re committed if you decide to go for it. With the screw at the front of the magwell in place, the durability of the rear ears shouldn’t be an issue but the point remains...

With Kalashnikov USA, the KR-9 seems to be getting good reviews other than the dust cover issue, which they seemed more than willing to rectify. Evl even spoke highly of the KS-12 as far as initial fit and finish were concerned. I just need someone to validate their construction. I wish Rob would do a 5,000 test on a shotgun....

If we’re being honest, this is one of those, “I want to believe,” threads. Just too skeptical to make the jump... I’ll likely end up with another Vepr regardless....
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Old 04-07-2019, 09:46 PM   #7
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My V12 would hiccup on low brass now and again. I read it needs to be broken in with hi brass. Well I ran a bunch of federal 00 buck and federal truball slugs (all reduced recoil)
And now it runs low brass fine. All my hulls were ejected in a nice pile about 7 feet from me.

The only time my hulls got launched into orbit is when I ran Remington sluggers 7/8 ounce slugs

I love my V12.
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Old 04-07-2019, 10:15 PM   #8
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Old 04-08-2019, 08:27 PM   #9
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VEPR
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Old 04-10-2019, 10:46 PM   #10
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My .92

Kalashnikov USA is a birthing out of the gates company, that only had importation rights to Izhmash rifles for several years before sanctions.

They are asking nearly $1,000 for a Kalash style shotgun.
I sure as f*** would not pay that for a breaking out of the gate company
that sold vaporware for 2 years. I'd be leary of how long they will remain
in business, before buying their products. Just my 02

I would also factor in the cost of mags, and all that jazzz and look into
the magless Bullpop shotguns which hold far more, and are reliable for less.

Just an opinion, but if Kalash style is desired, VEPR no doubt.
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Old 04-10-2019, 11:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
My .92

Kalashnikov USA is a birthing out of the gates company, that only had importation rights to Izhmash rifles for several years before sanctions.

They are asking nearly $1,000 for a Kalash style shotgun.
I sure as f*** would not pay that for a breaking out of the gate company
that sold vaporware for 2 years. I'd be leary of how long they will remain
in business, before buying their products. Just my 02

I would also factor in the cost of mags, and all that jazzz and look into
the magless Bullpop shotguns which hold far more, and are reliable for less.

Just an opinion, but if Kalash style is desired, VEPR no doubt.
With a grand total of 2 niche products. And only selling product a handful at a time. They really aren't in a great place yet.
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Old 04-10-2019, 11:51 PM   #12
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I say for the time being you might as well get another vepr given that is a limited stock, because the KS12 are still being produced so there wont be a shortage anytime soon, plus the veprs will only get more expensive overtime.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:09 AM   #13
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go with the Lynx 12 and break it in, that what my son did.

good price and the Csspecs Saiga-12 10 round mags work great in them
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:18 AM   #14
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VEPR12 but to tell you the truth I shoot my JM Pro more.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:31 AM   #15
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If you haven't considered what $1,000 can buy you.....
Allow me to bend your ear a little.

https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/DP12

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Old 04-11-2019, 03:17 PM   #16
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Well, I emailed K-USA, asked a few questions about the KS12’s manufacture and got a response the next day with an answer to one question, a link to some reviews, and assurance that the KS12 is better than the Saiga. I responded with thanks and reiterated my questions with no response. A week went by and I sent another, thanking him for his time and reiterating my questions again in case my previous email had been buried under other business.. No response since....

So I emailed SDS and that guy responded in 9 minutes. So after reading and watching all the info on the Lynx 12, and swallowing my apprehension with recoil buffers, I picked up one of those. The first quick range session consisted of 20 S&B buckshot rounds and 20 federal slugs on the “off” gas setting. No malfunctions there. Then, still on the off setting, I tried Federal bulk 7 1/2. Of course, it wouldn’t cycle the first round. So I set the gas to low and ran the remaining 99 in the pack with no stoppage. Cleaned it and noticed no strange wear so I’m going to cross my fingers and run it til it breaks. Might grab another if it makes it to 1,000 with no glaring issues...

I can’t shake the Kel-Tec stigma and I base that on zero personal experience. The DP-12 seems cool but the AK shotgun is beloved to me.

I’m also one of the few who thinks the 590m is a great idea, so I’d take everything I say with a grain of salt...
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:13 PM   #17
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Well, I emailed K-USA, asked a few questions about the KS12ís manufacture and got a response the next day with an answer to one question, a link to some reviews, and assurance that the KS12 is better than the Saiga. I responded with thanks and reiterated my questions with no response. A week went by and I sent another, thanking him for his time and reiterating my questions again in case my previous email had been buried under other business.. No response since....

So I emailed SDS and that guy responded in 9 minutes. So after reading and watching all the info on the Lynx 12, and swallowing my apprehension with recoil buffers, I picked up one of those. The first quick range session consisted of 20 S&B buckshot rounds and 20 federal slugs on the ďoffĒ gas setting. No malfunctions there. Then, still on the off setting, I tried Federal bulk 7 1/2. Of course, it wouldnít cycle the first round. So I set the gas to low and ran the remaining 99 in the pack with no stoppage. Cleaned it and noticed no strange wear so Iím going to cross my fingers and run it til it breaks. Might grab another if it makes it to 1,000 with no glaring issues...

I canít shake the Kel-Tec stigma and I base that on zero personal experience. The DP-12 seems cool but the AK shotgun is beloved to me.

Iím also one of the few who thinks the 590m is a great idea, so Iíd take everything I say with a grain of salt...
The Lynx is a true steal for the price! Better quality than the Saiga was during their best days.

And the 590m is a great idea. 100 years ago people argued for the revolver the way people argue for tube fed today. Someday they will look just as silly as the people that argued for the revolver... Glad I wonít be among them.
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Old 04-11-2019, 09:34 PM   #18
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Kel Tec? Did somebody say Kel Tec??

FFS, I don't understand how they are still in business with the utter crap they build.

Problem is with their CHUD gun, and the DP12, once you are out of rounds, you have 2 weeks to get shot at, before you are fully reloaded.

Nothing but a novelty, or for use by the next New Zealand shooter who empties his guns and they throws them down.

Saiga? Vepr? Either one is a good choice, still not sold on the Chinese wanna bes, and in the end, generally you get what you pay for.

Live cheap, die cheap.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:08 PM   #19
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Yep, the Chinese stigma along with the price on top of the Saiga stigma is a bad combination. I bet if you drop $400 on a Lynx it would really surprise you just how well they are built. SDS should be screaming what the Lynx is from the roof tops. Absolute steal even at $500...
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:07 PM   #20
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The Vepr is set up to run low brass ammo. That means it is hammering itself with buck and slugs. If it was set up to run buck and slugs then the low brass ammo wouldnít function.
Absolutely incorrect. They say they can run anything out of the box but that is just not true, They will not, repeat will not hammer themselves to death with slugs and buckshot, Hell, the whole reason there are so many "fixes" out there (softer springs, pucks, guide rods) for these things is to get them to run light loads. Slugs and buckshot run just fine.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:20 PM   #21
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Problem is with their CHUD gun, and the DP12, once you are out of rounds, you have 2 weeks to get shot at, before you are fully reloaded.
LOL.....
Only a Rookie would wait to reload with wide open feed ports.

You can reload on the fly constantly, without a mag change and keep it fully
loaded while in the fight. Unlike the magazine feeders , where ya gotta
carry gargantuan mags.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:23 AM   #22
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When I first got my Vepr 12 I had issues (like everyone else) running birdshot but I did my research beforehand and knew that so I bought A TON of S&B 00 buck. Its dirty but its exceptionally cheap... usually 30-40 cents a round. Anyways I shot a good 300 or so rounds of that and like 60 slugs through it and that made it cycle a bit better on birdshot (which Im aware is more than needed.) I will say this, I did have an issue where my reciprocating dustcover thing broke up as I believe it was welded on wrong but that was fixed and no issue since. I feel this isnt particularly up your alley, but I built it to handle heavy loads and it seems to do well with a couple easy mods. All in all the Vepr 12 has outstanding build quality and with just a slightly lighter spring, guide rod or puck is all it takes to run birdshot reliably from what I've heard. It lacks in the magazine department, as a heads up. Csspec makes fantastic magazines but drums are massive and harder to come by (outside of the SGM's iffy ones.) Also the auto last round bolt hold open is fantastic. Its definitely easier to make this a competition gun than any of the others with its functioning BHO, magwell and build quality. Fun fact: you can use Saiga 12 5rnd magazines in the Vepr 12.

I also have a Saiga 12, which also has a harder time cycling birdshot (your mileage may vary in this department.) However from what I've read and am going to be testing, a gas plug change is about all it takes to run birdshot fairly reliably if you have "good" gas ports. I'm certain the same "fixes" that you can do to the Vepr 12 would likely apply here too. Magazines are very easy to come by as are drums. Promag's 15rnd drum is small for what it holds and with a little tweaking its great. Note: Roll crimps dont always fit (I've had a batch of S&B 00 buck fit, but the next batch did not) and 3" do not fit either. Saiga 12s are a bit riskier of a purchase due to the spotty build quality. The manual bolt hold open sucks.If you want to change the FCG and keep your BHO, you have to modify new hammers as it takes up space to the side of it. It also has a reputation of failing and locking up guns when it fails.

I almost got a SDS Lynx however I came across a Saiga 12 which was higher on my list. I've read mostly good things on it but a couple bad things; dustcovers flying off comes off per a couple people and stovepipes which honestly is probably operator error. Its built in the Chinese factory where they allegedly make Type 56s, so thats a plus. It is also half the price of the KS-12 however, and you can sometimes get deals where you get spare magazines with it. I would recommend more research on this one as it has a lot of potential.

As far as the KS-12 goes, the only draw for me is that you wouldnt have to worry 922r, should that be a concern for you. Also I've heard that the fit and finish is very good.



Personally I'd get the Vepr12 due to the collectability and build quality and just stack Csspec magazines.
Just my .02

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Old 04-15-2019, 01:33 AM   #23
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Absolutely incorrect. They say they can run anything out of the box but that is just not true, They will not, repeat will not hammer themselves to death with slugs and buckshot, Hell, the whole reason there are so many "fixes" out there (softer springs, pucks, guide rods) for these things is to get them to run light loads. Slugs and buckshot run just fine.
It absolutely is true and they absolutely hammer themselves with higher power ammo. If they didn’t set them up to run low brass then they wouldn’t work with it even with the factory 5rd mag. A spring, piston or rod wouldn’t be enough to fix it either... Mine ran low brass just fine right out of the box. Higher mag capacity can complicate low brass function and since the factory only designed them for up to 10rd mags I can see a need for some tweaking. Go get a Saiga-12 and try to run low brass on the high brass setting. Not going to cycle. Keep in mind as well that the factory high brass setting in a Saiga-12 is over gassed for a majority of high brass even but still not going to run low brass there. There isn’t a spring, gas plug, piston, rod, bolt and hammer re profiling/polishing job, etc, on the market or even a combination of all working together that will make a Saiga-12 run low brass on the high brass setting either... I promise you the Vepr-12 is over gassed with high power ammo...

Here is something else you can do. Get a Saiga-12 and set the gas plug to the high brass setting. Get your Vepr-12 out. Get you some hot ammo and fire it from both. You will notice the Vepr-12 will kick harder. That’s because the carrier in the Vepr will be slamming the rear trunnions harder. Give it a try...

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Old 04-15-2019, 01:41 AM   #24
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LOL.....
Only a Rookie would wait to reload with wide open feed ports.

You can reload on the fly constantly, without a mag change and keep it fully
loaded while in the fight. Unlike the magazine feeders , where ya gotta
carry gargantuan mags.
That’s funny because in Vietnam they were using a decent number of tubefed shotguns and the general consensus was they wished they were detachable mag fed. The military even put out requests for manufactures to provide a detachable magfed shotgun to replace the obsolete tube. That was about 50 years ago... That’s because reaching once grabbing a mag for a full load is way faster and easier to do than trying to keep a gun topped off one at a time while under pressure. In a fight with a pump if you are reaching for individual rounds or even a mag you can’t pump your gun while doing so. Best to do it in one reach for 10 or more rounds than individually for each round.

I’ll say it again, someday in the near future people will realize that claiming the revolver, I mean tube fed, as being superior was pretty silly...

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Old 04-15-2019, 01:53 AM   #25
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For what its worth, my Vepr-12's hammer has some wear on the back of it which lines up with FCG parts. It leads me to believe its getting slammed down by the heavier loads I run through it. I dont have a good camera and the lighting isnt great but the one wear mark near the spring is actually recessed a tad, not just paint wear. This in part is what sparked me to mod it to run heavier loads better.
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:52 AM   #26
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That’s funny because in Vietnam they were using a decent number of tubefed shotguns and the general consensus was they wished they were detachable mag fed. The military even put out requests for manufactures to provide a detachable magfed shotgun to replace the obsolete tube. That was about 50 years ago... That’s because reaching once grabbing a mag for a full load is way faster and easier to do than trying to keep a gun topped off one at a time while under pressure. In a fight with a pump if you are reaching for individual rounds or even a mag you can’t pump your gun while doing so. Best to do it in one reach for 10 or more rounds than individually for each round.

I’ll say it again, someday in the near future people will realize that claiming the revolver, I mean tube fed, as being superior was pretty silly...
Oh see that's where I messed up I suppose.

I wasn't thinking of Jungle warfare against armed battalians in unknown territory where magazines are more ideal.
I was thinking of a defense scenario for the average American stateside in familiar territory.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:54 PM   #27
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Oh see that's where I messed up I suppose.

I wasn't thinking of Jungle warfare against armed battalians in unknown territory where magazines are more ideal.
I was thinking of a defense scenario for the average American stateside in familiar territory.
Even for the most highly trained and experienced there is no such thing as familiar territory in a defense scenario. In a stressful situation the less you have to do the better. A reliable semi will more often than not be more reliable than a human operated pump. Getting to pull the trigger 10 - 20 times and reloading a mag once will more often than not be more reliable than loading a tube as you go.

Tell me... Would you rather have a pistol that takes a detachable mag and holds 15 rounds or would you rather have a tube fed pistol that hold 6 or 8 but you can top it off as you go? I betting you want the 15rds that lets you keep both your hands on the gun at the ready without fumbling around for individual rounds to load one at a time.
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Udo51 View Post
When I first got my Vepr 12 I had issues (like everyone else) running birdshot but I did my research beforehand and knew that so I bought A TON of S&B 00 buck. Its dirty but its exceptionally cheap... usually 30-40 cents a round. Anyways I shot a good 300 or so rounds of that and like 60 slugs through it and that made it cycle a bit better on birdshot (which Im aware is more than needed.) I will say this, I did have an issue where my reciprocating dustcover thing broke up as I believe it was welded on wrong but that was fixed and no issue since. I feel this isnt particularly up your alley, but I built it to handle heavy loads and it seems to do well with a couple easy mods. All in all the Vepr 12 has outstanding build quality and with just a slightly lighter spring, guide rod or puck is all it takes to run birdshot reliably from what I've heard. It lacks in the magazine department, as a heads up. Csspec makes fantastic magazines but drums are massive and harder to come by (outside of the SGM's iffy ones.) Also the auto last round bolt hold open is fantastic. Its definitely easier to make this a competition gun than any of the others with its functioning BHO, magwell and build quality. Fun fact: you can use Saiga 12 5rnd magazines in the Vepr 12.

I also have a Saiga 12, which also has a harder time cycling birdshot (your mileage may vary in this department.) However from what I've read and am going to be testing, a gas plug change is about all it takes to run birdshot fairly reliably if you have "good" gas ports. I'm certain the same "fixes" that you can do to the Vepr 12 would likely apply here too. Magazines are very easy to come by as are drums. Promag's 15rnd drum is small for what it holds and with a little tweaking its great. Note: Roll crimps dont always fit (I've had a batch of S&B 00 buck fit, but the next batch did not) and 3" do not fit either. Saiga 12s are a bit riskier of a purchase due to the spotty build quality. The manual bolt hold open sucks.If you want to change the FCG and keep your BHO, you have to modify new hammers as it takes up space to the side of it. It also has a reputation of failing and locking up guns when it fails.

I almost got a SDS Lynx however I came across a Saiga 12 which was higher on my list. I've read mostly good things on it but a couple bad things; dustcovers flying off comes off per a couple people and stovepipes which honestly is probably operator error. Its built in the Chinese factory where they allegedly make Type 56s, so thats a plus. It is also half the price of the KS-12 however, and you can sometimes get deals where you get spare magazines with it. I would recommend more research on this one as it has a lot of potential.

As far as the KS-12 goes, the only draw for me is that you wouldnt have to worry 922r, should that be a concern for you. Also I've heard that the fit and finish is very good.



Personally I'd get the Vepr12 due to the collectability and build quality and just stack Csspec magazines.
Just my .02

A lot of what you said mirrors my finding except my V12 runs low brass bird shot out of the box. It does have to be 3.25DRAM though. Mine has been perfectly reliable with zero issues and no funny wear.

My Saiga on the other hand is a basket case. Granted it's a 20ga not the 12. I had to do everything in the book to get it to run high brass wide open and to cycle 3" slugs on "closed". Now it runs Remington (an only Remington for some reason) trap loads then close it back off to position 1 to run 3" high brass slugs. I was drilling out gas ports, milling gas blocks, springs, pucks, gas adjusters, you name it. If is still borderline unreliable.

I also have a DDI-12, the same thing as the Lynx and the cheetah 12. It runs fine and is similar to what it'll run out of the box as the Vepr but in comparison the build quality sucks, finish is way nicer than the Saiga but that's not hard, but that dust cover is made from recycled beer cans. It's thin and terrible and eventually (couple mags) gets bent up and come out of the front trunnion jamming everything up. Half the time I run it without a dust cover.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:44 PM   #29
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Tell me... Would you rather have a pistol that takes a detachable mag and holds 15 rounds or would you rather have a tube fed pistol that hold 6 or 8 but you can top it off as you go? I betting you want the 15rds that lets you keep both your hands on the gun at the ready without fumbling around for individual rounds to load one at a time.
Apples VS Oranges comparison of small cartridges VS large shotgun shells and dexterity

With all my years of training, if one can't defend their home with 16 rounds of buckshot
Hell anyone would call that the laughing stock of the gun community.

With that being said, I guess one should never trust in anything concealable for defense
purposes as it has far less power, and less rounds..LOL

Merits of home defense are there for all options, it's all subjective at the end of the day.
We're not in Vietnam or Syria situations.
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
Apples VS Oranges comparison of small cartridges VS large shotgun shells and dexterity

With all my years of training, if one can't defend their home with 16 rounds of buckshot
Hell anyone would call that the laughing stock of the gun community.

With that being said, I guess one should never trust in anything concealable for defense
purposes as it has far less power, and less rounds..LOL

Merits of home defense are there for all options, it's all subjective at the end of the day.
We're not in Vietnam or Syria situations.
I can clearly and repeatedly see all your years of training didnít teach you much...
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Old 04-15-2019, 09:07 PM   #31
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I can clearly and repeatedly see all your years of training didn’t teach you much...
......cool story

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Old 04-20-2019, 08:34 AM   #32
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Moderately paying attention to the news shows multiple attackers hitting houses once a week... now factor in how the media hides stuff... standard cap mags are critical. If the bad guys are tough, or you are a bad shot under stress, five guys hitting your house might easily require two or more mags
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:59 PM   #33
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you like vanila, i like chocolate, easy peasy you get what you like i get what i like....

i dont know why you would choose an american gun over the original.... get the original, then budget better and buy the others next. easy peasy again! solving problems!!!

think of all hte crap american made aks in the past 20 years. or at least not "collector grade" then think of all the foreign made guns the gov has banned. doesnt seem like a hard decision. and dont let teh veprs in stock nature bug you, all hte cheap copies have satisfied the only partially interested mag fed folks, so these higher priced veprs languish on the shelves.... if not, fine, more for me! hahahha
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:51 PM   #34
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chinese ask no permission, and take no prisoners, haha....

i wanna give em benefit of doubt, buuuuuuuut, its the fool me once thing.

i will prob eventually have one, prob get it in a trade.... buuuuut, i dont think i gonna seek one out. the veprs are just so smooth and ....ruussian....
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Old 05-08-2019, 09:46 PM   #35
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Just had the V12 out to the range this past week

Was putting every single slug shot on target(18x24) at 100yds with the iron sights. Got dam it felt good
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