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Old 08-13-2017, 10:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by hoevito View Post
(snip...)
A Geissele may cost a bit more but IMO the MBT is just as good in every way.
Are the MBTs individually magnetic particle inspected (as with all the normal/higher end Geissele models), batch mp tested (as with Geissele's cheaper offerings), or not at all?

I really don't know; that's a serious question. If not individually mp tested, I'd argue the MBT isn't "as good as", though it still may be fine for some people. I suspect they're only batch tested, if at all, and are intended to only compete with the cheaper end of the Geissele line. LaRue know what they're doing (and aren't known for selling things cheaper than they're worth), and if they knew their MBT could compete with a SSA, SSA-E, etc.--in use, materials, and qc inspections--I'd imagine they'd charge more for it.

Doesn't mean you don't like the MBT, or that it's not a good enough h/t/d for many people, in any case. Personally, I'll stick to Geissele SSAs and SSFs...I know the company provides a product I consider worth the asking price, with appropriately great customer service (something I can't say about LaRue's cs).
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Old 08-14-2017, 10:39 PM   #72
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Are the MBTs individually magnetic particle inspected (as with all the normal/higher end Geissele models), batch mp tested (as with Geissele's cheaper offerings), or not at all?

I really don't know; that's a serious question. If not individually mp tested, I'd argue the MBT isn't "as good as", though it still may be fine for some people. I suspect they're only batch tested, if at all, and are intended to only compete with the cheaper end of the Geissele line. LaRue know what they're doing (and aren't known for selling things cheaper than they're worth), and if they knew their MBT could compete with a SSA, SSA-E, etc.--in use, materials, and qc inspections--I'd imagine they'd charge more for it.

Doesn't mean you don't like the MBT, or that it's not a good enough h/t/d for many people, in any case. Personally, I'll stick to Geissele SSAs and SSFs...I know the company provides a product I consider worth the asking price, with appropriately great customer service (something I can't say about LaRue's cs).

Curious because I've not been able to confirm this after searching all over the web...but specifically what grade steel does Geissele use to make their triggers with (specifically their AR triggers)?
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:15 AM   #73
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Curious because I've not been able to confirm this after searching all over the web...but specifically what grade steel does Geissele use to make their triggers with (specifically their AR triggers)?
It's listed as S7 tool steel on various vendor websites and in the current Geissele catalog (available via their website). Did you find anything on my question about the MBT and mp inspection, or is that what you meant you'd searched on and couldn't find?
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:39 AM   #74
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It's listed as S7 tool steel on various vendor websites and in the current Geissele catalog (available via their website). Did you find anything on my question about the MBT and mp inspection, or is that what you meant you'd searched on and couldn't find?
Ok cool. I couldn't confirm whether or not the MBT is MP inspected, so I shot Larue an email directly just to be sure.

The MBT however is machined directly from solid S7 tool steel plates, whereas Geissele triggers are sand cast, then machined. Both formed from S7 tool steel, so the biggest differences are the manufacturing process and final QC. The method that Geissele uses to manufacture the triggers may speak to why they MP check each trigger, but I don't see that necessarily as an "advantage"...you're paying more for peace of mind that it's free from defects, not a definitively superior product. Not trying to start a cast vs. machined debate, but I'll take LaRue's process myself...

Again, speaking as how I have both and used them quite a bit...I feel the MBT is of no lesser quality than the Geissele, quite the contrary actually, and is just simply a better feeling trigger with a super clean break. Wider bow, includes two springs for two different pull weights, and arguably has a better warranty and customer support. I've also never heard of anyone breaking an MBT...can't say the same about a Geissele. (https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/...d-in-MPX-.html)

Search Google...countless threads and stories of users picking the MBT over Geissele, with good reason.

The LaRue is also as cheap as $99...over $100 cheaper than the SSA. I really like my Geissele triggers don't get me wrong, but once you've used an MBT...it's really tough to see the value with Geissele and justify their asking prices afterwards.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:51 PM   #75
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I've used both, and I'm considering getting rid of the MBT as I'm not impressed with it. The price is great, but mine is nothing to write home about.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:16 PM   #76
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Ok cool. I couldn't confirm whether or not the MBT is MP inspected, so I shot Larue an email directly just to be sure.

The MBT however is machined directly from solid S7 tool steel plates, whereas Geissele triggers are sand cast, then machined. Both formed from S7 tool steel, so the biggest differences are the manufacturing process and final QC. The method that Geissele uses to manufacture the triggers may speak to why they MP check each trigger, but I don't see that necessarily as an "advantage"...you're paying more for peace of mind that it's free from defects, not a definitively superior product. Not trying to start a cast vs. machined debate, but I'll take LaRue's process myself...

Again, speaking as how I have both and used them quite a bit...I feel the MBT is of no lesser quality than the Geissele, quite the contrary actually, and is just simply a better feeling trigger with a super clean break. Wider bow, includes two springs for two different pull weights, and arguably has a better warranty and customer support. I've also never heard of anyone breaking an MBT...can't say the same about a Geissele. (https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/...d-in-MPX-.html)

Search Google...countless threads and stories of users picking the MBT over Geissele, with good reason.

The LaRue is also as cheap as $99...over $100 cheaper than the SSA. I really like my Geissele triggers don't get me wrong, but once you've used an MBT...it's really tough to see the value with Geissele and justify their asking prices afterwards.
I would generally agree on the cast vs thing, but cast is most common for AR triggers, and the mp inspection does give that peace of mind. LaRue seems to machine their MBT from barstock or plate form S7, but they don't--that I've seen--mention whether that barstock/plate is itself cast/rolled/extruded or forged (less common for barstock). In any case, even if forged, individual mp testing is a good thing, and where I suspect they cut a corner to save some money.

Geissele has had these products on the market FAR longer than the MBT has been out, so it's little surprise there are a few more floating around with issues vs LaRue (many years as opposed to only months). Still, their problem sets are very, very low in number, and the company does right by their customers. Their individual testing does make the SSAs/SSFs "worth" more, to me. Their cs, IME, is far superior to LaRue's, too, and that's another factor.

In the end, such a product sold for over $100 less than a well-respected competing product suggests corners were cut somewhere. There are certainly a lot of people, especially these days, who jump at the chance to buy the cheaper item while telling themselves "it's just as good as", but that's just not how these things tend to work. If it works well enough for most of them--particularly considering that most people don't shoot enough to discover many such differences--that's great, but it doesn't make the products equal.

I won't hate on somebody for buying a MBT, but will need to see how they do once there are hundreds of thousands of sets out in the wild, for many years, before I decide they're equal to anything. Touching on something you mentioned: There are "countless" threads and stories of people choosing Tisas and Kimber 1911s over Colt and Wilson, but I can't imagine any reasonable person would think it's because they're "just as good as" vs (often) simply due to being cheaper. Different strokes, needs, wants, and value placed more on some factors than others.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:25 AM   #77
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I would generally agree on the cast vs thing, but cast is most common for AR triggers, and the mp inspection does give that peace of mind. LaRue seems to machine their MBT from barstock or plate form S7, but they don't--that I've seen--mention whether that barstock/plate is itself cast/rolled/extruded or forged (less common for barstock). In any case, even if forged, individual mp testing is a good thing, and where I suspect they cut a corner to save some money.

Geissele has had these products on the market FAR longer than the MBT has been out, so it's little surprise there are a few more floating around with issues vs LaRue (many years as opposed to only months). Still, their problem sets are very, very low in number, and the company does right by their customers. Their individual testing does make the SSAs/SSFs "worth" more, to me. Their cs, IME, is far superior to LaRue's, too, and that's another factor.

In the end, such a product sold for over $100 less than a well-respected competing product suggests corners were cut somewhere. There are certainly a lot of people, especially these days, who jump at the chance to buy the cheaper item while telling themselves "it's just as good as", but that's just not how these things tend to work. If it works well enough for most of them--particularly considering that most people don't shoot enough to discover many such differences--that's great, but it doesn't make the products equal.

I won't hate on somebody for buying a MBT, but will need to see how they do once there are hundreds of thousands of sets out in the wild, for many years, before I decide they're equal to anything. Touching on something you mentioned: There are "countless" threads and stories of people choosing Tisas and Kimber 1911s over Colt and Wilson, but I can't imagine any reasonable person would think it's because they're "just as good as" vs (often) simply due to being cheaper. Different strokes, needs, wants, and value placed more on some factors than others.

Quick follow up regarding your question about MPI with the MBT's...

Emailed response directly from LaRue:

"We do not MPI test the triggers and they are individually checked by our QC department."

Otherwise sounds like you're firmly in the Geissele camp, nothing wrong with that.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:38 AM   #78
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Quick follow up regarding your question about MPI with the MBT's...

Emailed response directly from LaRue:

"We do not MPI test the triggers and they are individually checked by our QC department."

Otherwise sounds like you're firmly in the Geissele camp, nothing wrong with that.
Thanks for posting their reply; data points are always good. It's unfortunate LaRue don't mp test, IMO, but isk what it isk. Sounds like we both have what we need/want/like, and you have both, so all good.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:12 AM   #79
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Ballistic Advantage and Faxon are two excellent choices for the money, and both would make good barrels for general purpose builds that will be very accurate as well. The QPQ barrels have a much nicer exterior finish vs. phosphated barrels and clean up MUCH easier, and are seemingly immune from corrosion and rust in my experience.

I've used Green Mountain, PSA Premium(FN CHF), Ballistic Advantage, Blackhole Weaponry, Faxon, LaRue, and KAK branded barrels in personal builds I've done. All make good stuff and each has it's own merits or advantages over the others. I see Faxon and BA being pretty much equals all things considered, both would be worthy alternatives for your build. The QPQ barrels offer the best balance between accuracy and longevity, and they require less maintanence as a nice little added bonus...basically they're pretty good at everything, and bad at nothing.
A pleasure to be mentioned. Let us know if we can help in any way!
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:57 AM   #80
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A pleasure to be mentioned. Let us know if we can help in any way!
How long before flame fluted match series 16/18 inch 6.5 Grendel barrels are available? Would look absolutely wicked with my Spike's Tactical "Jack" lower.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:41 AM   #81
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Well said.

Get home gun = PSA

It will perform and it will be [slightly] less painful if something happened to it.

Noveske = Keep in the safe
Assuming that a "get home gun" is one that you would trust your life to, why would you leave a high quality barreled rifle in the safe and go with a economy-gun?

And what about the whole-huge-range of other rifles on the market between luxury and junk?

I have a feeling your brain is forcing itself to be honest here- get home gun/ car gun = getting stolen gun... on an order of 1,000,000,000:1 vs. Street Combat.

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Their are many options out their that will preform as a Noveske would for less... If it's a tool you are looking for, I would go with one of those options. If you're buying Noveske, you're buying the name.
Whether you chalk it up to psychological effect/ kinesio-tape-phenomenon or attribute it to bolt matching, proprietary chamber cuts, polygonal twist, engineering, QC, etc... nothing I own shoots like my Noveske rifles.

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The AKFiles has a lot of "reverse gear snobs" as I call it.
You nailed it.

They seem to come here to validate each other's poor decision making... it's DELISH.

Any-old-rifle is good for sitting under the bed and coming out on Thanksgiving to scare the mother in law... but people who actually shoot know better. It's literally like going on a car forum and hearing about how Kia owns the road and pity to the fools have bought into the Porsche myth and legend.

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Buying Noveske, BCM, Or a Daniel Defense barrel guarantees quality, performance, service life, and customer support. There is a reason PSA CHF barrels are cheaper. They are held to a looser quality control specification than others.
Dude, it's like you just splashed holy water... faces are melting.

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...that doesn't change the fact that the barrels still all come off the same line made by the same machines by the same staff by the same company.
Nope. PSA LOVES to trot out the FN name, but despite coming off the same line, the barrels are still made to their spec- and knowing their target market and the type of ammunition they typically shoot, I'm sure that means bad things.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:45 AM   #82
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Everyone keeps throwing around "made to their spec" yet no one can quantify the statement with actual specs.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:57 AM   #83
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Everyone keeps throwing around "made to their spec" yet no one can quantify the statement with actual specs.

From the bit of research I did around the web, both Noveske and PSA CHF CL barrels are overgassed. Advantage Noveske because it's less pronounced on a midlength gas system. I'm putting an H3 buffer in the PSA build with a LaRue Chrome Silicon spring to compensate.

Seems like the Noveske CHF barrel shoots 1.5-2moa. Again, "web reports". The Daniel Defense S2W I ordered reportedly holds 1moa, but I'm only putting fixed sights on it. So, 2-3 moa with my shooting skills unscoped. More than good enough for a get home gun at $200 less.

When I build a rifle with a Fostech Echo, I'll drop the cash on the Noveske. Probably next year. Maybe 2019.

Next year's priority will be a few 6.5 Creedmoors.

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Old 08-17-2017, 12:22 PM   #84
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Everyone keeps throwing around "made to their spec" yet no one can quantify the statement with actual specs.
Bingo.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:08 PM   #85
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When I build a rifle with a Fostech Echo, I'll drop the cash on the Noveske.
LOLOLOLOLLL!!!!1!

Quit'cho clownin' homey!
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:14 PM   #86
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LOLOLOLOLLL!!!!1!

Quit'cho clownin' homey!
My 2 major rifle purchases this year were a Barrett REC7 DMR and a Sako Bavarian ($4100 all in).

Yes, I spend stupid money on things I want. No children affords me that luxury.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:40 PM   #87
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My 2 major rifle purchases this year were a Barrett REC7 DMR and a Sako Bavarian ($4100 all in).

Yes, I spend stupid money on things I want. No children affords me that luxury.
I am in the same boat! No kids, no significant other. I pour all my money into my hobbies!

As to the "built to their individual specs"... I can tell ya'll exactly what this means.

Individual companies (PSA, BCM, Noveske, etc...) send in their tolerance specs for the build. Where you get your price difference is the looseness of those tolerances. There are much more rejected samples from Noveske's lot then their are From pSA's.

For example, Noveske goes to FNH, wants 16" govt profile barrels with midlength gas systems, they want gas ports to fall within a spec that makes them no more or less than .002" over the desired number. They want perfect concentric 1/2x28 threads on every barrel, they want barrel extensions free of minor burs and they want them perfectly square to the barrel face. They want individual testing done to every barre, barrel extension, etc... This gets expensive, because once the barrel is done, they inspect it and if it doesn't pass it is set aside and they have to start over and now find something to do with this other barrel.

PSA goes in and says "give us a bunch of different barrels that meet minimum specs and work". This is where those barrels that just missed quality spec will end up. I know because I work in a similar industry. Nothing is wrong with these barrels for the most part. They work, but they just didn't meet the build quality for the other customer.

If you pulled apart 100 of each brand of barrels you would see more variations in the PSA barrels than the noveske. But you'll also probably find some samples from both manufacturers that are very close.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:13 PM   #88
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Yes, I spend stupid money on things I want. No children affords me that luxury.
Sweet, bro!

Do you brace them jointz, and run lazer beamz?

(You totally missed me there...)
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