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Old 12-27-2017, 02:29 PM   #71
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Those are sweet! Are those stocks or braces on those, who is the manufacturer?
They are MKE with B&T stocks.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:27 PM   #72
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They make a lot of sense for civilian range shooting, but that's about it.

Still want a Vector. One of these days......
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:30 PM   #73
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In a house, under a high stress situation, 3 points of contact beat 1/2 point(s) of contact with your firearm.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:14 PM   #74
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Opinions on 9mm sub guns?

They are badass!

There is a reason all these tactical response teams SWAT, GIGN, GSG 9, use them over pistols. In a home defense/ CQC, I would prefer a sub gun over a pistol any night. Having the 3 point contact of a MP5K beats a pistol. Even in semi auto they are bad ass.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:17 PM   #75
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Love my PCC. What a sexy timeless beauty. This thing is so much fun and perfect for HD. Every household should have one. Yippy Kai Yay!

That said, I do want to get a Sig MPX and may be a nice can for them next year.

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Old 12-27-2017, 04:26 PM   #76
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They are essentially mini rifles in a mini but serious caliber. Looking at my mp5, it reminds me of minute and handy weapon.

There is nothing impractical about a team of guys going into a building with smg’s and 12 gauges. They make the loadout easier when you have lights, lasers, repelling Gear, body armor, nvg’s and gas masks and breaching tools.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:16 PM   #77
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They are essentially mini rifles in a mini but serious caliber. Looking at my mp5, it reminds me of minute and handy weapon.

There is nothing impractical about a team of guys going into a building with smg’s and 12 gauges. They make the loadout easier when you have lights, lasers, repelling Gear, body armor, nvg’s and gas masks and breaching tools.
Couple that with the fact that you can have 5 hits on target in a smaller group with a PCC than 3 rounds with a rifle caliber. At least that’s my experience. I can accurately dump 30 rounds of 9mm into a smaller group faster than I can do it with any rifle. Considering both are semi auto, in a short range environment that stacks up one hell of an advantage to me in favor of a PCC. A sub gun amplifies that effect. And if a binary trigger is released for the scorpion? Damn, just damn, that will be one mean fun little bastard
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:04 PM   #78
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Default Just thinking aloud....

Since this one hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet, does anyone remember the Iver Johnson version of the M-1 carbine chambered in 9mm? They were made with Universal brand (different from the USGI design) parts and equipment in the mid 1980's. It was a heavily modified adaptation, with a Lexan plastic magazine well insert that allowed it to use modified Browning Hi-Power magazines. It was problematic and not a well thought out design; so it wasn't a commercial success.

Now, if someone could reproduce something like this with all the bugs worked out, and sold it at a reasonable price? ............James.
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:45 PM   #79
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I hate the term range toy. It belittles the fact that all guns are dangerous, even deadly. Albeit some are better choices for self-defense (i.e. 22LR vs 5.56) the fact is even the most "impractical" (in the eye of the hivemind) will kill someone, so they deserve respect for what they really are: weapons. If someone insists on using that term then it applies to almost 100% of all civilian-owned guns. Most will never, ever use any of their whizbang high-end 0p3r83r guns for more than punching holes in paper or ringing steel.

Pistol caliber carbines give a lot of advantages. Pistol ammo is cheaper both for practice and usually self-defense (hollowpoints). It tends to not be as concussive/loud (whenever I go to an indoor range I can always tell when someone is shooting a rifle in the bays before I get in), and it has less felt recoil. Pistol rounds gain velocity compared to their handgun brethren thanks to the longer barrel, but as noted above the gains really drop off at eight inches or so, but a sixteen inch barrel allows you a stock without having to play The Brace Game or pay the government for a permission slip so that should be considered. Depending on what PCC you buy you can even pair your PCC with your duty pistol so you have magazine and cartridge compatability. They tend to also play nice with suppressors as well.

The downside is that you are still shooting a 9mm, .40, .45, whatever. That means that soft body armor will still be effective unless you use AP ammo which to my knowledge is illegal. Not sure if the solid copper projectiles will go through soft body armor, (not considered AP legally AFAIK) so someone else can chime in on that. Range also suffers, with a lot of effectiveness lost 50+ yards. Upside of that is though you are likely to not have to engage threats 50+ yards, and if the bad guy is unarmored then PCCs are quite effective especially when you have 20+ rounds in your mags. Even if they are wearing body armor they're gonna have a Really Bad Day after getting tagged with a few rounds, and an Even Worse Day if you Mozambique.

Everything I have read states that PCCs can be great home defense weapons, which I agree with. Rifles and shotguns might be the more effective tools in their own right, but both of those comes with its own drawbacks as well.
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:24 PM   #80
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Sure, I'd want to down grade the effectiveness of a rifle and make it in pistol caliber. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:33 PM   #81
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The downside is that you are still shooting a 9mm, .40, .45, whatever. That means that soft body armor will still be effective unless you use AP ammo which to my knowledge is illegal. Not sure if the solid copper projectiles will go through soft body armor, (not considered AP legally AFAIK) so someone else can chime in on that. Range also suffers, with a lot of effectiveness lost 50+ yards. Upside of that is though you are likely to not have to engage threats 50+ yards, and if the bad guy is unarmored then PCCs are quite effective especially when you have 20+ rounds in your mags. Even if they are wearing body armor they're gonna have a Really Bad Day after getting tagged with a few rounds, and an Even Worse Day if you Mozambique.
You seem to be forgetting elementary physics . .

Even if the 147 grains don't penetrate, it's still gonna leave a mark.

OH WAIT! Your 9mm carbine uses 32 round mags?

WHAT? Shoot until the target is neutralized?


Some of you guys get so twisted over penetration and forget all about blunt force trauma . .

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Sure, I'd want to down grade the effectiveness of a rifle and make it in pistol caliber. Makes perfect sense to me.
Didn't read much ( if any ) of this thread, eh?
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:29 PM   #82
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I think there an awesome e shooter. I'm carbine,16" they will hit hard enough to put things in a bell of a hurt. I would say, Far from useless. A ton of fun and not crazy over the top expense to shoot. I'd suggest doing a ballistic jell test at at least 50+ yards and see what happens. I'd use one for self protection and also a double good thing as the ammo also fits my side arm. I like the 9's personally.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:43 PM   #83
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You seem to be forgetting elementary physics . .

Even if the 147 grains don't penetrate, it's still gonna leave a mark.

OH WAIT! Your 9mm carbine uses 32 round mags?

WHAT? Shoot until the target is neutralized?


Some of you guys get so twisted over penetration and forget all about blunt force trauma . .
You literally regurgitated what I said in the part you quoted from my post.

"and if the bad guy is unarmored then PCCs are quite effective especially when you have 20+ rounds in your mags. Even if they are wearing body armor they're gonna have a Really Bad Day after getting tagged with a few rounds"

That's exactly what I said.

Then you castigate me for "forgetting elementary physics" while saying the same thing I did.

Maybe time for bed?
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:18 AM   #84
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Sure, I'd want to down grade the effectiveness of a rifle and make it in pistol caliber. Makes perfect sense to me.
Back in the old days all they had was something called a "battle rifle".

Then somebody figured out a water cooled heavy automatic weapon in the same caliber was nice to have for continuous fire.

Then someone else figured out a light, portable, air cooled automatic in a handgun caliber was great for close up fighting.

Then somebody figured out that armies were fighting pretty damn close to each other and a 1000 yard rifle wasn't needed to hit them, so why don't we make the rifle cartridge shorter and make the rifle an air cooled automatic like the submachine gun and call it an assault rifle.

Then somebody decided to phase out the old submachine gun for short barreled assault rifles...

And shortly there after bought new submachine guns as they work well for what they were designed to do.

They are low recoil, fast on target, make less noise, carry a reasonable number of rounds in the mag.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:46 AM   #85
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Back in the old days all they had was something called a "battle rifle".

Then somebody figured out a water cooled heavy automatic weapon in the same caliber was nice to have for continuous fire.

Then someone else figured out a light, portable, air cooled automatic in a handgun caliber was great for close up fighting.

Then somebody figured out that armies were fighting pretty damn close to each other and a 1000 yard rifle wasn't needed to hit them, so why don't we make the rifle cartridge shorter and make the rifle an air cooled automatic like the submachine gun and call it an assault rifle.

Then somebody decided to phase out the old submachine gun for short barreled assault rifles...

And shortly there after bought new submachine guns as they work well for what they were designed to do.

They are low recoil, fast on target, make less noise, carry a reasonable number of rounds in the mag.
Cliff notes

Subguns are badass.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:10 AM   #86
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Cliff notes

Subguns are badass.
Why Yes, yes, they are.
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:16 AM   #87
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Santa brought me an EVO Scorpion Carbine with the Silencer Co. barrel shroud
It's completely badass
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:54 AM   #88
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It's almost 10am here in Lisbon. I'm sitting here at the Starbucks in the arrival hall waiting for my wife to arrive. I'm thinking that after I finish my coffee I'm going to tell these guys who are they trying to kid with their range toys. Might as well turn in their berets, kick back and enjoy the scenery while eating egg tart instead.



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Old 12-28-2017, 08:21 AM   #89
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A subgun gets about this with crappy training 115 grain 9mm ammo

200 yards/ 209 ft lbs energy/ 900 FPS velocity
300 yards/ 170 ft lbs energy/ 800 FPS velocity

So yes, the smg can make real world hits pass 25 yards
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Old 12-28-2017, 08:54 AM   #90
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All of my stuff either has a Shockwave blade or the thordsen cheek rest but my MP5K has yes and S&B tactical side folder on it arm brace
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:12 AM   #91
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A subgun gets about this with crappy training 115 grain 9mm ammo

200 yards/ 209 ft lbs energy/ 900 FPS velocity
300 yards/ 170 ft lbs energy/ 800 FPS velocity

So yes, the smg can make real world hits pass 25 yards
With a 50 yard zero it has 9ft of drop at 300 yards though.

Within 100 yards(5" drop) maybe 150(17" drop) is more reasonable for a 9mm PCC. Beyond 150 yards that little 9mm has a major rainbow trajectory. If you need range and compactness a braced pistol in a rifle caliber is the way to go.
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:36 AM   #92
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9mm subguns definitely have their place, but they are very much Niche weapons that shoot rounds that are poor man stoppers in the first place, if you can carry a rifle caliber around as a backup then do so as it will be superior to anything you'll fire from essentially a pistol.


They have there place when you absolutely need something compact and portable and lightweight with standardized ammunition between it and sidearm, also easy to shoot if your physically weak and can't handle a rifle.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:36 AM   #93
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The Sten and countless MP38's & 40's demonstrate how effective the little round works in the real world. Try a PPSH sometime......
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:01 PM   #94
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A subgun gets about this with crappy training 115 grain 9mm ammo

200 yards/ 209 ft lbs energy/ 900 FPS velocity
300 yards/ 170 ft lbs energy/ 800 FPS velocity

So yes, the smg can make real world hits pass 25 yards
I can’t say for sure what down range energy is but at 10’ from the muzzle federal 147 HST standard pressure is 1100 fps from a scorpion

Federal 124+P HST will probably sling about 1350-1400 fps. I’m firmly in the camp that within 150 yds the PCC is a good option and from 150-200 you might be pushing the edge. After 200 even if you can make hits on target I think it’s basically the same as chucking sharp point sticks, it’s gonna hurt if they hit but their effectiveness is severely reduced. Over 200 yds though and your really outside the scope of what a PCC is for anyway
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:23 PM   #95
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I can’t say for sure what down range energy is but at 10’ from the muzzle federal 147 HST standard pressure is 1100 fps from a scorpion

Federal 124+P HST will probably sling about 1350-1400 fps. I’m firmly in the camp that within 150 yds the PCC is a good option and from 150-200 you might be pushing the edge. After 200 even if you can make hits on target I think it’s basically the same as chucking sharp point sticks, it’s gonna hurt if they hit but their effectiveness is severely reduced. Over 200 yds though and your really outside the scope of what a PCC is for anyway
What you really have to figure out is expansion velocity threshold, on Ranger T-series I know it will expand at a minimum velocity of 700 fps, below that and it acts like an FMJ.

So 125 yards to 150 yards is probably your maximum to get really good JHP to expand and likely as velocity decreases within that range, that expansion will be lower and penetration will be higher.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/9mm-ballistics-chart/

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

some numbers for reference.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:31 PM   #96
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As others have mentioned, certain calibers and firearms have certain uses. I don't see the big argument.

You probably wouldn't use a .50 BMG for CQB since they are like 6' long and you would likely die from the concussion in an enclosed room (), so why would you use a compact PCC for long distance? Each has its use.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:33 PM   #97
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Couple that with the fact that you can have 5 hits on target in a smaller group with a PCC than 3 rounds with a rifle caliber. At least that’s my experience. I can accurately dump 30 rounds of 9mm into a smaller group faster than I can do it with any rifle. Considering both are semi auto, in a short range environment that stacks up one hell of an advantage to me in favor of a PCC. A sub gun amplifies that effect. And if a binary trigger is released for the scorpion? Damn, just damn, that will be one mean fun little bastard
I agree with your observation. While I can generally put rounds on target with a rifle (AR, AK, etc), putting a lot of them downrange in a short amount of time with my machinegun at typical or slightly longer distances than what someone would experience in a HD situation, is also quite effective.

This short video was fired at 25 yards. Using 36 round Suomi magazines. Note that none of the bullet impacts are out of the target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnNKeCCTh0
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:21 PM   #98
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But it’s only a 9mm...

You know, like a paintball gun, but less deadly.



While some of you are planing on the gun fight at the end of the world, I plan on more likely, real life self defense scenarios...

Ones where I have to drop the hammer at a 21 feet or less, not 300 meters.

You know, based on current, real life situations and my home’s floor plan.
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:23 PM   #99
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Ones where I have to drop the hammer at a 21 feet or less, not 300 meters.

You know, based on current, real life situations and my home’s floor plan.
We had a discussion on another forum concerning this.

I think out of a couple of dozen of participants, the absolute longest shot that any of us can take inside of their home was either 33 or 35 feet (I honestly don't recall which but HD average distance is usually much closer).

With the way my house is laid out, I could stand at the back of the house in my doorway at the hall and theoretically could shoot all the way to the front door, though there are a lot of rooms where a bad guy could theoretically dive for cover between that.

So for me, maximum HD distances are 28 feet but more likely a lot less.

My integrally suppressed sbr blackout is earmarked for HD (if I could get to it). Not going to lie.

My AR9 integrally suppressed firearm is my 2nd choice.

Either way, with 165 gr 9mm or 194 gr blackouts, I am confident enough in both to try to defend myself and my family with.

And both are similar in function and power. The only reason why I gave the blackout the nod is due to the Lehigh maximum expansion pills when comparing to the 165 gr fmj, which is not going to do much expanding at all, if any. And the blackout has a little more velocity behind it if grasping at straws trying to justify it.
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Old 12-28-2017, 03:47 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by SAIGA 5.45 View Post
What you really have to figure out is expansion velocity threshold, on Ranger T-series I know it will expand at a minimum velocity of 700 fps, below that and it acts like an FMJ.

So 125 yards to 150 yards is probably your maximum to get really good JHP to expand and likely as velocity decreases within that range, that expansion will be lower and penetration will be higher.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/9mm-ballistics-chart/

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

some numbers for reference.
Yep I’m pretty sure the 147 HST expands reliably down to 8-850 fps but below that I have no clue. The 124 HST I haven’t seen any pocket pistol ballistics test with it I just know that my scorpion acts like it likes AE/Federal 124 grain 9mm the best so that’s what I’m starting to stockpile for it

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Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
But it’s only a 9mm...

You know, like a paintball gun, but less deadly.



While some of you are planing on the gun fight at the end of the world, I plan on more likely, real life self defense scenarios...

Ones where I have to drop the hammer at a 21 feet or less, not 300 meters.

You know, based on current, real life situations and my home’s floor plan.
I’ve seen marbles fly out of the barrels of those damn things and I have to admit after watching a guy amp up the regulator on his gun and a home made barrel for the marbles I might consider being shot with a 380 instead haha

It’s as important to know the disadvantages of your gun as it is to know where it excels at. Excellent choice at close range but maybe poor choice to reach out farther than 100-150 yds is important to know at least to me here in Kansas where everything is wide open and often times I’m on the farm
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Old 12-28-2017, 03:56 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
But it’s only a 9mm...

You know, like a paintball gun, but less deadly.



While some of you are planing on the gun fight at the end of the world, I plan on more likely, real life self defense scenarios...

Ones where I have to drop the hammer at a 21 feet or less, not 300 meters.

You know, based on current, real life situations and my home’s floor plan.
That's nice, you found your niche, I can run my AR or AK just fine in the house so you must have some super narrow hallways and doors.


Also planning for the worst case makes the best case a piece of cake if the time comes.


Also within those distances I would much as soon have a handgun, as I am faster and far more effective 25 yards and under. Even 50 on a torso with a handgun is easy if you practice.
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:18 PM   #102
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New Ruger 9mm carbine. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...c-carbine-9mm/
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:19 PM   #103
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I'm an old "combat pistol shooter" that still shoots about 5k rounds a year to keep my skill set up.

I have many things to choose from for HD depending where I'm standing in my house. They do run from rifle caliber carbines to pistols and even pistols with braces.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:05 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanker2000 View Post
Does that PC carbine have a preferred pronoun?
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:07 PM   #105
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Haha, the PC carbine. And then there must be a SJW MSR out there
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