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Old 12-25-2017, 12:57 PM   #36
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The FBI had a special run of MP5's in 10mm with bolt hold open mechanism.
Now that is a pistol carbine combo I would love to have.
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:07 PM   #37
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I like my Colt 6450.

It's a fun little shooter. I use it for fun and HD, ( with two, 32 rnd mags attached together and loaded with 124gr +P Speer Gold Dots. )

I also have a PCC in .357 SIG that takes Glock mags.

Having a PCC gives one other options when rifle caliber carbines won't do.
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:09 PM   #38
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What's in your lap top carry case ? Note red dot .

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Old 12-25-2017, 02:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
So what happens when you build one of these . . .


. . . in 9mm or 10mm?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John A. View Post
Nothing.

If you do it right.
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You missed the point.

The poster for which this was a response said that pistol calibers don't do well out of rifle-length barrels . . .
I didn't mean that they don't do well, only that longer barrels in 9mm aren't necessary as they don't offer much more velocity. So that's what makes them appealing. They perform well with short barrels for the caliber, so there's not real 'loss' for using the short barrel. What do you get from 8" to 18" in 9mm, maybe 100 FPS?
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:11 AM   #40
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I have a cz scorpion a zenith mp5k a ati milsport pistol a century c9 uzi and a tnw aero pistol all chambered in 9 mm I luv them all looking to get one in 45 acp also
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:53 AM   #41
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Default Extra Velocity?

I didn't mean that they don't do well, only that longer barrels in 9mm aren't necessary as they don't offer much more velocity. So that's what makes them appealing. They perform well with short barrels for the caliber, so there's not real 'loss' for using the short barrel. What do you get from 8" to 18" in 9mm, maybe 100 FPS?

Check this link for various caliber/barrel length/velocity.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

I have a dream. In that dream the CZ Scorpion in 10mm!
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Old 12-26-2017, 01:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brasky View Post
I have the Glock 19 version of the sub 2000. 700+ rounds of numerous ammo weights, casing types, projectile types, and never a failure. I have tried 115gr all the way up to 158gr

HST 147+p out of a 16" barrel will be more than sufficient if I ever need to use it to defend myself.

Folded the sub 2000 takes up the same footprint as a mini Draco pistol but weighs considerably less





I had the same Sub 2000 and it was fun to shoot. Rounds had a nice "crack" when leaving the barrel. Several of my friends shot it and loved it. Very simple and very robust design.
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Old 12-26-2017, 03:20 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by AK-ula View Post
I didn't mean that they don't do well, only that longer barrels in 9mm aren't necessary as they don't offer much more velocity. So that's what makes them appealing. They perform well with short barrels for the caliber, so there's not real 'loss' for using the short barrel. What do you get from 8" to 18" in 9mm, maybe 100 FPS?

Check this link for various caliber/barrel length/velocity.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

I have a dream. In that dream the CZ Scorpion in 10mm!
Wow, depending on ammo, 10" longer barrel is less than a 50 FPS increase, some around 100. That was kind of my point. If you want compact, you're getting pretty much all 9mm has to offer with a very short barrel.
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Old 12-26-2017, 03:27 PM   #44
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You’ll be fine with a CZ scorpion
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Old 12-26-2017, 04:09 PM   #45
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A glock 17 with a 33 round mag makes an excellent 9mm carbine . Otherwise pistol caliber rifles are useless !
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Old 12-26-2017, 04:55 PM   #46
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Pcc’s don’t have a barrel that moves around and are built from the ground up and will always be more better than an AR9 and a Glock. You will always get better hits and havehigher velocity

Yes I know the AR-9mm Barrel is stationary. I am saying that AR anything usually sucks.
Mp5 is king
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:27 PM   #47
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Pcc’s don’t have a barrel that moves around and are built from the ground up and will always be more better than an AR9 and a Glock. You will always get better hits and havehigher velocity

Mp5 is king
You know the barrel of an AR9 doesn't move around, right?

I have an MP5 (clone as do most of the people that own "mp5's", not as many HK actuals in circulation).

And I also built an AR9.

I like the AR9 better.

Personal preference.

Another thing that folks should consider is the fact that MP5 Replacement and spare parts or upgrade parts are also a lot more expensive.

MP5 magazines also typically cost double what good metalform or colt mags cost too that the AR9's take. Or Glock mags, whichever receiver or mag block that you're using.

Just a few other reasons why I like one more than the other.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:33 PM   #48
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They are still MP5’s that are built from HK licensed factories. POF mp5 mags are not expensive. Nor are the extra parts in my opinion. Not unless you have to have German made maybe. I get everything from POF or Turkish aftermarket if available because the mp5 is a stamped metal beast.

That being said I am not a huge AR guy but I think the Little Retractable AR stocks are growing on me. I’d like to shoot one with a drum and short barrel. I think the 16 Barrel 9mm AR’s look ridiculous.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:06 PM   #49
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My uzi has a 16 inch barrel. It looks goofy. But it is what it is.

My scorpion is now wearing a 16 inch barrel too. Mainly because I didn't want to jump through the hoops for another tax stamp. I converted it to a rifle so I could add a stock and a front grip without paying to register it.

It's a bit more front heavy than it was before, but still is plenty maneuverable (especially with the stock folded) and is still a good gun. Even with the carbine barrel on it.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:22 PM   #50
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Otherwise pistol caliber rifles are useless !
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:34 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgil cole View Post
A glock 17 with a 33 round mag makes an excellent 9mm carbine . Otherwise pistol caliber rifles are useless !
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I can't believe it took this long for a PCC hater to surface.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:44 PM   #52
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I've been wanting 1, one that takes glock mags.. Was tempted by the Just right carbine, but that wore off, then the Freedom Ordinance FX-9 came out with the pistol which tempts me but the lack of solid reviews and the puny charging handle has me back to thinking PSA ar9.. I wrote Freedom about an extra charging handle and haven't received an answer in a timely fashion.. I want 1 but not for the big $ most are asking.. AR9s appear to be making a larger showing here recently..
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:50 PM   #53
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Build your own or shoot a 9mm AK and tell me its not fun , accurate or practical.
Slap a drum on one and REALLY have some fun.



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Old 12-27-2017, 01:07 AM   #54
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So. Much. Fun!

Mine:

MKE Z-5P
http://www.furtography.com/mke/DSC_7869.jpg

http://www.furtography.com/mke/DSC_7877.jpg

MKE Z-5RS

http://www.furtography.com/mke/DSC_7916.jpg

http://www.furtography.com/mke/DSC_7898.jpg

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Old 12-27-2017, 01:35 AM   #55
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Forgive my ignorance but is it a "no no" to shoulder an arm brace?

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Old 12-27-2017, 01:40 AM   #56
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Forgive my ignorance but can an arm brace be shouldered?
Accidentally? Why not?

If you have an arm brace as a substitution for a tax stamp, it's a felony.

We have done this to death here ( please use the search )
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:51 AM   #57
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Those are sweet! Are those stocks or braces on those, who is the manufacturer?
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:55 AM   #58
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I think they are a lot of fun, relatively inexpensive to shoot, quality ones are reliable, most have inexpensive magazines, and many are easy to SBR if desired.

I've been a fan since the '80s and the semi Uzi and Sterlings.

I like the Evo3 more than i thought I would, and mine has been 100% reliable. I will have owned it for 3 years come this February.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:38 AM   #59
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Forgive my ignorance but is it a "no no" to shoulder an arm brace?
If you alter that brace to be more stock like...

Then they got you under their current rules.

If it stays unaltered and it touches your shoulder, it is not magically an SBR.
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:10 AM   #60
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well pistol cal carbines have their place, they're not a good "substitute" for an intermediate rifle cal carbine un less you include the ultra magnum pistol cal, but those tend to be leverguns.
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:21 AM   #61
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well pistol cal carbines have their place, they're not a good "substitute" for an intermediate rifle cal carbine un less you include the ultra magnum pistol cal, but those tend to be leverguns.
9mm carbines have killed plenty of bad guys through history. Platform and caliber is fine.

Add in 10mm and it is a good "substitute" if you realize what the strengths and weaknesses are. No platform or caliber is perfect or does all things perfectly. There is a time and place for a PCC.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:07 AM   #62
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Those are sweet! Are those stocks or braces on those, who is the manufacturer?
Those are stocks.

They would be registered sbr's. Not pistols.

As for manufacturer, I would guess B&T

My MP5K sbr occasionally wears one, though not in this photo with my only 9mm submachinegun.

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Old 12-27-2017, 10:50 AM   #63
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PCC in 357sig or 10mm, you can play with loads and get some absolutely astounding ME and accuracy.

In my experience a PCC (and I've shot a lot of different ones) tend to have stand deviation issues at ranges of 100Y or higher as the absolute limiter on accuracy. That is, I've seen up to 3ft of variance in POI at 125Y from Winchester for example. You are also lobbing the round even out of a PCC at that range. If you want a PCC that is both up close and can reach a little without a rainbow I'd go with 357sig or 10mm for flatter shooting profiles, plus both cartridges can love them a 10" barrel. I mean who doesn't like 2K FPS out of a pistol cal.

As far as what it is, it is a totally different animal than an SBR in a rifle cal. The dynamic is totally different and you don't get the muzzle blast or flame thrower effect with a PCC.

Honestly, 9mm shines in the MP platform, almost like it is the IDEAL platform. I wouldn't do something in an AR or AK pattern, overkill. I've got an AR pattern 9mm PCC, its fun but more of a shrug. I changed it out to 357SIG and its now a hoot. It also reaches out real well when I want it to without a problem. Shoots well to 150Y without silly hold over or large deviation.

Just about any caliber can kill a human, but its the user behind the gun that usually determines how effective a weapon system is against 2 legged problems. Plenty of .22LR in the body count, and not just from execution hits.

Again, I choose 10mm and 357 sig not for more "killy factor" but because it is FLATTER in the trajectory department, which is a real world consideration as it significantly impacts the deployment of the weapon system. Same reason why 7.62TOK (762x25) is a great SMG/PCC/SBR round. Very flat, good feeding, plenty of "killy factor" but it feeds well and shoots flat.

If we had our freedoms back and had happy switches I'd go with a 762x25 in a heartbeat. They really shine in burst and FA fire because of their controlability (low recoil) when combined with flat shooting allows a lot of accurate firepower to be put down fast.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:55 AM   #64
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^So if I were to go with the MechTech upper, I should buy it for my 10mm Glock G20 not my 9mm G17?
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:06 AM   #65
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^So if I were to go with the MechTech upper, I should buy it for my 10mm Glock G20 not my 9mm G17?
LOL, I'd go for the 10mm for certain. 9mm works just fine but it's kind of a snooze fest.

Also, why? That's not an ideal platform. The MechTech is a gimmick. Always has been, always WILL be. If you want something like that get an S2000 that takes glock magazines.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:19 AM   #66
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Also, why? That's not an ideal platform. The MechTech is a gimmick. Always has been, always WILL be. If you want something like that get an S2000 that takes glock magazines.
The MechTech is not a "gimmick".

It is a niche product.

Just because it doesn't fit your niche doesn't make it any less for what it offers.



Besides, with MechTech having been around for 30-odd years at this time, that "gimmick" sure seems popular, eh?
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:34 AM   #67
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The MechTech is not a "gimmick".

It is a niche product.

Just because it doesn't fit your niche doesn't make it any less for what it offers.



Besides, with MechTech having been around for 30-odd years at this time, that "gimmick" sure seems popular, eh?
Plenty of gimmicky product that's been around for 30 years. Doesn't make it stop being so.

Kind of like most 9mm PCCs are gimmicky. The gimmick is that they are FUN and CHEAP to Shoot. Very valid gimmick but still... Outside of the MP platform the 9mm is really not that much fun but it does fit the need for CHEAP TO SHOOT. But if cheap to shoot is your thing, there is always the standby of 22LR which IS quite fun to shoot for trick shots, and general fun. Had a lot of time behind 22LR, spent plenty of time trying to hit specific parts of dimes or quarters or nickels, playing cards and the like.

Hell most of the HOBBY GUN market is about selling consumers on gimmicks.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:36 AM   #68
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^So if I were to go with the MechTech upper, I should buy it for my 10mm Glock G20 not my 9mm G17?
Why spend $400 on Mechtech?when you can buy a Sub 2000 that takes Glock,17,19,mags and call it a day. The Sub 2000 is a reliable platform 100% and will only set you back about $400,Mechtech no way.Anything a 10mm will do so will a 9mm with the right round.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:38 AM   #69
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I think the 10mm PCC’s aren’t my cup of tea but I am not a reloader. I recently read that the 10mm MP5’s had issues but it may be because they are getting old now. There is a lot to be said about the modern 9mm.

Another thing is 90% of 10mm nowadays is literal the same as 40 s&w until you get into Buffalo Bore and such. I am a fan of the 40 and 10, but I prefer the PCC in 9mm.

I held a full auto UMP-45 the other day. Those are neat. I think the evo with the slider stock would have gotten the mp5 out of my system.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:42 AM   #70
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I think the 10mm PCC’s aren’t my cup of tea but I am not a reloader. I recently read that the 10mm MP5’s had issues but it may be because they are getting old now. There is a lot to be said about the modern 9mm.

Another thing is 90% of 10mm nowadays is literal the same as 40 s&w until you get into Buffalo Bore and such. I am a fan of the 40 and 10, but I prefer the PCC in 9mm.

I held a full auto UMP-45 the other day. Those are neat. I think the evo with the slider stock would have gotten the mp5 out of my system.
There were feed problems with the 10MM IIRC.

I wouldn't get and never suggested an MP platform 10mm. Also, yes, most consumer ammo is "under-loaded". Its a cost thing. I hand load, it makes a huge difference. Though I don't buy buffalobore I do buy other full power company ammo like Underwood for the 357SIG, even though I hand load most of mine.

Again, 9mm to 10mm isnt about killy power, stopping power, or whatever magical measuring stick someone is using, its about trajectory.

UMP-45s are pretty fun, even though I've never been a fan of the 45ACP. It's nice that there are enough products and cals to fit everyone's particular kink when it comes to the caliber wars.
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Cor contritum quasi cinis,
Gere curam mei finis.

Dies iræ, dies illa, dies tribulationis et angustiæ, dies calamitatis et miseriæ, dies tenebrarum et caliginis, dies nebulæ et turbinis, dies tubæ et clangoris super civitates munitas et super angulos excelsos
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