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Old 02-19-2018, 03:52 PM   #36
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Hopefully their pricing will be competitive.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:53 PM   #37
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I really like my SAR, but for me I will just go AR10 if I want to shoot 308 and save my $ compared to the .308 Tavor. Too expensive of a shooter for me, but its good to have choices. Saying that I need to take my Tavor out next shooting day.
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:49 PM   #38
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Anyone hear any pricing yet?
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Old 02-19-2018, 05:50 PM   #39
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$2299 msrp
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:13 PM   #40
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Wow that seemed REALLY well controlled in FA bursts. Thx for the post
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:18 PM   #41
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$2299 msrp
So $2000 street pricing. That actually isn't too bad. Similar to the Galil ACE .308 pricing.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:03 PM   #42
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Probably be available before you can find a MDR.
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:22 PM   #43
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Probably be available before you can find a MDR.
Are they still not shipping? I thought they started shipping in the fall of 2017?

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/des...-mdr-shipping/
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:17 PM   #44
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So $2000 street pricing. That actually isn't too bad. Similar to the Galil ACE .308 pricing.

$1566 for an ACE.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:32 PM   #45
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Are they still not shipping? I thought they started shipping in the fall of 2017?

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/des...-mdr-shipping/
DT shipped like 10 rifles, then yet again there were another 2-3 more delays. I cancelled my order and I cannot wait to see reviews on the T7.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:52 PM   #46
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$1566 for an ACE.
I thought the .308 ACE pistol was $1500-1600 and the 16" was $1800-1900. It was that way the last time I looked at them 5-6 months back.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:24 PM   #47
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I thought the .308 ACE pistol was $1500-1600 and the 16" was $1800-1900. It was that way the last time I looked at them 5-6 months back.
It was but the price has come down alot on them it's $1566 for the 16" 308
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:26 PM   #48
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It was but the price has come down alot on them it's $1566 for the 16" 308
I guess they haven't been selling well (or as well as IWI had hoped) if the price has dropped that much. Have the pistols dropped in price as well? $1566 for the 16" is actually not a bad price considering a SCAR 17 is $2900-3000. I know I know, apples and oranges. But still, $1566 for a battle rifle isn't bad at all.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:25 PM   #49
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This looks interesting!
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:16 AM   #50
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I guess they haven't been selling well (or as well as IWI had hoped) if the price has dropped that much. Have the pistols dropped in price as well? $1566 for the 16" is actually not a bad price considering a SCAR 17 is $2900-3000. I know I know, apples and oranges. But still, $1566 for a battle rifle isn't bad at all.
M&P 10 sport's are still $800-$900 granted they come in a basic format. Smith & Wesson needs to put out a free floated version that comes with some basic BUIS, a brake, and an MFT Minimalist. I think they could keep the price somewhere between $1,000-$1,200 depending on which accessories used and they would sell like hot cakes. If Smith & Wesson were really smart they would offer 6.5 Creedmoor uppers to go with the accessorized M&P10 sport's at a price that allowed people to get 308 M&P10 sport and 6.5cm upper to go with it for south of $2k.

Surprisingly the ace 308 pistols are $1525 even w/o a brace. $1566 for a rifle is an attractive price and I like the Ace I like the way they shoulder and feel, alot actually but even for 1566 I still don't plan on picking one up. The modularity of the AR just beats all the other options at least for me and for what I want to do. The Tavor 556's are in the low $1400's which is about the same price as the Galil 556 and 7.62x39 so it will be interesting to see where the retail price falls for the Tavor 308. Then we have the fishy looking Berreta coming as well. We've gone from no real modern options other than the over priced Scar 17 to quite a few in the last few years, good times.
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:22 AM   #51
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Then we have the fishy looking Berreta coming as well.
We've gone from no real modern options other than the over priced Scar 17 to quite a few in the last few years, good times.
LMFAO......I couldn't figure out WTF it resembled to me but I didn't like it.
Ya nailed it.

I think all these are cool Battle Rifle options. The SCAR has always been absurdly priced to me.
However, I'd like to test them all back to back to see if it is a justified price difference.
I saw the SCAR held it's own against a AR-308 in a 600 yard test for accuracy shots.
Not sure how these other variants would do.

I just don't see spending $2000-$2800 on a Battle Rifle in semi-auto as beneficial.
As a deploying contractor, in that position yeah maybe.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:39 AM   #52
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LMFAO......I couldn't figure out WTF it resembled to me but I didn't like it.
Ya nailed it.

I think all these are cool Battle Rifle options. The SCAR has always been absurdly priced to me.
However, I'd like to test them all back to back to see if it is a justified price difference.
I saw the SCAR held it's own against a AR-308 in a 600 yard test for accuracy shots.
Not sure how these other variants would do.

I just don't see spending $2000-$2800 on a Battle Rifle in semi-auto as beneficial.
As a deploying contractor, in that position yeah maybe.
I wish I could find the picture that someone Photoshop'd of the ARX into a Tuna.

I wonder if more competition will force FN to re-evaluate their Scar pricing, probably not. This has to be the 600 yard test you're talking about. The Scar did well in that test but 600 yards isn't that far for a 308.

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Old 02-21-2018, 10:02 AM   #53
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That's the one.

600 yards isn't far for a 308 , but the SCAR is a Battle Rifle, not DMR/Sniper.......and it held it's own against the MEGA AR.
When you're talking DMR/SNiper, sure it can be pressed further out and I know you shoot further.
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Old 02-21-2018, 12:22 PM   #54
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LMFAO......I couldn't figure out WTF it resembled to me but I didn't like it.
Ya nailed it.

I think all these are cool Battle Rifle options. The SCAR has always been absurdly priced to me.
However, I'd like to test them all back to back to see if it is a justified price difference.
I saw the SCAR held it's own against a AR-308 in a 600 yard test for accuracy shots.
Not sure how these other variants would do.

I just don't see spending $2000-$2800 on a Battle Rifle in semi-auto as beneficial.
As a deploying contractor, in that position yeah maybe.


+1

Unless it's something collectable I won't go over 2K on any Gun, fuck that.

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Old 03-13-2018, 08:43 AM   #55
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Karl and Ian don't seem that impressed with it.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:00 PM   #56
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Karl and Ian don't seem that impressed with it.
I Watched that video last week, I take what they say with a grain of salt since Karl doesn’t like any bullpups it begin with and still said it wasn’t bad.

Ian likes his little French gun and will never part with it come hell or high water but was comparing a 5.56 and a 308.

All in all everyone is just speculating or basing an opinion off of a couple 2-5 mags through the gun and we’ll get some real data here around the May time frame hopefully. Hell I already got blasted on the bullpup forum for saying I hope this will shoot good enough to be a 800-1000 steel plinker with the 20” barrel that’s supposed to be released shortly after the whole gun is
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:41 PM   #57
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I Watched that video last week, I take what they say with a grain of salt since Karl doesn’t like any bullpups it begin with and still said it wasn’t bad.

Ian likes his little French gun and will never part with it come hell or high water but was comparing a 5.56 and a 308.

All in all everyone is just speculating or basing an opinion off of a couple 2-5 mags through the gun and we’ll get some real data here around the May time frame hopefully. Hell I already got blasted on the bullpup forum for saying I hope this will shoot good enough to be a 800-1000 steel plinker with the 20” barrel that’s supposed to be released shortly after the whole gun is
If you want a gun that's capable to 800-1000 yards a Tavor isn't it. Coming from multiple sources with match ammo the 556 tavors shoot groups anywhere inbetween 2moa - 3.5moa and probably averages 2.5moa - 2.75 moa. The gun rides in a polymer chassis it's just not ridged enough to produce the kind of accuracy you need.

Lot of ppl think that because a gun will shoot 2.5" at 100 that it will translate to 25" at 1000 but that's not the case accuracy is not linear. One round comes out of the barrel at 2500 fps and the next maybe 2450 fps. Go into your ballistic calculator and see what a 50 fps difference does to your drop at 1000 yards. With Fed Gold Metal Match 175gr SMK it's about 20" at 1000 and it's 11" at 800 yards now add that to the vertical dispersion of your group. Wind is dynamic and once the shots fired the wind can gust or not or even slightly change direction thus it is impossible to account for wind perfectly with consistency. Long range shooters account for wind error and many expert level shooters will account for a wind error of +1/-1 mph or a 2mph variance in calm conditions now add that horizontal variance to your group. A full torso size IPSC target is 17.75"x29.5".

With a 308 in order to hit a full size IPSC with good consistency at 1000 you need a gun that can shoot 1 moa @ 100 consistently and ideally 0.75 moa would be much better. To get the same results at 800 you need a gun that can shoot 1.25-1.5moa consistently. Unless IWI has made radical changes to accurize the 308 Tavor 800-1000 yards with worthwhile consistency is going to be beyond the capabilities of the the rifle. A max range of 500-700 yards with match ammo that can provide results equivalent to Fed Gold Metal Match is a realistic goal for the Tavor. If you want an 800-1000 yard rifle to that would require more of a DMR and an accurate AR10 is what you need. Some food for thought the 556 Tavor shoots 2- 2.5 moa 5 shot groups with Fed Gold Metal, my AR10 in 308 with a very accurate match barrel can shoot 2 moa 10 shot groups with Wolf Steel case and 0.6 moa 5 shot groups with Fed Gold Metal Match. The Wolf is $0.30 cpr and the Federal GMM is $1.00/rnd so based on the results of the 556 tavor a Tavor owner would have to pay $1.00 rnd to shoot slightly worse than the AR10 can for $0.30 cpr.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:59 PM   #58
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If you want a gun that's capable to 800-1000 yards a Tavor isn't it. Coming from multiple sources with match ammo the 556 tavors shoot groups anywhere inbetween 2moa - 3.5moa and probably averages 2.5moa - 2.75 moa. The gun rides in a polymer chassis it's just not ridged enough to produce the kind of accuracy you need.

Lot of ppl think that because a gun will shoot 2.5" at 100 that it will translate to 25" at 1000 but that's not the case accuracy is not linear. One round comes out of the barrel at 2500 fps and the next maybe 2450 fps. Go into your ballistic calculator and see what a 50 fps difference does to your drop at 1000 yards. With Fed Gold Metal Match 175gr SMK it's about 20" at 1000 and it's 11" at 800 yards now add that to the vertical dispersion of your group. Wind is dynamic and once the shots fired the wind can gust or not or even slightly change direction thus it is impossible to account for wind perfectly with consistency. Long range shooters account for wind error and many expert level shooters will account for a wind error of +1/-1 mph or a 2mph variance in calm conditions now add that horizontal variance to your group. A full torso size IPSC target is 17.75"x29.5".

With a 308 in order to hit a full size IPSC with good consistency at 1000 you need a gun that can shoot 1 moa @ 100 consistently and ideally 0.75 moa would be much better. To get the same results at 800 you need a gun that can shoot 1.25-1.5moa consistently. Unless IWI has made radical changes to accurize the 308 Tavor 800-1000 yards with worthwhile consistency is going to be beyond the capabilities of the the rifle. A max range of 500-700 yards with match ammo that can provide results equivalent to Fed Gold Metal Match is a realistic goal for the Tavor. If you want an 800-1000 yard rifle to that would require more of a DMR and an accurate AR10 is what you need. Some food for thought the 556 Tavor shoots 2- 2.5 moa 5 shot groups with Fed Gold Metal, my AR10 in 308 with a very accurate match barrel can shoot 2 moa 10 shot groups with Wolf Steel case and 0.6 moa 5 shot groups with Fed Gold Metal Match. The Wolf is $0.30 cpr and the Federal GMM is $1.00/rnd so based on the results of the 556 tavor a Tavor owner would have to pay $1.00 rnd to shoot slightly worse than the AR10 can for $0.30 cpr.
We’ll the Tavor 7 uses a completely different operating system than the 5.56 guns, they pretty much only looks the same on the outside from what I’ve gathered. No one actually knows how the gun shoots because the only Tavor 7 we’ve seen shot has basically been the one at shot show where they said shoot this mag semi auto then here dump this mag with the fun switch. Then with the 20” barrel that will have a faster twist rate for shooting heavier rounds who knows how that will shoot.

Not looking for a precision rifle, just wanna push some boundaries.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:35 PM   #59
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We’ll the Tavor 7 uses a completely different operating system than the 5.56 guns, they pretty much only looks the same on the outside from what I’ve gathered. No one actually knows how the gun shoots because the only Tavor 7 we’ve seen shot has basically been the one at shot show where they said shoot this mag semi auto then here dump this mag with the fun switch. Then with the 20” barrel that will have a faster twist rate for shooting heavier rounds who knows how that will shoot.

Not looking for a precision rifle, just wanna push some boundaries.
I still don't think the Tavor is going to meet your 800-1000 yard goals while it would be nice if just any battle rifle could. As far as I'm aware the changes to the action were to accomplish ambidextrous features not improve accuracy. I'm not aware of them making any changes that would improve accuracy like improving lock up tolerances of the bolt, free floating the barrel, improving tolerances of the barrel rifling, improving the barrel steel, increasing the barrel profile, increasing the rigidity of the polymer chassis to prevent flex, or anything else that would improve accuracy.

The #'s I gave you earlier were for a 20" barrel running 175gr FGMM one of the best match 308 loads available. Those #'s were best case scenario they assumed that wind was clam, that the shooter was experienced, that the shooter had correct velocities from a crono, that the shooter understood that temperature affected powder burn rate and had used the crono to gain velocity data in a variety of temperatures to understand what the exact fps was for that temperature, that the shooter had the exact range and wasn't mil estimating range, that the scope adjusted precisely, and that the shooter had correct dope for the weather conditions on that given day.

The 556 tavors would hold a group average of 2.5-2.75 moa but you need 1 moa to get to 1000 and 1.5 moa to get to 800 with worthwhile consistency or roughly double the accuracy that the 556 guns were producing it's a dramatic change. Had IWI made dramatic accuracy improvements to the Tavor 7 don't you think they would have mentioned that at a time like shot show given that the purpose of the show is to publicise the rifle. I know your saying that you're not looking for a percision rifle but to accomplish the distance you're hoping for you're going to need one. I think the Tavor is going to disappoint you in this regard.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:05 PM   #60
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I still don't think the Tavor is going to meet your 800-1000 yard goals while it would be nice if just any battle rifle could. As far as I'm aware the changes to the action were to accomplish ambidextrous features not improve accuracy. I'm not aware of them making any changes that would improve accuracy like improving lock up tolerances of the bolt, free floating the barrel, improving tolerances of the barrel rifling, improving the barrel steel, increasing the barrel profile, increasing the rigidity of the polymer chassis to prevent flex, or anything else that would improve accuracy.

The #'s I gave you earlier were for a 20" barrel running 175gr FGMM one of the best match 308 loads available. Those #'s were best case scenario they assumed that wind was clam, that the shooter was experienced, that the shooter had correct velocities from a crono, that the shooter understood that temperature affected powder burn rate and had used the crono to gain velocity data in a variety of temperatures to understand what the exact fps was for that temperature, that the shooter had the exact range and wasn't mil estimating range, that the scope adjusted precisely, and that the shooter had correct dope for the weather conditions on that given day.

The 556 tavors would hold a group average of 2.5-2.75 moa but you need 1 moa to get to 1000 and 1.5 moa to get to 800 with worthwhile consistency or roughly double the accuracy that the 556 guns were producing it's a dramatic change. Had IWI made dramatic accuracy improvements to the Tavor 7 don't you think they would have mentioned that at a time like shot show given that the purpose of the show is to publicise the rifle. I know your saying that you're not looking for a percision rifle but to accomplish the distance you're hoping for you're going to need one. I think the Tavor is going to disappoint you in this regard.
Great post and I agree.

The .308 Tavor isn't going to be able to keep up with the likes of the LMT 308MWS or the KAC SR-25 or a LaRue Tactical PredatOBR 7.62. True DMR rifles that can go out to 1000 yards all day with the right ammo.

I see the Tavor as more of a 500-600-700 yard rifle for those wanting something that packs more punch than a 5.56 and is still a compact rifle. Nothing wrong with that. But I personally wouldn't get one with the expectation of it being a DMR type platform. I could obviously be proven wrong once these actually hit the street.

While it is true that Karl doesn't care for bullpups, he and Ian raise some interesting observations about it. Will just have to see if those are just personal preferences or if they are legitimate concerns with the Tavor 7.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:21 PM   #61
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Great post and I agree.

The .308 Tavor isn't going to be able to keep up with the likes of the LMT 308MWS or the KAC SR-25 or a LaRue Tactical PredatOBR 7.62. True DMR rifles that can go out to 1000 yards all day with the right ammo.

I see the Tavor as more of a 500-600-700 yard rifle for those wanting something that packs more punch than a 5.56 and is still a compact rifle. Nothing wrong with that. But I personally wouldn't get one with the expectation of it being a DMR type platform. I could obviously be proven wrong once these actually hit the street.

While it is true that Karl doesn't care for bullpups, he and Ian raise some interesting observations about it. Will just have to see if those are just personal preferences or if they are legitimate concerns with the Tavor 7.
Personally I think you fellas are terribly confused about the definition, and expected capability of a DMR. Y'all are confusing it with a precision rifle, which is not the case here in real life. A DMR offers extended range capabilities past what your standard service rifle can accomplish, but in the Army for instance, that is 600 meters. The true combat effective range of a DMR, when put in use, is 600 meters. Yes, you can shoot farther, and yes you may get a hit, but past that 600 meter point target range, you're looking at more of an area target. Take this for what you will.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:30 PM   #62
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Another thing. Nofreetime, you started discussing standard deviation and other factors involved in making a hit at distance. Gas operated rifles are a piss poor choice for a precision rifle simply due to the fact that gas if bled out of the barrel while the projectile is still in it. This bleed off cannot be precisely controlled, and thus leads to higher standard deviation. While I can maintain a 5 foot per second standard deviation with my bolt rifle and hand loads, you are completely correct that a gas gun could see as high as 50 feet per second difference, or more. That is why gas guns have trouble competing with bolt guns in precision rifle competitions. They simply cannot maintain the same level of accuracy at distance. Now, can you make hits at 1k yards with a gas gun? Absolutely. But due to the nature of the gas operating system, it is still limited. If you really want to go deep down this rabbit hole, look up Project X by CFA.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:57 PM   #63
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Personally I think you fellas are terribly confused about the definition, and expected capability of a DMR. Y'all are confusing it with a precision rifle, which is not the case here in real life. A DMR offers extended range capabilities past what your standard service rifle can accomplish, but in the Army for instance, that is 600 meters. The true combat effective range of a DMR, when put in use, is 600 meters. Yes, you can shoot farther, and yes you may get a hit, but past that 600 meter point target range, you're looking at more of an area target. Take this for what you will.
I don't know about 600 meters. I have seen the call for 900 meters (985 yards) for a DMR setup by the Brits with their urgent operational requirement when they selected the LMT L129A1.

The USMC M27 for out to 800 meters.

The M110 for out to 800 meters.

600 meters is the beginning of the effective range for a DMR. A .308/7.62x51 DMR that can't go out past that is worthless. The M118LR round is good out to 1000 yards (obviously shooter dependent).

The Mk 262 Mod 0/1 round enhances the range out to 700 meters for the Mk12

True combat effective range of a DMR/SASS is way past 600 meters in a .308/7.62x51. For a Mk12 5.56 DMR, I would agree that it is probably around 600 meters.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:54 AM   #64
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Personally I think you fellas are terribly confused about the definition, and expected capability of a DMR. Y'all are confusing it with a precision rifle, which is not the case here in real life. A DMR offers extended range capabilities past what your standard service rifle can accomplish, but in the Army for instance, that is 600 meters. The true combat effective range of a DMR, when put in use, is 600 meters. Yes, you can shoot farther, and yes you may get a hit, but past that 600 meter point target range, you're looking at more of an area target. Take this for what you will.
The nomenclature doesn't matter in this case since the poster stated a specific yardage 800-1000 yards. I stand by my previous comments on this. With match ammo 600 yards is a reasonable expectation of this rifle. You will need more accuracy than a Tavor will provide at 800-1000 otherwise you just wasting $1/rnd match ammo.


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Originally Posted by MattyZ28 View Post
Another thing. Nofreetime, you started discussing standard deviation and other factors involved in making a hit at distance. Gas operated rifles are a piss poor choice for a precision rifle simply due to the fact that gas if bled out of the barrel while the projectile is still in it. This bleed off cannot be precisely controlled, and thus leads to higher standard deviation. While I can maintain a 5 foot per second standard deviation with my bolt rifle and hand loads, you are completely correct that a gas gun could see as high as 50 feet per second difference, or more. That is why gas guns have trouble competing with bolt guns in precision rifle competitions. They simply cannot maintain the same level of accuracy at distance. Now, can you make hits at 1k yards with a gas gun? Absolutely. But due to the nature of the gas operating system, it is still limited. If you really want to go deep down this rabbit hole, look up Project X by CFA.
Oh really. Maybe you can tell me which is the gas gun and which is the bolt gun from these chrono readings then? It's same exact ammo in two different calibers and both are are about as good as it gets with factory loads.





I don't need to look into Project x or anywhere else I have both a bolt gun, a gas gun, and chronograph and I've my own data. I've chronographed multiple loads with each and notice no change from system to system. Also my gas gun chrono's similarly to others bolt guns with the same ammo. Furthermore the gas gun chrono's just as low of ES and SD as my bolt with the same loads and the gas gun has chrono'd about as low as you can get from factory ammo. I've had the gas gun at +1500 yards. All I can tell you is that from lots of real world data that I've collected that what you're saying is BS. Now if you have an improperly built gas gun or one that has timing issues and is unlocking early and under pressure then yes there's some truth there but that's a flaw of the builder not of the system itself and a gas gun thats running properly is capable of the same ES and SD's as a bolt gun.

Btw you're stating your bolt gun at 5 fps SD and a gas at 50 fps SD. However you're confused the 50 fps number I gave out earlier was in reference to ES (extreme spread) not SD.

A 50 fps ES will typically equate to an SD of 9-12. These are phenomenal #'s for factory match ammo about as good as it gets from a gas or a bolt gun. To get SD's down to 5 fps you will need handloads no factory ammo can do it consistently regardless of the type of gun.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:54 AM   #65
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@DMR engagements - Guys, before I became sniper in the Army, i was squad designated marksman (I actually went to real SDM school and I graduated from the school). Per official US Army doctrine, SDM role is to "close the gap between infantryman and sniper, so to engage targets between 300m and 600m).
In school, we had to qualify first with irons then with optic on static targets up to 600m (ranging and engaging). On movers up to 300m.
SDM doesn't have spotter and he doesn't have spotting scope - so he calls his own wind and shots based on very limited resources...

As for gas gun vs bolt gun. Advances in technology for gas guns are amazing. Precision rifle blog did awesome article on 6.5 creedmoor one of the best bolt guns vs one of the best gas guns. Results are really eye opening, here is short quote and i encourage you to read whole article (link here): "I’m going to bet it surprises at least a few people to see how close an AR can come to the precision custom bolt-action rifle! Especially considering the Surgeon cost 36% more than the JP!"

As for .308 Tavor - I haven't shot one yet, so i can't tell much about it, but i never could warm up to original Tavor...
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Old 03-14-2018, 09:17 AM   #66
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I wish I could find the picture that someone Photoshop'd of the ARX into a Tuna.

I wonder if more competition will force FN to re-evaluate their Scar pricing, probably not. This has to be the 600 yard test you're talking about. The Scar did well in that test but 600 yards isn't that far for a 308.

The thing is that a SCAR17, the real version, is actually pretty cheap. It's the civy semi-auto rifle that is costly. Non-transferable MGs are dirt cheap by comparison to what most folks think. Last I checked (was more than a few years ago) an 07 I knew looked in his book and he could order a SCAR17 for 800 bucks. High end H&K firearms were similar. M series rifles were cheap as dirt.

If Trump gave us one carrot it should be either a repeal of the NFA or at least reopen transfer, permanently.
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Old 03-14-2018, 06:37 PM   #67
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@DMR engagements - Guys, before I became sniper in the Army, i was squad designated marksman (I actually went to real SDM school and I graduated from the school). Per official US Army doctrine, SDM role is to "close the gap between infantryman and sniper, so to engage targets between 300m and 600m).
In school, we had to qualify first with irons then with optic on static targets up to 600m (ranging and engaging). On movers up to 300m.
SDM doesn't have spotter and he doesn't have spotting scope - so he calls his own wind and shots based on very limited resources...

As for gas gun vs bolt gun. Advances in technology for gas guns are amazing. Precision rifle blog did awesome article on 6.5 creedmoor one of the best bolt guns vs one of the best gas guns. Results are really eye opening, here is short quote and i encourage you to read whole article (link here): "I’m going to bet it surprises at least a few people to see how close an AR can come to the precision custom bolt-action rifle! Especially considering the Surgeon cost 36% more than the JP!"

As for .308 Tavor - I haven't shot one yet, so i can't tell much about it, but i never could warm up to original Tavor...
The JP averaged 0.7 moa and the Surgeon averaged 0.5 moa. To be fair the Surgeon's Bartlien single point cut rifled Heavy Palma is a better barrel and also is a heavier profile than the JP's button rifled 0.750" under the handguard 0.936" at the gas block and 0.875" after the gas block. A single point cut rifled Krieger in the AR which 0.936" at the gas block doesn't tapper down under the handguard and IIRC is 0.875" after the gas block would have given a more even comparison as the most possible equivalent equipment would have been used across both systems.

I've heard the arguement that the AR can't compete with a bolt gun as of late. Thing is many people make their living building high end bolt guns. When you look at all the labor that goes into a custom bolt gun build or even more so into 700 build there's money in bolt guns it's an industry which provides revenue that's depended on by many businesses. Several of those businesses are sponsors for various PRS events. AR's on the contrary are user configurable and don't require the large of amount of gunsmithing and machining labor nor do they require $800-$1200 custom actions that are placed in $500-$2000 chasis systems. An AR capable of extreme performance costs far less than a comparable bolt gun. Competition events like PRS have an impact on the industry even outside of the competition arena. For any competitive event the best equipment for the task is dictated by the competitions rules. This means that a competitive series like PRS can drive market sales and influence sales both within the competitive market and outside of it by the way it sets it's rules however PRS is much more heavily sponsored by bolt gun companies. In 2017 the PRS opened a separate gas gun division series in which the targets are larger, the ranges are shorter, and points are more heavily awarded based on time than the in bolt gun series. Thus the rules favor a gas gun which lighter, faster into action, and has a lighter profile less accurate barrel than the bolt gun division.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:51 AM   #68
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I've heard the arguement that the AR can't compete with a bolt gun as of late. Thing is many people make their living building high end bolt guns. When you look at all the labor that goes into a custom bolt gun build or even more so into 700 build there's money in bolt guns it's an industry which provides revenue that's depended on by many businesses. Several of those businesses are sponsors for various PRS events. AR's on the contrary are user configurable and don't require the large of amount of gunsmithing and machining labor nor do they require $800-$1200 custom actions that are placed in $500-$2000 chasis systems. An AR capable of extreme performance costs far less than a comparable bolt gun.
I think you nailed this perfectly. Latest push from bolt guns makers is panic attack because Precision ARs are simply closing the gap...it’s all about the money at the end of the day...

But let’s not hijack this thread anymore. This is discussion for totally separate thread.
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