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Old 03-20-2017, 10:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIGA 5.45 View Post
The 69gr RAS is not slow though, very strange.
Problem with 69 is that it will cause problems in some US made barrels. It works good in com bloc stuff, but for some reason, US made 5.45 barrels are not so happy with it...
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:22 AM   #37
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Thanks for taking the time to put this together, OP. I am surprised wolf mil spec did decent. I figured they neutered it.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:30 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
Very good data. Thank you.
Basically Wolf 60gr, Tula 60gr and Red Army Std 60gr - all suck!
Red Army STD and Tula suck most.

This is consistent with my data.

Disappointing to see GT clocking slower than 7N6...still, better than the rest.

Honestly, we are getting fkn robbed on all that commercial ammo...there is no excuse for them to not clock around 2900fps...

Red Army STD 60gr average at 2464 fps?! GTFOH! That's almost 7.62x39 territory...
Lol, our exact thoughts.

RAS 60g and Tulammo sucks. Might as well have just shot 7.62x39 through there. Actually, Mattylight did fire a round or two from his NPAPDF to make sure the chrono was reading right, and whatever he was shooting was knocking on its back door velocity wise.

Wolf Mil spec did better, and GT a little worse than we expected.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:31 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
Problem with 69 is that it will cause problems in some US made barrels. It works good in com bloc stuff, but for some reason, US made 5.45 barrels are not so happy with it...
US made barrel Nyet!
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:31 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
Disappointing to see GT clocking slower than 7N6...still, better than the rest.

Honestly, we are getting fkn robbed on all that commercial ammo...there is no excuse for them to not clock around 2900fps...
Larry got 2900 fps from the new GT in his test.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryphoto View Post
Rifle 16" Bulgarian Kit build with CHF Commie barrel.

AK74 AK74
OLD GT 59gt New GT 59gt
Shot 1 2,891 2,948
Shot 2 2,878 2,974
Shot 3 2,825 2,918
Shot 4 2,882 2,893
Shot 5 2,875 2,953
AVG 2,870 2,930
Differance 60
Differance% 2.08%

AK74 16" all below avg of 5 shot group
7n6 53gr 3,071
Wolf 69gr 2,801
SilverBear 60gr 2,856
Monarch 60gr 2,811
OLD GT 59gt 2,870
New GT 59gt 2,930
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:36 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Akpuscifer View Post
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, OP. I am surprised wolf mil spec did decent. I figured they neutered it.
We all deserve the credit. Everybody pooled together to get as many types of 5.45x39 we could get our hands on.

Chknfkr brought out the SBR and RPK.

Mattylight had the chrono.

I just picked the short straw when it came to writing up the post.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:47 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burninglegs View Post
Larry got 2900 fps from the new GT in his test.
I did NOT realize this till after we got out there, but the previous GT I had shot came in packages with the rounds set in there with thick paper in between layers.

The next case I ordered were packaged in paper packets stapled on each end.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
I did NOT realize this till after we got out there, but the previous GT I had shot came in packages with the rounds set in there with thick paper in between layers.

The next case I ordered were packaged in paper packets stapled on each end.
Mine was the stapled paper packs as well. I can get you the lot number over lunch.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by chknfkr View Post
Mine was the stapled paper packs as well. I can get you the lot number over lunch.
I know I have some of the other left. I'll dig it out after work.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:31 AM   #45
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So was the GT you guys used a mix of the previous batch SGAmmo brought in and some of the most recent stuff?
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:37 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by burninglegs View Post
So was the GT you guys used a mix of the previous batch SGAmmo brought in and some of the most recent stuff?
It was the more recent stuff in the stapled paper package. It was when we made it out and started loading mags I discovered the difference in packaging.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:03 PM   #47
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Thanks for doing this, those results should be stickied
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:11 PM   #48
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Thanks for sharing. Some of the data from the 16" barrel is disappointing. It's not like someone is going to get shot, look down and say, "HA, that was only 2700 FPS instead of 2900 but then again the temp may have something to do with the numbers.

I would have though the Wolf mil-spec would have been faster, oh well.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:33 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cornpone View Post
Thanks for sharing. Some of the data from the 16" barrel is disappointing. It's not like someone is going to get shot, look down and say, "HA, that was only 2700 FPS instead of 2900 but then again the temp may have something to do with the numbers.

I would have though the Wolf mil-spec would have been faster, oh well.
I have conducted my tests in:

Temperature: 32.0 F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 50 % Altitude: 615.0 ft

My results are close to theirs. I had a larger sample base on 7n6, because i have collected data from 50 rounds. I'm also calculating BC values and checking all different zeros for 74 edition of the booklet.
Their findings on commercial ammo were also close match to what i have on Wolf 60gr (under powered, like a broken dick).

Now, that being said, you can work with Wolf 60gr with 25yds zero somehow effectively. This is how the table is shaping on it (you can basically using it to 350yds on human torso with 25yds zero):

Range Drop
(yd) (in)
0 -2.5
25 0
50 2.2
75 4
100 5.4
125 6.5
150 7.1
175 7.3
200 7
225 6.2
250 4.9
275 3
300 0.5
325 -2.7
350 -6.5
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:42 PM   #50
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Wow awesome data guys! We need a global sticky for this kind of chrono and accuracy data as well as general reviews on other minutiae such as powder, sealing etc (problems or variations from advertised specs).

Great job folks, really appreciate the hard work and foresight to shoot it, record it, and then post it for us. Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:57 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
I have conducted my tests in:

Temperature: 32.0 F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 50 % Altitude: 615.0 ft

My results are close to theirs. I had a larger sample base on 7n6, because i have collected data from 50 rounds. I'm also calculating BC values and checking all different zeros for 74 edition of the booklet.
Their findings on commercial ammo were also close match to what i have on Wolf 60gr (under powered, like a broken dick).

Now, that being said, you can work with Wolf 60gr with 25yds zero somehow effectively. This is how the table is shaping on it (you can basically using it to 350yds on human torso with 25yds zero):

Range Drop
(yd) (in)
0 -2.5
25 0
50 2.2
75 4
100 5.4
125 6.5
150 7.1
175 7.3
200 7
225 6.2
250 4.9
275 3
300 0.5
325 -2.7
350 -6.5
Thanks rob I usually zero a bit high with 7n6 at 50 on my red dots, seems to put me about dead on at 300 yards, last time out with wolf mil-spec I had to shoot a bit higher to make hits.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:29 PM   #52
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Rob what is the muzzle velocity for the 60gr 5.45 the AKOU chart will reflect? thx
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rev06 View Post
Rob what is the muzzle velocity for the 60gr 5.45 the AKOU chart will reflect? thx
Av 2637 FPS. Environmental conditions as posted above.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:19 PM   #54
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Thanks for the data
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H. E. Pennypacker View Post
Has anyone ever tried Hornady Black 5.45x39mm ammo? I know it might be too expensive for general plinking but would be cool to see how well it groups. I've seen it for sale from several places online. http://www.selwayarmory.com/hornady-...box-of-20.html
All indications point to it being the same as regular 5.45 VMAX, just a fancy box upgrade and marketing.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285288
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:55 PM   #56
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That 69 grain RAS is moving... Some very unimpressive velocities out of many of the other commercial ammos though. Thanks for doing the test guys. This should definitely be a sticky.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:15 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Night Owl View Post
I would delete the VMAX off of that list. I've heard lots of posters on here complain about the lack of accuracy in that round. Surprising since it's coming from Hornady and every other kind of round I've tried from them was very high quality ammo and at or near the top in the accuracy dept. for that particular caliber. They need to go back to the drawing board on that round. But if the projectile connects, it's got very good terminal performance.
From voron's post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by voron View Post
When Dave Emary (Hornady's chief ballistics specialist) was working on the 5,45 loads i met him at Dave's Big 3 back in 2011. He has brought a few boxes before the product hit the shelves.

with my match Vepr 5,45 using magnified 4x we were able to get consistent 2-2.5 inch groups @ 200 meters. Inaccurate. right. When i did the write up for the Book of the AK on the new Hornady Vmax load we were able to reproduce it, which showed consistency in ammo from the previous year.

intended for squirrels? are you fucking retarded? there would be nothing left if you hit a squirrel with that projectile within 300 meters. No meat to salvage. My friend hunts deer with the East German SSG-82. Very rapid expansion. awesome load.

the only drawback of the Hornady's vmax vs. 7N6 was shooting past 500 meters. Vmax is flatback vs 7N6 is boat tail. Hornady's spread was quite a bit more horizontally when i did testing vs. 7N6.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:27 PM   #58
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Below in RED I've figured the standard deviation for each group. It's a small data set, small enough most will say it's scientifically invalid. It is interesting all the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
SBR SLR104UR - AKS74U 8" barrel:

-Wolf Mil-Spec (Green Box) 60gr -

#1 - 2176
#2 - 2199
#3 - 2193
#4 - 2199
#5 - 2155
Av. - 2184

SD - 17


- New Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2319
#2 - 2204
#3 - 2228
#4 - 2293
#5 - 2293
Av. - 2267

SD - 38

- Red Army Standard 69gr - Ukrainian

#1 - 2219
#2 - 2161
#3 - 2149
#4 - 2132
#5 - 2104
Av. - 2153

SD - 38

- Silver Bear 60g 2013

#1 - 2149
#2 - 2142
#3 - 2247
#4 - 2181
#5 - 2223
Av. - 2188

SD - 41

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53g

#1 - 2328
#2 - 2346
#3 - 2272
#4 - 2358
#5 - 2398
Av. - 2340

SD - 41

- Red Army Standard 60gr Russian

#1 - 2029
#2 - 2011
#3 - 1992
#4 - 1993
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2009

SD - 15

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer Coated 60gr

#1 - 2280
#2 - 2279
#3 - 2257
#4 - 2221
#5 - 2216
Av. - 2250

SD - 28

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2050
#2 - 2056
#3 - 2021
#4 - 2028
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2035

SD - 15

- 82' Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2406
#2 - 2357
#3 - 2339
#4 - 2323
#5 - 2352
Av. - 2355

SD - 28

- 83' Lugansk/Ukrainian 53gr

#1 - 2354
#2 - 2350
#3 - 2337
#4 - 2310
#5 - 2451
Av. - 2360

SD - 48

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2217
#2 - 2275
#3 - 2220
#4 - 2295
#5 - 2243
Av. - 2250

SD - 31

Saiga - AK74 16" barrel

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2726
#2 - 2672
#3 - 2685
#4 - 2649
#5 - 2720
Av. - 2690

SD - 29

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2751
#2 - 2746
#3 - 2717
#4 - 2740
#5 - 2753
Av. - 2741

SD - 13

- Red Army Standard Russian 60gr

#1 - 2458
#2 - 2467
#3 - 2455
#4 - 2482
#5 - 2459
Av. - 2464

SD - 10

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2818
#2 - 2763
#3 - 2799
#4 - 2772
#5 - 2864
Av. - 2803

SD - 36

- Silver Bear 2013 60gr

#1 - 2741
#2 - 2748
#3 - 2766
#4 - 2796
#5 - 2769
Av. - 2764

SD - 19

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2974
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2894
#4 - 2894
#5 - 2874
Av. - 2909

SD - 34

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2517
#2 - 2519
#3 - 2456
#4 - 2447
#5 - 2423
Av. - 2472

SD - 39

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60gr

#1 - 2848
#2 - 2814
#3 - 2819
#4 - 2754
#5 - 2798
Av. - 2806

SD - 31

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2918
#2 - 2949
#3 - 2975
#4 - 2968
#5 - 2939
Av. - 2950

SD - 20

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2949
#2 - 2970
#3 - 2974
#4 - 2955
#5 - 2979
Av. - 2965

SD - 11

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2769
#2 - 2731
#3 - 2633
#4 - 2753
#5 - 2771
Av. - 2731

SD - 51

Vepr - RPK74M 23" Barrel

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3136
#2 - 3114
#3 - 3051
#4 - 3108
#5 - 3123
Av. - 3106

SD - 29

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2814
#2 - 2813
#3 - 2798
#4 - 2764
#5 - 2746
Av. - 2787

SD - 27

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2844
#2 - 2860
#3 - 2842
#4 - 2890
#5 - 2828
Av. - 2853

SD - 21

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2984
#2 - 2953
#3 - 2939
#4 - 2871
#5 - 2925
Av. - 2934

SD - 37

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2585
#2 - 2427
#3 - 2475
#4 - 2555
#5 - 2551
Av. - 2519

SD - 58

- Silver Bear 60gr

#1 - 2873
#2 - 2856
#3 - 2853
#4 - 2832
#5 - 2914
Av. - 2866

SD - 27

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60g

#1 - 2919
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2914
#4 - 2875
#5 - 2896
Av. - 2903

SD - 16

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2992
#2 - 3046
#3 - 3015
#4 - 3020
#5 - 3023
Av. - 3019

SD - 17

- Red Army Standard 60gr

#1 - 2623
#2 - 2515
#3 - 2544
#4 - 2494
#5 - 2498
Av. - 2535

SD - 47

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3054
#2 - 3035
#3 - 3071
#4 - 3053
#5 - 3016
Av. - 3046

SD - 19

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60g

#1 - 2846
#2 - 2893
#3 - 2855
#4 - 2812
#5 - 2884
Av. - 2858

SD - 29
and over in the other thread Voron brings up a good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by voron View Post
i know lots of people here like differentiate the types of 7N6 ammo, calling it Ukrainian, Lugansk, Russian...but 7N6 is 7N6 no matter where it was manufactured. It was done on the same tooling, with same specs across Soviet Union in the late 70s and all the way through the 80s. I have shot and chronod 7N6 dating to 1975 and and late as 1984. It is a myth that the early 90s (10) Bulgarian ammo is any hotter than Soviet made. Same goes for the rare (11) Polish Radom 7N6. its all done to the same specs. Few years ago i came across white box Romanian "match" 5,45x39 ammo. it came in a white carton box, 20 rounds each. Sealant was a dark purple colour, like current Golden Tiger has, not reddish like traditional 7N6. when i pulled the bullet weight and did a few powder charges, it was nothing but traditional 7N6. It shot the same as any other 7N6

average velocities are ALWAYS around 3000 fps give and take.

the 539 is the Tula factory manufactured ammo is 1981. out of all the batches that i shot, best grouping (very, very little fliers) credits to 270 (lugansk) 1982 batch. I think i shot a 740 ( i know, its not that great for a pro) during a High Power regulation match few year ago

p.s. i cannot believe this thread is still going. LOL
I couldn't agree more. All 7n6 is 7n6. I dont sort my 7n6, in fact Rmiller and Mattylight saw that this weekend. I had mixed lots of manufacturers and years all loaded up in the same mags. So treating all of the 7n6 the same and using the data above we get the following averages and standard deviation using a 15 shot group:

8.25" AKS-74U 7n6
Average velocity: 2352
Standard deviation: 40

16" siaga 7n6
Average velocity: 2942
Standard deviation: 34

23" RPK-74M 7n6
Average velocity: 3057
Standard deviation: 43
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:45 PM   #59
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Thanks for sorting ot the standard deviation .
I found it very interesting.
I started to do it but looking at it on a phone was a PITA.

I see you guys shot in IL . how far south of the border are you??
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chknfkr View Post
Below in RED I've figured the standard deviation for each group. It's a small data set, small enough most will say it's scientifically invalid. It is interesting all the same.



and over in the other thread Voron brings up a good point



I couldn't agree more. All 7n6 is 7n6. I dont sort my 7n6, in fact Rmiller and Mattylight saw that this weekend. I had mixed lots of manufacturers and years all loaded up in the same mags. So treating all of the 7n6 the same and using the data above we get the following averages and standard deviation using a 15 shot group:

8.25" AKS-74U 7n6
Average velocity: 2352
Standard deviation: 40

16" siaga 7n6
Average velocity: 2942
Standard deviation: 34

23" RPK-74M 7n6
Average velocity: 3057
Standard deviation: 43
So if Plouffedaddy is averaging 2553 out of his 104ur, and all 7n6 is 7n6, why the discrepancy, weather conditions maybe, how far away are you placing the chrono?



skip to 1:40 seconds.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:17 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Thanks for sorting ot the standard deviation .
I found it very interesting.
I started to do it but looking at it on a phone was a PITA.

I see you guys shot in IL . how far south of the border are you??
We were shooting about 180 miles south of the Wisconsin/Illinois border. Where are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIGA 5.45 View Post
So if Plouffedaddy is averaging 2553 out of his 104ur, and all 7n6 is 7n6, why the discrepancy, weather conditions maybe, how far away are you placing the chrono?



skip to 1:40 seconds.
Elevation probably plays a role, but I'm guessing temperature plays a bigger role. Mike is in sunny South Carolina.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:28 PM   #62
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For those who don't know what standard deviation is
Here is a decent explination with out getting into square root type stuff.

Quote:
It isthe deviation from the standard.

Example: 3,000 to 3030 velocity range, 3015 average, if you can add or subtract 5 fps and cover most of the shots then your SD is 5.
If it takes 10 fps then your SD is 10. It is not necessary to cover 100% of the shots. In a group of 5, I would be happy to cover 3
or 4. In a group of 10 7-8 would be fine.
In a 5 shot group extreme spread is likely a better indicator .

If say 500 rounds were shot and the extra spread ( differance from fastest tp slowest) was 150 FPS but the standard deviation was under say 10 you would have a good average of consistant velocity for your ammo with a couple round way off and would likely result in fliers.

What's concerning is a extreme spread of over 120 FPS or so with only 5 shots.

A few factors can affect things in a 5 shot run .
Barrel temp of first shot, weather a barrel is clean or lubricated,neck tension , bullet uniformity or varying surface bearing area,
Powder charge, primer inconsistantsy or ease of powder to ignition, powder density or even how it's lying in a case, the amount of free bore and neck tension consistancy. The list goes on.
It dosent take a lot to throw off a light bullet with a small case capacity were even a 1/4 grain makes a much bigger differance than a larger round were a simular change is a smaller percentage.

You guys did a lot of work here in a short time.
I find the Hornady numbers the most puzzeling.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
It was the more recent stuff in the stapled paper package. It was when we made it out and started loading mags I discovered the difference in packaging.
My New GT came in 20rd boxes with paper between every 4 rounds, no staples on them at all. Box top flap said C-03-16

I will check the boxes of the OLD GT when I return home.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
We were shooting about 180 miles south of the Wisconsin/Illinois border. Where are you?
About 50 miles north of that same border when I'm home..
South of Madison north of Jainsville.
I sure wish I kept my 5.45 dies .
I'd like to see what a couple of your rifles did with reloaded steel cases with percision weighed powder charges.

If those shots are listed in order then a cold bore or lubed bore are likely out as variance causes.

Frankely I'd be contacting Hornady for answers.
There better than this on ammo I have ran through a chrony. ( not that much)
Perhaps they might answer.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:56 PM   #65
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Elevation probably plays a role, but I'm guessing temperature plays a bigger role. Mike is in sunny South Carolina.
Some powders really are affected by temps.
I had abut a 500 hand loads near max that shot fine in testing in the early spring in WI.
late June in South dakota at about 90 degrees I was popping primers and having a really bad day.

I'd suspect Russian surplus would have powders with less temp sensitivity . You guys would know better than me. I just know it gets really cold there so it would make sense. Then again powders gave come a long ways in the last 30 years.

Last edited by 1biggun; 03-20-2017 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
For those who don't know what standard deviation is
Here is a decent explination with out getting into square root type stuff.



In a 5 shot group extreme spread is likely a better indicator .

If say 500 rounds were shot and the extra spread ( differance from fastest tp slowest) was 150 FPS but the standard deviation was under say 10 you would have a good average of consistant velocity for your ammo with a couple round way off and would likely result in fliers.

What's concerning is a extreme spread of over 120 FPS or so with only 5 shots.

A few factors can affect things in a 5 shot run .
Barrel temp of first shot, weather a barrel is clean or lubricated,neck tension , bullet uniformity or varying surface bearing area,
Powder charge, primer inconsistantsy or ease of powder to ignition, powder density or even how it's lying in a case, the amount of free bore and neck tension consistancy. The list goes on.
It dosent take a lot to throw off a light bullet with a small case capacity were even a 1/4 grain makes a much bigger differance than a larger round were a simular change is a smaller percentage.

You guys did a lot of work here in a short time.
I find the Hornady numbers the most puzzeling.
Yeah, the SD numbers aren't very telling considering the sample size. We had a lot of ammo to run through 3 guns and only a couple hours from set up to tear down. In the future we have even more ammo varieties, and rifles to test. Hopefully we'll be able to collect more data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
About 50 miles north of that same border when I'm home..
South of Madison north of Jainsville.
I sure wish I kept my 5.45 dies .
I'd like to see what a couple of your rifles did with reloaded steel cases with percision weighed powder charges.

If those shots are listed in order then a cold bore or lubed bore are likely out as variance causes.

Frankely I'd be contacting Hornady for answers.
There better than this on ammo I have ran through a chrony. ( not that much)
Perhaps they might answer.
I'll see if we can't make that happen!

They are listed in the order they were shot. Only that first mag in each gun had a cold bore. I am pretty dissapointed in the Hornady results. I expected much better from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Some powders really are affected by temps.
I had abut a 500 hand loads near max that shot fine in testing in the early spring in WI.
late June in South dakota at about 90 degrees I was popping primers and having a really bad day.

I'd suspect Russian surplus would have powders with less temp sensitivity . You guys would know better than me. I just know it gets really cold there so it would make sense. Then again powders gave come a long ways in the last 30 years.
I can't speak for the commercial as it seems to vary from brand to brand and potentially lot to lot even, but the 7n6 is all 30 years old give or take 5 years. If anything is going to be temperature sensitive, it would be the 7n6 I would think.
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The MANY uses of an AK cleaning kit and rod



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Old 03-20-2017, 11:35 PM   #67
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One would think military ammo would be pretty well researched and tested in all temps.
Ours do.

Age of the ammo is a very valid .
Some of that 7n6 has been stored I. Who knows were and how and it what temps it's been stored in all those years.

I'd really like to know the story of the Hornady steel cases were there from who made them, who actually loaded them and whos powder .

Either there likely importing empty primed cases and loading them or there having it made some were for them.
Either way there not worth the asking price.
The few bolt guns I know about also had poor accuracy with this stuff.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:13 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
All credit is shared between Mattylight30, chknfkr, and I (RMiller).

Rifles used in this test were.

1). SBR'd SLR104UR.

2). Converted Saiga 5.45.

3). Converted Vepr IV RPK.

A little info on our surroundings:

58 degrees, 50% Humidity, Some wind up to 17mph. Elevation is 589ft above sea level.

All of these were done at random.Each mag loaded with a box of amm. 5 shots for ea rifle.

SBR SLR104UR - AKS74U 8" barrel:

-Wolf Mil-Spec (Green Box) 60gr -

#1 - 2176
#2 - 2199
#3 - 2193
#4 - 2199
#5 - 2155
Av. - 2184


- New Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2319
#2 - 2204
#3 - 2228
#4 - 2293
#5 - 2293
Av. - 2267

- Red Army Standard 69gr - Ukrainian

#1 - 2219
#2 - 2161
#3 - 2149
#4 - 2132
#5 - 2104
Av. - 2153

- Silver Bear 60g 2013

#1 - 2149
#2 - 2142
#3 - 2247
#4 - 2181
#5 - 2223
Av. - 2188

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53g

#1 - 2328
#2 - 2346
#3 - 2272
#4 - 2358
#5 - 2398
Av. - 2340

- Red Army Standard 60gr Russian

#1 - 2029
#2 - 2011
#3 - 1992
#4 - 1993
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2009

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer Coated 60gr

#1 - 2280
#2 - 2279
#3 - 2257
#4 - 2221
#5 - 2216
Av. - 2250

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2050
#2 - 2056
#3 - 2021
#4 - 2028
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2035

- 82' Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2406
#2 - 2357
#3 - 2339
#4 - 2323
#5 - 2352
Av. - 2355

- 83' Lugansk/Ukrainian 53gr

#1 - 2354
#2 - 2350
#3 - 2337
#4 - 2310
#5 - 2451
Av. - 2360

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2217
#2 - 2275
#3 - 2220
#4 - 2295
#5 - 2243
Av. - 2250

Saiga - AK74 16" barrel

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2726
#2 - 2672
#3 - 2685
#4 - 2649
#5 - 2720
Av. - 2690

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2751
#2 - 2746
#3 - 2717
#4 - 2740
#5 - 2753
Av. - 2741

- Red Army Standard Russian 60gr

#1 - 2458
#2 - 2467
#3 - 2455
#4 - 2482
#5 - 2459
Av. - 2464

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2818
#2 - 2763
#3 - 2799
#4 - 2772
#5 - 2864
Av. - 2803

- Silver Bear 2013 60gr

#1 - 2741
#2 - 2748
#3 - 2766
#4 - 2796
#5 - 2769
Av. - 2764

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2974
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2894
#4 - 2894
#5 - 2874
Av. - 2909

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2517
#2 - 2519
#3 - 2456
#4 - 2447
#5 - 2423
Av. - 2472

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60gr

#1 - 2848
#2 - 2814
#3 - 2819
#4 - 2754
#5 - 2798
Av. - 2806

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2918
#2 - 2949
#3 - 2975
#4 - 2968
#5 - 2939
Av. - 2950

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2949
#2 - 2970
#3 - 2974
#4 - 2955
#5 - 2979
Av. - 2965

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2769
#2 - 2731
#3 - 2633
#4 - 2753
#5 - 2771
Av. - 2731

Vepr - RPK74M 23" Barrel

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3136
#2 - 3114
#3 - 3051
#4 - 3108
#5 - 3123
Av. - 3106

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2814
#2 - 2813
#3 - 2798
#4 - 2764
#5 - 2746
Av. - 2787

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2844
#2 - 2860
#3 - 2842
#4 - 2890
#5 - 2828
Av. - 2853

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2984
#2 - 2953
#3 - 2939
#4 - 2871
#5 - 2925
Av. - 2934

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2585
#2 - 2427
#3 - 2475
#4 - 2555
#5 - 2551
Av. - 2519

- Silver Bear 60gr

#1 - 2873
#2 - 2856
#3 - 2853
#4 - 2832
#5 - 2914
Av. - 2866

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60g

#1 - 2919
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2914
#4 - 2875
#5 - 2896
Av. - 2903

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2992
#2 - 3046
#3 - 3015
#4 - 3020
#5 - 3023
Av. - 3019

- Red Army Standard 60gr

#1 - 2623
#2 - 2515
#3 - 2544
#4 - 2494
#5 - 2498
Av. - 2535

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3054
#2 - 3035
#3 - 3071
#4 - 3053
#5 - 3016
Av. - 3046

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60g

#1 - 2846
#2 - 2893
#3 - 2855
#4 - 2812
#5 - 2884
Av. - 2858

Now for the CRUDE accuracy part of the test. We only bothered to do this for the Converted Saiga AK74 due to time constraints. Each picture is abbreviated with the ammo type used. Groups can be matched up to the readings above as they were shot at the same time.

Groups were shot at 25yds with a Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot/RS Regulate Combo. Even though the groups below aren't definitive, they should give a rough estimate on which will tend to be more accurate.


























Pic of our ugly mugs.



wow everything except 7n6,GT and the Ukrainian RAS is horribly underloaded . tula is getting 7.62x39mm velocity
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpletrader View Post
wow everything except 7n6,GT and the Ukrainian RAS is horribly underloaded . tula is getting 7.62x39mm velocity
Silver Bear is good. Usually gets in the 2830-2850 range, but based on the weather the testing as done in, could be the reason why they were only getting 2760 range.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:10 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMiller View Post
All credit is shared between Mattylight30, chknfkr, and I (RMiller).

Rifles used in this test were.

1). SBR'd SLR104UR.

2). Converted Saiga 5.45.

3). Converted Vepr IV RPK.

A little info on our surroundings:

58 degrees, 50% Humidity, Some wind up to 17mph. Elevation is 589ft above sea level.

All of these were done at random.Each mag loaded with a box of amm. 5 shots for ea rifle.

SBR SLR104UR - AKS74U 8" barrel:

-Wolf Mil-Spec (Green Box) 60gr -

#1 - 2176
#2 - 2199
#3 - 2193
#4 - 2199
#5 - 2155
Av. - 2184


- New Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2319
#2 - 2204
#3 - 2228
#4 - 2293
#5 - 2293
Av. - 2267

- Red Army Standard 69gr - Ukrainian

#1 - 2219
#2 - 2161
#3 - 2149
#4 - 2132
#5 - 2104
Av. - 2153

- Silver Bear 60g 2013

#1 - 2149
#2 - 2142
#3 - 2247
#4 - 2181
#5 - 2223
Av. - 2188

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53g

#1 - 2328
#2 - 2346
#3 - 2272
#4 - 2358
#5 - 2398
Av. - 2340

- Red Army Standard 60gr Russian

#1 - 2029
#2 - 2011
#3 - 1992
#4 - 1993
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2009

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer Coated 60gr

#1 - 2280
#2 - 2279
#3 - 2257
#4 - 2221
#5 - 2216
Av. - 2250

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2050
#2 - 2056
#3 - 2021
#4 - 2028
#5 - 2020
Av. - 2035

- 82' Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2406
#2 - 2357
#3 - 2339
#4 - 2323
#5 - 2352
Av. - 2355

- 83' Lugansk/Ukrainian 53gr

#1 - 2354
#2 - 2350
#3 - 2337
#4 - 2310
#5 - 2451
Av. - 2360

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2217
#2 - 2275
#3 - 2220
#4 - 2295
#5 - 2243
Av. - 2250

Saiga - AK74 16" barrel

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2726
#2 - 2672
#3 - 2685
#4 - 2649
#5 - 2720
Av. - 2690

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2751
#2 - 2746
#3 - 2717
#4 - 2740
#5 - 2753
Av. - 2741

- Red Army Standard Russian 60gr

#1 - 2458
#2 - 2467
#3 - 2455
#4 - 2482
#5 - 2459
Av. - 2464

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2818
#2 - 2763
#3 - 2799
#4 - 2772
#5 - 2864
Av. - 2803

- Silver Bear 2013 60gr

#1 - 2741
#2 - 2748
#3 - 2766
#4 - 2796
#5 - 2769
Av. - 2764

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2974
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2894
#4 - 2894
#5 - 2874
Av. - 2909

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2517
#2 - 2519
#3 - 2456
#4 - 2447
#5 - 2423
Av. - 2472

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60gr

#1 - 2848
#2 - 2814
#3 - 2819
#4 - 2754
#5 - 2798
Av. - 2806

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2918
#2 - 2949
#3 - 2975
#4 - 2968
#5 - 2939
Av. - 2950

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2949
#2 - 2970
#3 - 2974
#4 - 2955
#5 - 2979
Av. - 2965

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60gr

#1 - 2769
#2 - 2731
#3 - 2633
#4 - 2753
#5 - 2771
Av. - 2731

Vepr - RPK74M 23" Barrel

- 1982 Tula 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3136
#2 - 3114
#3 - 3051
#4 - 3108
#5 - 3123
Av. - 3106

- Red Army Standard Ukrainian 69gr

#1 - 2814
#2 - 2813
#3 - 2798
#4 - 2764
#5 - 2746
Av. - 2787

- Wolf Mil Spec (Green Box) 60gr

#1 - 2844
#2 - 2860
#3 - 2842
#4 - 2890
#5 - 2828
Av. - 2853

- NEW Golden Tiger 59gr

#1 - 2984
#2 - 2953
#3 - 2939
#4 - 2871
#5 - 2925
Av. - 2934

- TulAmmo 60gr

#1 - 2585
#2 - 2427
#3 - 2475
#4 - 2555
#5 - 2551
Av. - 2519

- Silver Bear 60gr

#1 - 2873
#2 - 2856
#3 - 2853
#4 - 2832
#5 - 2914
Av. - 2866

- Hornady VMAX Lacquer 60g

#1 - 2919
#2 - 2912
#3 - 2914
#4 - 2875
#5 - 2896
Av. - 2903

- 1980 Ulyanovsk 7n6 53gr

#1 - 2992
#2 - 3046
#3 - 3015
#4 - 3020
#5 - 3023
Av. - 3019

- Red Army Standard 60gr

#1 - 2623
#2 - 2515
#3 - 2544
#4 - 2494
#5 - 2498
Av. - 2535

- 1983 Lugansk Ukrainian 7n6 53gr

#1 - 3054
#2 - 3035
#3 - 3071
#4 - 3053
#5 - 3016
Av. - 3046

- Hornady VMAX Poly 60g

#1 - 2846
#2 - 2893
#3 - 2855
#4 - 2812
#5 - 2884
Av. - 2858

Now for the CRUDE accuracy part of the test. We only bothered to do this for the Converted Saiga AK74 due to time constraints. Each picture is abbreviated with the ammo type used. Groups can be matched up to the readings above as they were shot at the same time.

Groups were shot at 25yds with a Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot/RS Regulate Combo. Even though the groups below aren't definitive, they should give a rough estimate on which will tend to be more accurate.


























Pic of our ugly mugs.

Excellent work! Man that is great stuff. Nice to see Golden TIger living up to it's name. Actually surprised on how hot it was.
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