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Old 09-13-2017, 03:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by GoNoGo View Post
The A.R. 15 is a very good and versatile firearm when chambered in 5,56.. one that I won't be without. The Ruger AR 556 is an incredible value when priced in the low to mid 400s.

Here's a m85np 223 carbine (ex pistol) with 8" bone steel rh folder and cnc warrior perm installed barrel ext. Below it is the common m90np 223 rifle with surplus furniture. I have around 750 wrapped up into each of them as they sit


Nicely done^^^
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #37
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Galil
fullautoassault - "I second that"



I'll make that a "I third that".
Galil baby, nothing more durable or reliable, nothing.
The new Ace is fine, but for me, I'll stay with the original type Galil, thanks.
Oh yeah, that X95 is fantastic too!


mancat - I don't think there are very many people, if any at all, who are in "complete avoidance of the platform based on it's initial introductory issues in Vietnam."
I've had many AR-15's, at least 30, and I still have one, maybe I'll do another one, but, I personally prefer the Kalashnikov design, the Galil in particular, because it's vastly more durable, rugged, and reliable.

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Old 09-13-2017, 04:59 PM   #38
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I have three ARs, one with an FN CHF/CL barrel, the other two 4150 button rifled nitride. I shoot almost exclusively steel case in all three, not a single issue. However I only shoot Barnaul-made .223 as it seems to be the cleanest, and had issues with Tula even in a Saiga .223 in the past.

Each of those ARs cost on average around 500-600 to put together.

I am not suggesting the AR is superior to the AK in general but I do not understand the complete avoidance of the platform based on it's initial introductory issues in Vietnam.
Having no issue means nothing, shot them as long as chrome lined together and check your accuracy which eventualy will be worse on non chrome lined one. Not every AK is as good as well, Vepr, Arsenal and Wasr are so far. Also check recent test on Adams arms AR made by Iraqveteran8888 Ch on youtube and compare to his test on Vepr. It is funny to watch on how crappy cheap AR is, it is toy which is made for kids Again, really good AR like made by LWRC or Daniel or HK or Bravo, will cost you much more than Vepr use to cost.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:01 PM   #39
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Having no issue means nothing,
You said you can't shoot steel cased in ARs.. I do so routinely with no reliability issues.

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shot them as long as chrome lined together and check your accuracy which eventualy will be worse on non chrome lined one.
I have yet to hear of anyone wearing out any of the new production 4140/4150 nitride AR or AK barrels out on the market, though the process hasn't been popular in commodity rifles for that long, so the general shooting public may not have had time to put that many rounds collectively down nitride .223 barrels.

I have maybe 1.5-2k through a 74 build on a AK Builder nitride 4150 barrel and there is zero visible wear or any hint of frosting/etc.. Meanwhile I do have a Saiga .223 with somewhere near 6k rounds through it (almost all steel case) and it has very noticable throat wear, chipping and erosion of the lands at the throat leade, but the rest of the barrel is fine. I wouldn't consider a Saiga to be a low quality AK but this is fairly poor performance/longevity from a CHF/CL barrel and not at all typical of what is usually seen.

At least when the barrel wears out on an AR it is fairly easily swapped vs. an AK, at least for the average shade tree gunsmith.

I love .223 AKs as well.. That is why I plan on building another soon.

Any way I won't derail the thread any further.. I just was curious why OP so adamantly wants to avoid the AR. I have had zero issues with them and I don't treat them nicely or feed them top dollar ammo, just treat them like AKs even down to lubing with motor oil.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:18 AM   #40
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You said you can't shoot steel cased in ARs.. I do so routinely with no reliability issues.



I have yet to hear of anyone wearing out any of the new production 4140/4150 nitride AR or AK barrels out on the market, though the process hasn't been popular in commodity rifles for that long, so the general shooting public may not have had time to put that many rounds collectively down nitride .223 barrels.

I have maybe 1.5-2k through a 74 build on a AK Builder nitride 4150 barrel and there is zero visible wear or any hint of frosting/etc.. Meanwhile I do have a Saiga .223 with somewhere near 6k rounds through it (almost all steel case) and it has very noticable throat wear, chipping and erosion of the lands at the throat leade, but the rest of the barrel is fine. I wouldn't consider a Saiga to be a low quality AK but this is fairly poor performance/longevity from a CHF/CL barrel and not at all typical of what is usually seen.

At least when the barrel wears out on an AR it is fairly easily swapped vs. an AK, at least for the average shade tree gunsmith.

I love .223 AKs as well.. That is why I plan on building another soon.

Any way I won't derail the thread any further.. I just was curious why OP so adamantly wants to avoid the AR. I have had zero issues with them and I don't treat them nicely or feed them top dollar ammo, just treat them like AKs even down to lubing with motor oil.
To be short - 2k shots in 10 years period is showing nothing to me, I shot no less than 600 rounds in one range day. Try yourself test like iraqveteran8888 does and you will see your cheap barrel with di gas system will melt pretty quick. It is toy, Barbie for casual/week ends shooters By the time my Vepr's will become bad, my grandson will have $ for replacing them, no needs on new upper or other AR related things
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:11 AM   #41
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To be short - 2k shots in 10 years period is showing nothing to me, I shot no less than 600 rounds in one range day. Try yourself test like iraqveteran8888 does and you will see your cheap barrel with di gas system will melt pretty quick. It is toy, Barbie for casual/week ends shooters
Even in a firefight, you won't be doing mag dump after mag dump like this. Perhaps if you were on in fire team and had some kind of squad type full-auto rifle and were laying down heavy suppressive fire, but no carbine will ever see this type of abuse unless artificially exposed to it like the video you're referencing. Carbines or assault style rifles may fire a few burst of 1-3 shots at any given time in a realistic scenario. Any more and you're probably thinking about Hollywood.
All being said, I don't necessarily disagree with your statements about the durability of the platforms. Just the perceived intended use of them. Either will [and do] do well for their intended uses.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:37 AM   #42
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Wish they didn't have the ar magwells.
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Old 09-14-2017, 09:32 PM   #43
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^^^ Kinda nice actually.

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Old 09-15-2017, 08:25 PM   #44
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https://i.imgur.com/MUz9k5w.jpg

Yeah, buying the mags suck, but I love my 84s. Just traded my 2nd 84s.
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:29 PM   #45
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Even in a firefight, you won't be doing mag dump after mag dump like this. Perhaps if you were on in fire team and had some kind of squad type full-auto rifle and were laying down heavy suppressive fire, but no carbine will ever see this type of abuse unless artificially exposed to it like the video you're referencing. Carbines or assault style rifles may fire a few burst of 1-3 shots at any given time in a realistic scenario. Any more and you're probably thinking about Hollywood.
All being said, I don't necessarily disagree with your statements about the durability of the platforms. Just the perceived intended use of them. Either will [and do] do well for their intended uses.
Point is - AK like Vepr or Arsenals could withhold much higher shooting dumps with steel ammo abuse and high temperatures and will last way longer than cheap!!! AR15. Good AR like Daniel, LWRC etc will cost you twice or more than good AK. I hope you understend what I mean, I don't need to do magazine dump but I could if I need, that is important to me. I am not thinking about Hollywood, I served with fully automatic Russian AK back in Soviet Union part of my life, that was AKM, AK74, RPK etc.
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Old 09-15-2017, 11:39 PM   #46
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Not sure what I'll do; I detest the AR platform. I don't want one in the least. Galil's are badass, but totally out of my price range. I'll just keep my eyes open...

My .223 Saiga is great, very dependable. It's just that living in CA, I get paranoid and feel I have to keep buying as much as I can while I can. I like the Pioneer because I dont have many of those classy wood range rifle types. My rifles are mostly "evil" looking with pistol grips.

The big ammo background check BS kicks in January 1,2018. I'm dreading it like a plague.
Does the ammo background check affect reloaders? Can you still ship reloading supplies to your door?
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Old 09-16-2017, 09:09 AM   #47
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wait till zastava sends over more M85NPs. that's what i'm waiting for. never say never! but we may be waiting awhile.
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Old 09-16-2017, 07:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Zemlyak View Post
Point is - AK like Vepr or Arsenals could withhold much higher shooting dumps with steel ammo abuse and high temperatures and will last way longer than cheap!!! AR15. Good AR like Daniel, LWRC etc will cost you twice or more than good AK. I hope you understend what I mean, I don't need to do magazine dump but I could if I need, that is important to me. I am not thinking about Hollywood, I served with fully automatic Russian AK back in Soviet Union part of my life, that was AKM, AK74, RPK etc.
One doesn't need to go to a $1600 DD or LWRC to get a suitable AR. You can grab a good BCM or COLT for under $1000 which is what Arsenal and VEPR go for under normal [non-panic] circumstances.
AK's do do better with steal cased ammo. They may even go longer under extreme heat than AR's can. [I'm talking 6+ mags of dumping ammo]
But if you've served, then you know as well as I do what is needed from a combat ready carbine. And both types have good options under $1000. Each have small advantages and disadvantages of their own from there. But both are good rifles.
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Old 09-17-2017, 04:54 AM   #49
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One doesn't need to go to a $1600 DD or LWRC to get a suitable AR. You can grab a good BCM or COLT for under $1000 which is what Arsenal and VEPR go for under normal [non-panic] circumstances.
AK's do do better with steal cased ammo. They may even go longer under extreme heat than AR's can. [I'm talking 6+ mags of dumping ammo]
But if you've served, then you know as well as I do what is needed from a combat ready carbine. And both types have good options under $1000. Each have small advantages and disadvantages of their own from there. But both are good rifles.
My only AR is Windham MPC and it is chrome lined Yes you could get good AR for $1k but compatible to Vepr unfortunatly no
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Old 09-17-2017, 08:52 AM   #50
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AR's being a modular design firearm.., is one of their great assets.

This allows one to upgrade/change to a different barrel type..,chrome, stainless nitride etc.., as well as a different twist rate, length, thickness/diameter, caliber etc. as well as due to wear. It is simple and requires little or no tools and only very basic shop skills.

Far superior to the options in an AK pattern rifle barrel swap, barrel lining, diameter, length type etc.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:00 AM   #51
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My only AR is Windham MPC and it is chrome lined Yes you could get good AR for $1k but compatible to Vepr unfortunatly no
VEPR to AR are kind of apples and oranges.
My VEPR FM in 7.62 and my main Frankin-AR in 5.56 are two different animals all together. Not sure a VEPR in 223 would be even be close to as handy as my AR.
That being said, I do really want an lighter AK in 5.56 as a general warfighter's rifle. Even then, it's not something that should be directly compared to an AR.
I'd trust the AK a bit more during adverse conditions, but the AR would probably be a bit more accurate. The Ak could probably get beat on a little harder, but the AR would still be lighter. The AR arguable has more ergonomic functions as well. I know you can train and get pretty fast on the AK, but with an equal amount of training I believe one could be even faster on the AR.

No doubt The VEPR is the more robust of the rifles we're talking about.
Just like a HMMWV is a solid vehicle and will do well in rough terrain, but an F150 will take you down the same dirt road, and probably do it faster.
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Old 09-17-2017, 09:23 AM   #52
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AR's being a modular design firearm.., is one of their great assets.

This allows one to upgrade/change to a different barrel type..,chrome, stainless nitride etc.., as well as a different twist rate, length, thickness/diameter, caliber etc. as well as due to wear. It is simple and requires little or no tools and only very basic shop skills.

Far superior to the options in an AK pattern rifle barrel swap, barrel lining, diameter, length type etc.
AKBLUE is absolutely correct about all of the above. Must be why I keep putting together different ARs!
11.5" pistols are my favorites right now. No issues with steel cased herters 223 so far.

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Old 09-17-2017, 12:38 PM   #53
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A $400 AR with a non chrome or nitride barrel will hold good accuracy for over 5000 rounds if you don't cook it.
Been there and done that on several 223 AKs.
The barrel will still out shoot a 5.45 at 6000 rounds and is still zombie accurate. They just are not as accurate as when new.
So after $1800 worth of ammo you need a barrel big whoop

A replacement barrel is $65 for the cheapest AR or when the original is shot out upgrade to chrome or something else .
You can buy cheap uppers with barrel for $150 these days.
spending a $1000 or more on a AR dosent buy a lot more reliability it either buys you a name or a high end barrel.
my last AR build was under $400 snd has a nitrided barrel and carrier even has carbon fiber handguard and a stock and grip up grade.
I Love My AK'S but when I can assemble two AR'S for the same money guys what the kid gets for Christmas.

I'm a big 223 AK fan there a great gun when done right I have 5 at last count. All home built only one gas a factory chrome lined barrel. The other 4 are very accurate.
I'd take the accuracy over barrel life.
Replacing a barrel at 6000 rounds or more is less than a penny per shot.

It's a shame a US AK builder can't step up and offer a good 223 AK variant and add a cantalever rail or at least a RSB that can take one. A AR mag option would not hurt but there are decent 223 AK mag options that don't break the bank. Especially when guys are talking $1000 for a rifle already.

If I wasn't a builder and wanted a 223 AK I'd gather the parts and have one built before buying a factory gun. I'd have the barrel made and spend a little extra there.
A sub moa or better 223 AK is a joy to shoot.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:05 PM   #54
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Why screw around with over priced AK's ? Now is the time to pop for a AR at give away prices. Just make sure the barrel is a "H-Bar" which means heavy grade barrel. And it's stamped 5.56x39, one in seven twist so you hold tight patterns with 62 & 77 grain rds. loads. I shoot Russian steel case ammo all the time with out issue. Just keep the chamber CLEAN.

That said I've recently built a few AR that have 7.62x39 uppers and shoot steel case ammo, no problem. Just use C-Products Gen3 mags and stay away from Tula ammo. At the range my AR15 7.62x39 constantly outshoots all my AK's including my Saiga's.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:26 AM   #55
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+1 for the M90NP if you can get one.

Zastava M90NP 556 AK by BosanaCZ, on Flickr
Zastava M90NP 556 AK by BosanaCZ, on Flickr
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Old 09-20-2017, 06:56 AM   #56
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+1 for the M90NP if you can get one.
I'd love to find one local that I could inspect before buying. That or find one unfired. Here's to dreaming.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:34 PM   #57
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Wow... Iím seldom impressed with polymer but the FDE furniture/mag really makes you m90ís lines pop, I like !!
Thanks neighbor. I was looking for all OD Green but couldn't find the Archangel in OD to match. And yes, I do like the Archangel stock even though I'm not big on polymer AK stuff like Rob Ski is.
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Old 09-20-2017, 04:26 PM   #58
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I'd love to find one local that I could inspect before buying. That or find one unfired. Here's to dreaming.
Not that much to inspect. Other than a few with canted gas blocks they seem to be good to go.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:25 PM   #59
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Just keep looking on Gunbroker and you can find some decent deals on good stuff. I was in the same boat back in 2016 and wanted a 5.56 Ak. I thought about getting one with and AR mag conversion but just didn't really want a half-breed. I realized it was going to be my only one so I was willing to pay more to get what I wanted.

I won a SAM-5 on GB but then the deal fell apart when the guy didn't want to send it to CA (actually to AZ for the compliance work, but I digress). I was bummed out but then a 2 weeks later I found a Arsenal K-101 for $300 less that I would have paid for the SAM-5. I now have a fantastic milled 5.56 AK that I love and shoot the crap out of it.

Remember to try a bunch of different search terms. People spell model names wrong sometimes and they don't show up in a normal search. Good luck!
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:52 AM   #60
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What I got to scratch my 5.56 AK itch.

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320996
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:41 AM   #61
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Oh my, great choice, congrats on the big V !!
Thank you.
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