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Old 02-25-2018, 02:20 PM   #1
Rob Ski
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Default HK G28E sniper rifle - Nobody wants them...

It beats me how this is even happening? Like from all options available today, why even bother with M110A1 based on HK G28? Whoever is in charge of those programs, do they even shoot? Or is it only based on bean counters mentality?
There it is folks, upgrading to crap. Yay!!! No one on the ground wants this rifle.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...just-not-24617
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:03 PM   #2
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It beats me how this is even happening? Like from all options available today, why even bother with M110A1 based on HK G28? Whoever is in charge of those programs, do they even shoot? Or is it only based on bean counters mentality?
There it is folks, upgrading to crap. Yay!!! No one on the ground wants this rifle.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...just-not-24617
I wouldn’t mind having one but I do see your point. Not sure why they just don’t look into a new cartridge.
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:15 PM   #3
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If & when these rifles go into actual combat I would like to see the user after action reports.
That's where the rubber hits the road. If they need a longer reach go with a better cartridge.

If all else fails call in the CAS.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:40 AM   #4
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7.62x51 is getting a bit long in the tooth for a modern sniper rifle. I still use it for my long distance rig, but I am knocking over bowling pins and used fire extinguishers at my range for recreation.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:03 PM   #5
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They have not adopted it yet. I hope they get a better rifle.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:15 PM   #6
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Seems like there is some current lovefest going on in the military for all things H&K? I know H&K makes fine weapons, not saying they don't. Just interesting how there seems to be a push for H&K with the HK416, HK417 and now the HK G28E.

I also agree with the above regarding the 7.62x51 round. Hopefully the military strongly considers something in 6.5mm like a 6.5CM or .260 Remington or 6.5x47 Lapua. Would give them better capabilities over the 7.62x51 unless they go with those new (very expensive) high BC 7.62x51 bullets.
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:01 AM   #7
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I thought that rifle was supposed to be more of a DMR than a "Sniper".

And yeah they are still stuck on 308 which isn't entirely a bad thing but stuff like 6.5 Creedmoor outclasses it.
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:33 AM   #8
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It's (G28) just slightly on the heavy side.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by burninglegs View Post
Seems like there is some current lovefest going on in the military for all things H&K?
HK basically went on their knees at front of DOD and is sucking them big time. When cost of their guns was slightly higher in recent won bids, they deliver much cheaper maintenance package and promised to build factory in GA...big contracts like this have nothing to do with performance - it's all politics and power plays behind the scenes...
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:47 AM   #10
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Politics and power plays are fucking over grunts

The DOD should roll the USMC under the US Army, keeping them separate in terms of basic training and traditions, but United for procurement and ease of cross training and logistics

Why is the USMC scrapping the barrel for parts when they should get the same upgrades immediately as the Army? It’s fucking retarded, it’s one team one fight
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:06 PM   #11
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Why is the USMC scrapping the barrel for parts when they should get the same upgrades immediately as the Army? It’s fucking retarded, it’s one team one fight
The military is a gigantic political machine that employs probably 3-5% of the working age population once you count in contractors and side businesses around military bases. Maybe even 10-20%% if you figure in the towns that spring up around them.

When you have that much money involved every decision is going to be heavily biased in some way.
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Old 02-27-2018, 12:14 PM   #12
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The army started integrating the DMR program around 2010 when Afghanistan was crazy. They also had the knights armament m1110 and the ebr pimped m-14.

My oldest stepson leaves In a few weeks for marine boot camp then infantry. I will be excited to hear how they do things now. I am hoping they aren’t soft like the army got. I doubt many marines are weak though

I think that CSASS is the shit but yeah I’d like to see some nice semi auto 300 win mags and all
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
HK basically went on their knees at front of DOD and is sucking them big time. When cost of their guns was slightly higher in recent won bids, they deliver much cheaper maintenance package and promised to build factory in GA...big contracts like this have nothing to do with performance - it's all politics and power plays behind the scenes...




LOL... This is the truth. It's not just this sniper rifle that this happens to either.
Just about everything the Military purchases is a suck-off contest, sad but true!
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Old 02-27-2018, 01:07 PM   #14
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Politics and power plays are fucking over grunts

The DOD should roll the USMC under the US Army, keeping them separate in terms of basic training and traditions, but United for procurement and ease of cross training and logistics

Why is the USMC scrapping the barrel for parts when they should get the same upgrades immediately as the Army? It’s fucking retarded, it’s one team one fight
You have to remember, the Marines are part of the Navy not the Army. They always have sucked from the hind tit, just the way it's always been.
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Old 02-28-2018, 12:24 AM   #15
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You have to remember, the Marines are part of the Navy not the Army. They always have sucked from the hind tit, just the way it's always been.
Yes but with how hand in hand these two branches often work why the hell not force their procurement programs together? Talk about less logistics!
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:59 AM   #16
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Yes but with how hand in hand these two branches often work why the hell not force their procurement programs together? Talk about less logistics!
That won't ever happen, Marines have a different mission statement. Besides don't you know that the Marines are the Navies Army. LOL
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:12 AM   #17
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I thought that rifle was supposed to be more of a DMR than a "Sniper".

And yeah they are still stuck on 308 which isn't entirely a bad thing but stuff like 6.5 Creedmoor outclasses it.
military.com reported that about 6,000 of the DMR version will be distributed to Army infantry, engineering and scouts. One per squad. Apparently the optic has not been finalized although I am sure they have one in mind lol.

The latest out to Fort Benning

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...les-oct-1.html

"The CSASS is equipped with a Schmidt and Bender 3-20 variable power sniper optic.

[However] The SDMR will likely be equipped with simpler optic capable of quick adjustments between zero and 600 meters, Easlick said.

"What we are looking at would be in the realm of a 1-6, variable-power illuminated reticle," he said. "The concept would be if I am doing anything under 50 meters or even 100 meters, I am on one power and I can execute those tasks that I would normally do with a [close combat optic] very well."

Also, snipers using the CSASS will shoot M118LR sniper ammunition. The SDMR will shoot the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round, which will give the designated marksman accuracy that is "as good or better" than the M4, Easlick said."

Elcan?
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Old 03-24-2018, 02:48 PM   #18
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military.com reported that about 6,000 of the DMR version will be distributed to Army infantry, engineering and scouts. One per squad. Apparently the optic has not been finalized although I am sure they have one in mind lol.

The latest out to Fort Benning

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...les-oct-1.html

"The CSASS is equipped with a Schmidt and Bender 3-20 variable power sniper optic.

[However] The SDMR will likely be equipped with simpler optic capable of quick adjustments between zero and 600 meters, Easlick said.

"What we are looking at would be in the realm of a 1-6, variable-power illuminated reticle," he said. "The concept would be if I am doing anything under 50 meters or even 100 meters, I am on one power and I can execute those tasks that I would normally do with a [close combat optic] very well."

Also, snipers using the CSASS will shoot M118LR sniper ammunition. The SDMR will shoot the M80A1 Enhanced Performance Round, which will give the designated marksman accuracy that is "as good or better" than the M4, Easlick said."

Elcan?
One per squad? Shit, we didn't even have one guy per squad trained up enough to carry the M-14EBR!
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Old 03-24-2018, 07:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by HPP View Post
I thought that rifle was supposed to be more of a DMR than a "Sniper".

And yeah they are still stuck on 308 which isn't entirely a bad thing but stuff like 6.5 Creedmoor outclasses it.
6.5 Creedmoor vastly outclasses 308. 6.5cm ammo also weighs less than 308 and has slightly less recoil. Why HK would even bother chambering a new DMR design in 308 or why the military would even bother testing a new 308 DMR is purely retarded. As far as I'm concerned this new HK design has failed before it even left the ground due it being handicapped by 308 chambering.
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Old 03-24-2018, 11:07 PM   #20
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6.5 Creedmoor vastly outclasses 308. 6.5cm ammo also weighs less than 308 and has slightly less recoil. Why HK would even bother chambering a new DMR design in 308 or why the military would even bother testing a new 308 DMR is purely retarded. As far as I'm concerned this new HK design has failed before it even left the ground due it being handicapped by 308 chambering.
Probably for the same reason the M1 was chambered in 30-06, they already have the ammo and many other systems that use it. Why not an FN MK 20?
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Old 03-24-2018, 11:25 PM   #21
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Probably for the same reason the M1 was chambered in 30-06, they already have the ammo and many other systems that use it. Why not an FN MK 20?
Just becuse they own 308 ammo doesn't mean 308 is still a a relevant caliber for a DMR or any serious long range use.

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Old 03-24-2018, 11:59 PM   #22
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Just becuse they own 308 ammo doesn't mean 308 is still a a relevant caliber for a DMR or any serious long range use.
Sure there may be better choices out there, but the .308 is still perfectly suitable in a DMR role. They're not going to spend money and change logistics if they don't have to.
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Old 03-25-2018, 01:09 AM   #23
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Sure there may be better choices out there, but the .308 is still perfectly suitable in a DMR role. They're not going to spend money and change logistics if they don't have to.
Perfectly suitable is another way of saying good enough I want our military to have the best not what's good enough. 6.5 creedmore vastly out classes 308 the comparison isn't even close. Again 308 is no longer relevant for a DMR or serious purpose long range caliber.
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Old 03-25-2018, 10:53 AM   #24
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The 7.62x51/5.56 rounds will still be in Army inventory for some time to come. We only have so much money to go around. IMHO Money is better spent on new Artillery/Missiles/Rockets.

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/03/...iles-lrpf-cft/

This is what the Russians/Chines will worry about, not a new sniper round.

As far as DMR this is what's coming, whether people want them or not.
I guess the Squad Marksmen will just have to suffer. LOL

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/...les-oct-1.html
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Old 03-25-2018, 04:17 PM   #25
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Again 308 is no longer relevant for a DMR or serious purpose long range caliber.
Yeah, that's what they said a few decades ago when they switched to 5.56.

Funny, you're still saying it.

Funny, we still are using it. Why?

Because the last round that replaced it isn't relevant for a DMR or serious purpose long range caliber.

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Old 03-25-2018, 10:59 PM   #26
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Just about everything the Military purchases is a suck-off contest, sad but true!
And yet we keep writing them blank checks instead of reigning in out-of-control spending.

You know - "for the troops".
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Old 03-26-2018, 04:03 AM   #27
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Yeah, that's what they said a few decades ago when they switched to 5.56.

Funny, you're still saying it.

Funny, we still are using it. Why?

Because the last round that replaced it isn't relevant for a DMR or serious purpose long range caliber.

Yet because 5.56 is lighter and modern 5.56 loads pack more capability per pound than it's competition thus it is still the best choice for an infantry rifle. For a larger caliber on the otherhand there are such major benefits to the 6.5cm especially for a DMR role to the extent that again 308 is no longer a relevant cartridge for long range use. 6.5CM has less wind drift, retains more velocity and energy, has near double the supersonic range, all of which significantly increase hit probability and efect on target, the ammo is also lighter and has slightly less recoil.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:10 AM   #28
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For a larger caliber on the otherhand there are such major benefits to the 6.5cm especially for a DMR role to the extent that again 308 is no longer a relevant cartridge for long range use.
Thing is that a designated marksman rifle is not really intended for long-range use. DMR is a squad support weapon which provides accurate fire on important targets (like NCOs, AT and MG operators etc.) which may or may not be outside of regular assault rifle range. Thanks to optics and long-range'ish ammunition designated marksman can hit these targets faster than regular rifleman. However accuracy on target, and real long-range (past 600 meters) performance is not an important point of the DM role. Also since DMR is bound to infantry squad logistics it makes sense for it to use the same long-range'ish ammunition like other support weapon in squad - the GPMG.

Look at the SVD - it's almost perfect DMR from it's era, and just the weapon which US lacked. This gap was filled by various weapons in US Army and Marines - M14 variants (Marine M14 DMR and M39 EMR, US Army EBR and Crazy Horse M21A5) or SR-25 (Mk11 in Marines and M110 SASS). SASS proved to be most promising design, but wasn't really designed as a typical DMR, mainly because it was made for Army snipers and spotters to be used in situations where their regular weapon (bolt action sniper rifle) would be too slow to provide enough of firepower against many targets. M110 is a heavy and cumbersome rifle, which isn't a problem for a sniper-spotter team, but won't cut it for a grunt moving around a lot, often in cramped insides of armored vehicles.

That's why CSASS was born, and it was find out that not only CSASS will be a great DMR supplement of SASS, but it can also replace it altogether. Initially there was a huge push to refit existing M110 to a so-called M110K configuration, but then Army decided to buy new rifles. HK won and I guess that's the reason for most of Internet CSASS hate. If KAC would win (IIRC their offering was way overpriced) everyone would be screaming 'Murica at top of their lungs.

As for the current 6.5 Creedmoor fad - well, it's a great cartridge for all these precision rifle series race sports. It brings the 6.5x55 level of accuracy to the AR-10 format of rifle. But is it really a necessity in the military? Around the world 7.62x51 is still the king for both DMR and SASS role (meaning proper semi-automatic sniper) because it's still a great middle-of-the-road cartridge with already existing supply, while bolt-actions are getting upgraded to .338 Lapua Magnum mostly, which is a more powerful cartridge than 6.5 CM. It's a bit different in US Army which replaces 7.62x51 M24 with a .300 WM M2010.

And completely different in USMC which not only stays with 7.62x51 M40, but in a semi-auto format they will probably downscale to 5.56 M27 IAR-as-a-DMR variant (well, they've already introduced M38). Which isn't really a bad idea - with a good scope and free-floating barrel any AR-15 can be a damn good DMR within the 600 meters range - remember we're talking about minute of human accuracy level, not that benchrest thousands of an inch precision. Of course everyone is hating on the USMC and M27/M38 because, again, HK, but remember that Marines tried for years to bring the M16 to M16A5/ACMR standard, but failed due to bureaucracy. It seems that it easier for them to buy a completely new weapon system, instead of upgrade the existing.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:11 PM   #29
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Thing is that a designated marksman rifle is not really intended for long-range use. DMR is a squad support weapon which provides accurate fire on important targets (like NCOs, AT and MG operators etc.) which may or may not be outside of regular assault rifle range. Thanks to optics and long-range'ish ammunition designated marksman can hit these targets faster than regular rifleman. However accuracy on target, and real long-range (past 600 meters) performance is not an important point of the DM role. Also since DMR is bound to infantry squad logistics it makes sense for it to use the same long-range'ish ammunition like other support weapon in squad - the GPMG.

Look at the SVD - it's almost perfect DMR from it's era, and just the weapon which US lacked. This gap was filled by various weapons in US Army and Marines - M14 variants (Marine M14 DMR and M39 EMR, US Army EBR and Crazy Horse M21A5) or SR-25 (Mk11 in Marines and M110 SASS). SASS proved to be most promising design, but wasn't really designed as a typical DMR, mainly because it was made for Army snipers and spotters to be used in situations where their regular weapon (bolt action sniper rifle) would be too slow to provide enough of firepower against many targets. M110 is a heavy and cumbersome rifle, which isn't a problem for a sniper-spotter team, but won't cut it for a grunt moving around a lot, often in cramped insides of armored vehicles.

That's why CSASS was born, and it was find out that not only CSASS will be a great DMR supplement of SASS, but it can also replace it altogether. Initially there was a huge push to refit existing M110 to a so-called M110K configuration, but then Army decided to buy new rifles. HK won and I guess that's the reason for most of Internet CSASS hate. If KAC would win (IIRC their offering was way overpriced) everyone would be screaming 'Murica at top of their lungs.

As for the current 6.5 Creedmoor fad - well, it's a great cartridge for all these precision rifle series race sports. It brings the 6.5x55 level of accuracy to the AR-10 format of rifle. But is it really a necessity in the military? Around the world 7.62x51 is still the king for both DMR and SASS role (meaning proper semi-automatic sniper) because it's still a great middle-of-the-road cartridge with already existing supply, while bolt-actions are getting upgraded to .338 Lapua Magnum mostly, which is a more powerful cartridge than 6.5 CM. It's a bit different in US Army which replaces 7.62x51 M24 with a .300 WM M2010.

And completely different in USMC which not only stays with 7.62x51 M40, but in a semi-auto format they will probably downscale to 5.56 M27 IAR-as-a-DMR variant (well, they've already introduced M38). Which isn't really a bad idea - with a good scope and free-floating barrel any AR-15 can be a damn good DMR within the 600 meters range - remember we're talking about minute of human accuracy level, not that benchrest thousands of an inch precision. Of course everyone is hating on the USMC and M27/M38 because, again, HK, but remember that Marines tried for years to bring the M16 to M16A5/ACMR standard, but failed due to bureaucracy. It seems that it easier for them to buy a completely new weapon system, instead of upgrade the existing.
600m = 650 yards (656 to be exact)

@ 650 yards (approx 600m) 6.5 Creedmoor has;


-20% more retained energy
-20% more velocity
-36% less wind drift
-15% less drop

It also has 50% more energy @ 950 yards and 42% more supersonic range.

All of which significantly increase terminal effectiveness and hit probability. Even at 650 there are still major benefits of the 6.5cm over 308 beyond 650 comparing the two is no contest. Consistent minute of man accuracy out to 650 yards while within the range of 308 is not a give me. The 6.5 is going to be far more forgiving in high winds, on moving targets, situations where you can't get an exact range or there's no time, or in case of any shooter error. 6.5 Creedmoor also increases the effective range of a designated marksman significantly because it is so much more forgiving and capable than 308 and would allow a DM to effectively engage threats futher out without a higher level of training. Again 308 is no longer a relevant cartridge in a DMR or any serious purpose long range role.


M118LR 18" Barrel



6.5 Creedmoor 18" Barrel

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Old 03-27-2018, 05:54 AM   #30
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308 is no longer a relevant cartridge in a DMR or any serious purpose long range role.
You know how I know that you haven't read any word I wrote? Read my lips: N-O-O-N-E-C-A-R-E-S.

Point 1: designated marksman doesn't engage long range targets - that's the role for artillery, air assets and (finally) snipers. Weapons used in DM role are hardly task-specific, precision designs. Bundeswehr for example uses G3A3ZF-DMR which is refurbished run-of-the-mill G3 with few Picatinny rails slapped on, and a scope. Russians still use SVD with it's thin, non-free-floating barrel, 1940s style of scope and complete lack of precision ammo around (well, they have such ammo designed, but hardly ever field it). Still, these are enough for the task. US Army wasn't really aware of that, and that's why they introduced the boat-anchor of super-precise match rifle which was SR-25 M110 SASS.

Point 2: 7.62x51mm NATO is used as a DMR cartridge since the early days of designated marksman concept (that would be around 1960s), and is still a cartridge good enough for the task with an advantage of existing military supply chain] that includes not only DM weapons, but also sniper rifles and machineguns. Introducing a new cartridge, only for DM role creates another expensive ammunition supply chain, just to support one weapon type. More than that - any disturbance in logistics may put your marksmen in danger, since they wouldn't be able to get their own special ammo.

Point 3: introducing any new specialized metallic cartridge is at this point an excercise in futility, and that's because US armed forces have an advanced research program on new, non-conventional cartridges, which may result in adoption sooner than we think. What's even more interesting is that new cartridge already uses a 6.5 caliber projectile, but it's overall performance is much more similiar to intermediate 6.5x39mm Grendel, not full-power 6.5 CM.

From all the new fad cartridges Grendel seems to gain most attention with recent adoption of new general issue rifle chambered for that round in Serbia. Grendel hits the sweet spot between weight, recoil, practical range and accuracy which allows it to be used in assault rifles, machine guns and DM rifles (or even sniper rifles with proper projectile selection) - dream of truly universal cartridge (which Soviets wanted to achieve with 7.62x39mm) comes true. At least on paper. However 6.5CM (with it's 6.5x55 performance in AR-10 format) is on one end not enough for military long range (this is the reign of magnum cartridges like .338 LM), and on the other too much for general issue. So once again - introducing it for just the DM role makes no economic and logistic sense.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:46 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris22lr View Post
You know how I know that you haven't read any word I wrote? Read my lips: N-O-O-N-E-C-A-R-E-S.

Point 1: designated marksman doesn't engage long range targets - that's the role for artillery, air assets and (finally) snipers. Weapons used in DM role are hardly task-specific, precision designs. Bundeswehr for example uses G3A3ZF-DMR which is refurbished run-of-the-mill G3 with few Picatinny rails slapped on, and a scope. Russians still use SVD with it's thin, non-free-floating barrel, 1940s style of scope and complete lack of precision ammo around (well, they have such ammo designed, but hardly ever field it). Still, these are enough for the task. US Army wasn't really aware of that, and that's why they introduced the boat-anchor of super-precise match rifle which was SR-25 M110 SASS.

Point 2: 7.62x51mm NATO is used as a DMR cartridge since the early days of designated marksman concept (that would be around 1960s), and is still a cartridge good enough for the task with an advantage of existing military supply chain] that includes not only DM weapons, but also sniper rifles and machineguns. Introducing a new cartridge, only for DM role creates another expensive ammunition supply chain, just to support one weapon type. More than that - any disturbance in logistics may put your marksmen in danger, since they wouldn't be able to get their own special ammo.

Point 3: introducing any new specialized metallic cartridge is at this point an excercise in futility, and that's because US armed forces have an advanced research program on new, non-conventional cartridges, which may result in adoption sooner than we think. What's even more interesting is that new cartridge already uses a 6.5 caliber projectile, but it's overall performance is much more similiar to intermediate 6.5x39mm Grendel, not full-power 6.5 CM.

From all the new fad cartridges Grendel seems to gain most attention with recent adoption of new general issue rifle chambered for that round in Serbia. Grendel hits the sweet spot between weight, recoil, practical range and accuracy which allows it to be used in assault rifles, machine guns and DM rifles (or even sniper rifles with proper projectile selection) - dream of truly universal cartridge (which Soviets wanted to achieve with 7.62x39mm) comes true. At least on paper. However 6.5CM (with it's 6.5x55 performance in AR-10 format) is on one end not enough for military long range (this is the reign of magnum cartridges like .338 LM), and on the other too much for general issue. So once again - introducing it for just the DM role makes no economic and logistic sense.
And yet you're in a thread created by a military sniper that I've talked to enough to know that he want's 6.5 Creedmoor available to him and chose it over 308 when he rebarreled his personal AR10. It's a better and more effective round for the DMR role and it's more forgiving and easier to hit with than 308. I want our military to have the best and it isn't 308.


Last edited by nofreetime; 03-27-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:57 PM   #32
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Guys, 6.5 creedmoor is the future for "long range" and 300 norma will be coming for extended long range. Writing was on the wall. Enough said.
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