Tiger Carbine:Gun Broker

[WolfmanReid]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Some argue that china didn't make the ones in 54r, they got it from Soviets.

Irrelevant what 'my' experience is, I am just stating the known facts

That is completely incorrect, and a misconception based on the fact that some of the imported Chinese guns were scrubbed of their arsenal and date marks. Anyone who has put a Chinese Type 79, Type 85, or Iranian Nakhjir (made on Chinese Type 79 tooling) next to a Russian SVD of any manufacturing era can point out numerous tooling, shape and part differences between the Russian and Chinese guns.

[Floivanus]

Originally Posted by WolfmanReid

That is completely incorrect, and a misconception based on the fact that some of the imported Chinese guns were scrubbed of their arsenal and date marks. Anyone who has put a Chinese Type 79, Type 85, or Iranian Nakhjir (made on Chinese Type 79 tooling) next to a Russian SVD of any manufacturing era can point out numerous tooling, shape and part differences between the Russian and Chinese guns.

Best example of this is the forgotten weapons SVD video put out pretty recently, Ian has an NDM, soviet military SVD and a Tiger all together and points out the differences in machining, that's more evidence than 'the russians made them' the proof isn't there that the chinese copies are actually soviet guns

[ncreptile]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Military arms channel on youtube did a SVD vs. PSL accuracy test, same ammo. PSL did (1 5/8) and SVD did (1 3/8).

1. So one person youtube video is your evidence.
2. We get it.. You keep bringing up the accuracy. I guess the 91/30 is a better sniper than either because it typically provides better accuracy.

[Black Blade]

Been seeing various SVD and NDM86 rifles going for under $5k lately. I guess the buying frenzy has cooled off lately.

Still, I would get a VEPR conversion unless prices for the Drags fall a lot more. Would be great rifles for my collection but can't justify the expenditure now.

[Reckless]

I'm just wondering how SVD's haven't ended up being sold as parts kits here in the US.

[Floivanus]

Originally Posted by Reckless

I'm just wondering how SVD's haven't ended up being sold as parts kits here in the US.

A few have shown up in the past, there's a thread about 80% receivers where someone posts a picture of 3-5 parts kits they have

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=20

[WolfmanReid]

Originally Posted by Reckless

I'm just wondering how SVD's haven't ended up being sold as parts kits here in the US.

Because they don’t make all that many of them (at least compared to AKs), they aren’t cheap where they are available (usually in the thousands of dollars in europe, $1200-1500 on the lower end), and because the receivers are fairly complicated to manufacture. The steel used in the receivers is a type of structural steel not readily available outside of China and Russia (If anyone is interested I had a lab analysis done of a section of an SVD receiver.)

Just speaking from experience in Iraq and Afghanistan an SVD can run anywhere from $5,000-10,000 depending on demand. The average afghan makes about $1800 a year... it’s a sellers market in the war zones.

The parts kits in the linked thread are from cut up Russian or western-European deactivated weapons. Those don’t have a usable bolt or bolt carrier, and generally have the piston cut up and pins welded in the trigger mechanism so you wind up paying over a thousand dollars for some furniture, barrel components, and a top cover...

[Floivanus]

Originally Posted by WolfmanReid

Because they don’t make all that many of them (at least compared to AKs), they aren’t cheap where they are available (usually in the thousands of dollars in europe, $1200-1500 on the lower end), and because the receivers are fairly complicated to manufacture. The steel used in the receivers is a type of structural steel not readily available outside of China and Russia (If anyone is interested I had a lab analysis done of an section of and SVD receiver.)

Just speaking from experience in Iraq and Afghanistan an SVD can run anywhere from $5,000-10,000 depending on demand. The average afghan makes about $1800 a year... it’s a sellers market in the war zones.

The parts kits in the linked thread are from cut up Russian or western-European deactivated weapons. Those don’t have a usable bolt or bolt carrier, and generally have the piston cut up and pins welded in the trigger mechanism so you wind up paying over a thousand dollars for some furniture, barrel components, and a top cover...

Only two honest options out there (besides buying original off gunjoker)

Somehow either have the norinco/izzy sanctions dropped and import them yourself (highly unlikely, just call it no) have someone whip up a batch of US/pakistan/ whoever else would/could clones. (Again highly unlikely)
best bet; buy one if you want it, while 'they're cheap' or moan about a much more expensive gun in the future

[EyesOnlyX5]

+1 Fullassault...

Haken, wow... If I had a dang dollar for every random yahoo online with the utter CLASSIC... Fullassault nailed it... the problem is everyone gets their info from some other yahoo and youtube. I have owned a NDM86 SVD (308) since 2005 now.. the two men they taught me to shoot out of of state both were in hindsight 20/20 above average Dragunov shooters..

obviously this the 308 version but even seeing them with 54r version WOW. I can shoot .50 moa easily with my Georgia arms canned heat or HSM ammo.. I can outshoot m14 and m1s its easily the most accurate semi auto around.

Hell wolfmanried and TowerPower shoot their 54r ones and have done amazing.. one of the dudes gets 1/2 moa with if memory serves me correctly a short barreld tiger model... and those boys compete to 1k yards in Quantico... beating almost everyone there btw Anyone that has any field experience with a SVD knows the balance and side mounted scope has its own "learning curve" once you get it, its amazing how accurate they are when you find its favorite load.

In idaho i shot mine against others at 1100 yrds (1000 meters) aside from wind, if you watched the wind it was hardly difficult banging steel man cut outs. This is my whole world being around good SVD shooters and I come online and have all these "know it-alls" tell me how inaccurate my gun is when I have defeated these types of people personally at events and ranges with their "precision" rigs.. drives me nuts. This is also why I have so few posts on all the SVD/ sniper forums even though Ive been a regular visitor for nearly 20 years on some boards...

you folks drive me nuts. Indian Jones said it best... if you want to be a good Archaeologist some times you have to get out of the Library!! Ditto with shooting and actual field experience with a SVD. To hell with Joe schmoes SVD youtube.

Fullassault.. THANK YOU! You are my dang hero bro.

[voron]

what a fucking retarded thread. comparing svds to psls. i seriously doubt that anyone here arguing over the accuracies of the 2 rifles have never even sat down and reloaded for them, to distinguish their accuracy potential, nevermind factory match ammo.

and whoever said that the SVDs accuracy limitation according to Soviet specs was 3 MOA does not understand how Soviets set their accuracy bars.

[voron]

Originally Posted by ncreptile

1. So one person youtube video is your evidence.
2. We get it.. You keep bringing up the accuracy. I guess the 91/30 is a better sniper than either because it typically provides better accuracy.

yea right!

i hear this shit all the time. Well this youtube celeb did a video on it, hence it must be true!!!!

[RUSSIAN AK FAN]

Originally Posted by Black Blade

Still, I would get a VEPR conversion unless prices for the Drags fall a lot more. Would be great rifles for my collection but can't justify the expenditure now.

This!!^^^

Comparing PSL to SVD is apples to oranges. PSL and VEPR would be closer, and VEPR blows PSL away, IMO.

[Gustav109]

Took a full cup of coffee to read thru to this point. Starting my second cup now, so here goes. I have a Tiger carbine I bought a little over 20 years ago. I used to shoot it fairly regularly for a number of years and fired it a few times in the sniper matches and did very well with it. Ergo; about 10 years later I got a PSL and started fooling with it; I really like this rifle. The muzzle brake actually works and the accuracy is there if you take the time to learn how to shoot it.
Both rifles like certain ammos better than others. Don't ask me why, I'm not a ballistician. The rifle I enjoy shooting the most is the PSL; it strips down much easier for cleaning that the Tiger. I clean my guns when I finish shooting and put them away "ready to go" if I ever have to use them. Something unique about the PSL is its history. When Romania chose not to follow the program for the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Russia decided to curtail the knowledge of weapons development. The Romanians took this in stride and developed there own sniper rifle; PSL......................

[voron]

Originally Posted by Gustav109

Took a full cup of coffee to read thru to this point. Starting my second cup now, so here goes. I have a Tiger carbine I bought a little over 20 years ago. I used to shoot it fairly regularly for a number of years and fired it a few times in the sniper matches and did very well with it. Ergo; about 10 years later I got a PSL and started fooling with it; I really like this rifle. The muzzle brake actually works and the accuracy is there if you take the time to learn how to shoot it.
Both rifles like certain ammos better than others. Don't ask me why, I'm not a ballistician. The rifle I enjoy shooting the most is the PSL; it strips down much easier for cleaning that the Tiger. I clean my guns when I finish shooting and put them away "ready to go" if I ever have to use them. Something unique about the PSL is its history. When Romania chose not to follow the program for the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Russia decided to curtail the knowledge of weapons development. The Romanians took this in stride and developed there own sniper rifle; PSL......................

thats cool. glad you like them both. I know a few guys that own both platforms, distinct between the two and like them both. A well made PSL can be very effective in hands of a well-trained individuals. One of the downsides to FPK/PSL is that you cannot use heavier grain projectiles.

But the part about the Romanian "stride"

Russia didnt give them the license for the SVDs, they could not figure out the machining of the SVD receiver and the SVD barrel manufacturing, so they just "lengthened" the AK. not too much stride there.

mags are the weakest point in the PLS design. they can be extremely problematic. Back in the day when you can call up Century and buy 5 mags for 42$, people would just buy a few and weed out the shitty mags. now that the prices have blown up its more difficult to do.

[Gustav109]

Thanks so much for your input! I stand corrected. I know about the problems; 2 of the original 6 I bought worked flawlessly. I had to "tune" the other four. I have been playing with my VEPR 54r lately and may spend some time on that this winter, that is one dandy rifle!
I think the VEPR's are the best AKs ever produced..............

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by voron

One of the downsides to FPK/PSL is that you cannot use heavier grain projectiles.
But the part about the Romanian "stride"
Russia didnt give them the license for the SVDs, they could not figure out the machining of the SVD receiver and the SVD barrel manufacturing, so they just "lengthened" the AK. not too much stride there.

Yes you can use heavier grain in PSL, I've used it. Where did you got the information that Russia did not give license to Romania? Quit making stuff up. Romanians were the first to make copies of PKM and AKM and what you wrote that Romanians could not figure out how to machine a simple part out of a block of steel is a funny joke.

[Mark75H]

You won't use heavier bullets in a PSL for very long

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by Mark75H

You won't use heavier bullets in a PSL for very long

This ^^^^ The gun forums used to be full of PSLs with cracked trunnions caused by shooting surplus HB.

[cyberjad]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

This ^^^^ The gun forums used to be full of PSLs with cracked trunnions caused by shooting surplus HB.

The retaining plates cracked on mine, not the trunnion, I believe this is what typically happens. A very weak spot on a well overgased gun.

[cyberjad]

Also, I own vepr's along with a PSL and SVD. The Tiger is simply priced for collectors at this point, clearly in many ways you can get better guns for less money. However, comparing a PSL to an SVD is really apples to oranges. In my mind there is nothing similar about them other than maybe the intended purpose, but few people compare Kia's to Ferraris.

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

This ^^^^ The gun forums used to be full of PSLs with cracked trunnions caused by shooting surplus HB.

True military grade PSL does not crack. Receivers made for export to USA are of lower quality steel.

In my mind there is nothing similar about them other than maybe the intended purpose

We are talking about intended purpose here.

[ncreptile]

Hakentt, maybe one day you'll be able to afford a Dragunov so you can cease making excuses/up BS about the PSL. I know it must be tiring for you.

[Make mine underfolded]

All this talk about Dragunovs... I had to take my converted Tiger out today. Pleasure to shoot with 148gr. Kneeling, fast paced shooting, was getting around 2.5 inch groups at 110yrds, and was all within a 7in diameter shoot n see sticker target at 300yds.

[cyberjad]

Originally Posted by ncreptile

Hakentt, maybe one day you'll be able to afford a Dragunov so you can cease making excuses/up BS about the PSL. I know it must be tiring for you.

Exactly this. I love my PSL. I use it much more than the Tiger. Most of my Vepr's are unfired. But I do not kid myself about what it is. Enjoy it for it's character, flaws and all.

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by Make mine underfolded

All this talk about Dragunovs... I had to take my converted Tiger out today. Pleasure to shoot with 148gr. Kneeling, fast paced shooting, was getting around 2.5 inch groups at 110yrds, and was all within a 7in diameter shoot n see sticker target at 300yds.

Just another solid proof that SVD has about the same accuracy as PSL.

Originally Posted by ncreptile

maybe one day you'll be able to afford a Dragunov so you can cease making excuses/up BS about the PSL. I know it must be tiring for you.

What BS am I making here? Just stating the facts.

Kneeling is another shooting position called in soviet manual as 'proper'

[Make mine underfolded]

To be fair to the Tiger, I was using 148grn Tula ammo... with an ancient 4x pso.

[voron]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Just another solid proof that SVD has about the same accuracy as PSL.

i want what you are smoking.

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by hakentt

True military grade PSL does not crack. Receivers made for export to USA are of lower quality steel.

We are talking about intended purpose here.

How many “true military grade PSLs” do you or have you had access to? What type of tests have you ran on them to make this determination? Or by chance do you have this in print from a verifiable Cugir rep. Or is it just something else you’re seen or heard on a forum that you blindly take is gospel.

[ncreptile]

Like I said.. Maybe one day you can afford one so you can stop being jealous and trying to rip others down for having something you cannot.

[Mark75H]

"Military grade PSL" ... now I have heard everything

[cyberjad]

Originally Posted by Mark75H

"Military grade PSL" ... now I have heard everything

You don't know about them? They are made of hardened 24 karat gold bars ordered by Saddam Hussein himself. I read on a forum that somebody heard from a guy that read on another forum that his uncle's brother was in the sandbox and almost held one but it was lost in a boating accident.

[ncreptile]

Originally Posted by cyberjad

You don't know about them? They are made of hardened 24 karat gold bars ordered by Saddam Hussein himself. I read on a forum that somebody heard from a guy that read on another forum that his uncle's brother was in the sandbox and almost held one but it was lost in a boating accident.

Obvious BS is obvious.
Everyone knows they used nazi gold found in lake Toplitz. The nazi gold was much more hardened/unyielding which is key for using heavy ball ammunition in the PSL giving them "military strength".

[voron]

Originally Posted by Mark75H

"Military grade PSL" ... now I have heard everything

you and me both.


but.


to play the Devil's advocate here, perhaps he is referring to the Century built PSLs? Did Century ever built FPK/PSL type rifles using their own receivers like did with WASRs, where they took a demilled PSL and re-built in on a US-made receiver?

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by voron

you and me both.


but.


to play the Devil's advocate here, perhaps he is referring to the Century built PSLs? Did Century ever built FPK/PSL type rifles using their own receivers like did with WASRs, where they took a demilled PSL and re-built in on a US-made receiver?

Here’s his own words,

Originally Posted by hakentt View Post
True military grade PSL does not crack. Receivers made for export to USA are of lower quality steel.

We are talking about intended purpose here.

[voron]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

Here’s his own words,

oh shit i just got that. HA!


so. let me get this straight.

We are in the Cugir factory, Romania. PSL production is going in full swing. Lathes are turning, hammers are bashing, rifles are being cranked out.

EVERYTHING STOP. This next batch of non-military grade PSLs are going to be made for export to the US. We will not be using the same quality of steel on this line of receivers. We will not heat treat the trunnions. Pachec, go change the setting on the machines so this is done. After this batch is complete, turn machines back to normal, so they are producing true military grade PSLs.