If you are building a SBR Krink using ATF Form 1 do the 922R rules still apply?

Your $200 is all you need. Your gun will be an NFA rules compliant gun. If you have any other NFA gun projects in the works, or anticipated, get the NFA tax stamp now. You will retain the value, and will have legally registered and owned NFA guns. If you have the lower and the stamp, you can proceed at your leisure. Good luck. Have fun. Buy guns. Blast the tits off it.

FYI, my Krink was my first AK project, and I solved every little problem very easily, and wound up with a helluva gun. So build the gun, man. My next SBR will be a 10" AR.

Thanks for the info. Could a Form 1 be used for a Tantal to keep all the parts original. Prob should have posted this in the legal section.

Thanks,
Jim

What would you register it as? IIRC, the bbl is over 16" so it's not an SBR. Can't register an MG after 1986, so AFAIK unless you chop the bbl under 16" no way to register as an NFA.

Guess I was just thinking if that if you had a Form 1 for a SBR it wouldn't be a crime to put a longer barrel on it when it came time build. For example if you had a SBR registered AR-15 Lower and wanted to use a 20" upper for some range work would you be in violation?

This is a very interesting question. Just for the record I have 12 stamps, so I think I can speak to some of the issues...

SBR'ing the rifle would make you exempt from 922(r). The problem I see is that you are required to (in the case of an AR) be able to return the rifle to its original, as registered, condition. This allows you to have multiple (short or otherwise) uppers for your SBR'd AR, as long as you can put one on that meets the description on the Form 1. (And you dont in the process violate Constructive Possession blah, blah, blah...)

You couldnt do that with the AK. Changing barrels just isnt a simple swap.

In the online NFA community no one is aware of a single prosecution for 922(r)...and nobody wants to be the first. But if you where to put the rifle into the registry as an SBR and then you later put a longer barrel on it and just didnt remove it from the registry, then you would be in violation, but not for 922(r), only for changing the configuration and not giving notice. Thats the technical side of it. And technically, I never want to be in any violation of any NFA law, no matter how minor.

Now, I bet that if you built said rifle on a F1, and then put a longer barrel on it and filed the required notice to NFA branch, I dont think (but dont know for sure), but I dont think they would automatically remove it from the registry...you have to ask them to do that...

My big concern in all this is that they would agrue that you did all this just to circumvent the law, which you in fact are doing, and try to get you on those grounds. They have done it to other folks on similiar issues.

All this is to say that it really is not worth it IMHO, just to have a few original parts on a rifle.

Interesting question though.

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Originally Posted by Brazos

In the online NFA community no one is aware of a single prosecution for 922(r)...and nobody wants to be the first.

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Originally Posted by Harpy
If you are building a SBR Krink using ATF Form 1 do the 922R rules still apply?

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So if I have a Slr 107UR, I can't make it an SBR due to not being able to return the barrell to its original size??? I just got one of these and was hoping to do that AFTER I move and get all the correct paperwork turned in. I have an M92 kit that I need to wait on also. So each SBR wil cost $200 to register correct?

I am having a little trouble deciphering the ATF letter but it seems to me that it is saying 922r is in addition to SBR registration not it lieu of. Meaning even if you get the SBR paperwork you still have to comply with the 922r rules and not have more than 10 imported parts. Is that what it is saying? Or is that letter addressing a parts change on an SBR that is already registered which would then have to follow 922r?

anyone......

This is yet another reversal of position by ATF. In the past, ATF stated that 922(r) only applied to non-NFA rifles and shotguns. They specifically said AK SBRs were fine with more than 10 imported parts, several letters out there saying this.

Recently, however, they have reversed themselves and taken the position that 922(r) does apply and that AK based SBRs cannot have more than 10 imported parts in them, per 922(r).

So, all existing (one must assume SBRs made before 922(r) existed are "grandfathered", but who knows?) and new SBRs cannot have more than 10 imported parts from the list, which kinda screws with people who legally registered their SBRs under the old interpretation using all foreign parts.

Dark One, yes you can make your 107UR into an SBR, just file the paperwork, get approved, and then cut your bbl.

Sigh, I am having a Krink built right now with no compliance parts. So, when I get it back I will be illegal? My Form 1 is fairly recent, approved in May. Personally I am not worried about, but it's kind of hard to do the dance when the dance moves keep changing without any notification.

Yep, gotta replace parts to be legal now.

I say bullshit. Prior to this new asshat suddenly changing a nearly two decade stance on SBR's- then you are good to go. If your SBR existed prior to this new interpretation then you would fall under the old interpretation. I haven't seen this voted on by an elected body so these rules do not apply no matter how they interpret them.

Pulled from another website. Basically 922r would apply if the host firearm was an imported item then turned into an SBR. Like an Arsenal 106UR, however if you build stateside, using a domestic receiver then you are not importing, thus 922r would not apply to the host firearm. Imported receiver- 922r applies.



"Originally Posted by Sterling Nixon, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch on Oct 11 2006

Dear Mr DRUGRUNR

This is in response to your letter dated September 28, 2006 to the Bureau Of Alchohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you inqure concerning the legality of assembling short-barreled rifles (SBRs) using only imported parts.

As you are aware, SBRs are firearms controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA). The ATF NFA Branch has previously received applications to make SBRs and shotguns from imported firearms. Since the making of these NFA weapons would render these firearms non-importable under 18 U.S.C. Section 925(d)(3), the ATF Office of Chief Councel Was consulted regarding ATF's position on the application of 18 U.S.C. Section 922(r) to the assembly of NFA Fireams. The response from the Office of Chief Counsel was as follows:

In our view, the making of NFA weapons from lawfully imported rifles and shotguns would not violate section 922(r). The legislative history of section 922(r) indicates that it was intended to preclude the circumvention of the importation restriction on nonsporting rifles and shotguns by importing parts for "nonsporting' firearms and assembling them in the United States using domestically manufactured frames or receivers capable of accepting imported parts. [See the President's Message to Congress Transmitting A Draft of Proposed Legislation Entitled The "Comprehensive Violent Crime Control Act Of 1989," H.R. Doc. No. 101-73, 101st Cong., 1st Sess. 81 (June 15, 1989)]. There is no evidence that this assembly restriction was intended to preclude the making of NFA weapons.

Further, as noted above, section 925(d)(3) prohibits the importation of three types firearms, i.e., nonsporting, NFA weapons, and surplus military weapons. Significantly, section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms and not the making of NFA weapons.
Since section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, the lawfull making of short barrel rifles or shotguns would not be precluded by section 922(r).

Please note that this legal opinion applies very specifically to SBRs and shotguns which are made by shortening the barrel(s) of complete firearms which have been lawfully imported; it does not apply to the assembly of NFA weapons from imported parts.

With regard to the scenario(s) you proposed, if you are interested in manufacturing a short-barreled AK pattern rifle, you must do so only by shortening the original barrel of a lawfully imported rifle. This shortening procedure must not be preformed until you submit an ATF Form 1 ("Application to Make and Register a Firearm").

In Addition, FTB advises you to contact authorities where you reside to determing what, if any, State laws or local ordinances govern production or possession of such weapons.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Richard Vogg?? (can't read it)

for Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

So for example, if one were to build from a Krink, or an AMD 65 kit, it would still be subject to 922(r) even though you also have to register them as an SBR...

Unless it's a pre ban weapon (in which case it wouldn't apply), I can't think of any firearm that was legally imported to make into a SBR/SBS that wasn't already barred from importation as a "non sporting" firearm under section 925 and thus subject to 922(r) when modified, so that emphasis above is pretty much pointless as far as the kind of gun we are interested in goes.

OK, now I'm even more confused.

"There is no evidence that this assembly restriction was intended to preclude the making of NFA weapons."


"Significantly, section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms and not the making of NFA weapons.
Since section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, the lawfull making of short barrel rifles or shotguns would not be precluded by section 922(r)."


Their counsel is saying 922(r) only applies to "non-sporting" firearms and that NFA firearms are a different animal not affected by 922(r) at all. How are they making a distinction based on whether the rifle was imported whole or assembled here from parts?

The whole problem is that they are saying that 922 applies to NFA because NFA items are firearms. Using that logic, then all handguns or shotguns have to have 10 or less restricted parts, which we all know isn't the case. This whole "new" logic is completely flawed because 922 covers imported sporting firearms, not US built NFA items- which are not covered under 922.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ
The whole problem is that they are saying that 922 applies to NFA because NFA items are firearms. Using that logic, then all handguns or shotguns have to have 10 or less restricted parts, which we all know isn't the case. This whole "new" logic is completely flawed because 922 covers imported sporting firearms, not US built NFA items- which are not covered under 922.

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US Made reciever and imported parts SBR

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, D.C. 20226

MAR 22, 1994 LE:F:FE:RLB3312.5

Dear Mr. XXX:

This refers to your letter of February 28, 1994, in which you
inquire as to whether the making of certain National Firearm Act
(NFA) weapons is prohibited by Title 18 United States Code
(U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section 922(r). The weapon in question is a
FN/FAL type firearm having a barrel length of less than 16 inches
which is assembled from an imported British L1A1 parts kit and a
domestically manufactured frame or receiver.

Title 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 922(r) provides that it shall
be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any
semiautomatic rifle or shotgun which is identical to any rifle or
shotgun prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44,
Section 925(d)(3), as not being particularly suitable for or
readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

However, the Bureau has previously determined that the lawful
making of an NFA weapon would not violate Section 922(r), since the
section only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, and
not the making of NFA weapons. Therefore, the lawful making of a
short barreled rifle would not be precluded by Section 922(r).

If you decide to proceed with your project, it will be necessary
for you to obtain prior approval by first submitting an ATF Form 1
(Application To Make and Register a Firearm) and paying the
appropriate $200 making tax. Additional information relative to
this procedure may be obtained from the following source:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
NFA Branch, Room 5300
650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington DC 20026

We trust that the foregoing was responsive to your inquiry. If we
may be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,


Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

100% Imported parts, no US parts whatsoever, SBR.

"Originally Posted by Sterling Nixon, Chief, Firearms Technology Branch on Oct 11 2006

Dear Mr XX

This is in response to your letter dated September 28, 2006 to the Bureau Of Alchohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you inqure concerning the legality of assembling short-barreled rifles (SBRs) using only imported parts.

As you are aware, SBRs are firearms controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA). The ATF NFA Branch has previously received applications to make SBRs and shotguns from imported firearms. Since the making of these NFA weapons would render these firearms non-importable under 18 U.S.C. Section 925(d)(3), the ATF Office of Chief Councel Was consulted regarding ATF's position on the application of 18 U.S.C. Section 922(r) to the assembly of NFA Fireams. The response from the Office of Chief Counsel was as follows:

In our view, the making of NFA weapons from lawfully imported rifles and shotguns would not violate section 922(r). The legislative history of section 922(r) indicates that it was intended to preclude the circumvention of the importation restriction on nonsporting rifles and shotguns by importing parts for "nonsporting' firearms and assembling them in the United States using domestically manufactured frames or receivers capable of accepting imported parts. [See the President's Message to Congress Transmitting A Draft of Proposed Legislation Entitled The "Comprehensive Violent Crime Control Act Of 1989," H.R. Doc. No. 101-73, 101st Cong., 1st Sess. 81 (June 15, 1989)]. There is no evidence that this assembly restriction was intended to preclude the making of NFA weapons.

Further, as noted above, section 925(d)(3) prohibits the importation of three types firearms, i.e., nonsporting, NFA weapons, and surplus military weapons. Significantly, section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms and not the making of NFA weapons. Since section 922(r) only addresses the assembly of "nonsporting" firearms, the lawful making of short barrel rifles or shotguns would not be precluded by section 922(r).

Please note that this legal opinion applies very specifically to SBRs and shotguns which are made by shortening the barrel(s) of complete firearms which have been lawfully imported; it does not apply to the assembly of NFA weapons from imported parts.

With regard to the scenario(s) you proposed, if you are interested in manufacturing a short-barreled AK pattern rifle, you must do so only by shortening the original barrel of a lawfully imported rifle. This shortening procedure must not be preformed until you submit an ATF Form 1 ("Application to Make and Register a Firearm").

In Addition, FTB advises you to contact authorities where you reside to determing what, if any, State laws or local ordinances govern production or possession of such weapons.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,


Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"

Quote:

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Please note that this legal opinion applies very specifically to SBRs and shotguns which are made by shortening the barrel(s) of complete firearms which have been lawfully imported; it does not apply to the assembly of NFA weapons from imported parts.

---

The new official running things says that 922r applies because the NFA item is a "weapon". However 922r has to do with sporting rifles, since an NFA item cannot be a sporting rifle, then it would not apply.

Bump and someone please tack this at the top.

The problem (aside from the obvious 922 silliness) is that there are literally dozens of federal laws and conflicting and contradictory rulings on these laws.

You've got the original NFA laws from the thirties, combined with those from the sixties, with the additional frustration of the 922 regs from the nineties.

Each one, while somewhat based on the others, appears to exist in a vacuum. This is a similar situation to the US tax code, where every year new stuff gets added until its an unworkable spaghetti pile. Combine this situation with new leadership every four or eight years, and its a disaster.

Thus, while one act may say one thing, the one written thirty years later may say (or be interpreted to say) something in complete contradiction, but they are both the law of the land. I don't think that you could send in five letters and get the same answer five times on some things, unless it was a really clear cut issue like registration of new MGs.

I'm not sure this would make a good sticky yet, as there seems to be no clear cut answer...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 7.62FMJ
The new official running things says that 922r applies because the NFA item is a "weapon". However 922r has to do with sporting rifles, since an NFA item cannot be a sporting rifle, then it would not apply.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Underground
I think you have that backwards. It states that 922r applies to any firearms built from imported parts that are from firearms NOT considered suitable for sporting purposes.

Regardless of any individual's unsupported interpretation, I did not see any language in the actual law that would exclude a registered SBR from that part count requirement. The SBR krink I'm working on will be compliant just to be sure anyway.

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