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Old 01-12-2018, 11:48 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by burninglegs View Post
None of this has any bearing on the fact that the British and New Zealanders found a DI more reliable in their testing and ultimately went with a DI over piston alternatives. Again, a properly maintained piston is no more reliable than a properly maintained DI.
Who gives a shit about New Zealand ? What the fuck have they done in wars ?
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:59 AM   #37
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Who gives a shit about New Zealand ? What the fuck have they done in wars ?
Wow, that is the best response you have? New Zealand has fought alongside the USA in wars like WWI, WWII, Korean, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, War on Terror...etc. Ever hear of the ANZUS Treaty? Probably not based on your typical posts.

Size of the country or how big their military is doesn't matter in regards to both the Brits and Kiwis having picked a DI AR over a piston AR. That is a fact.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:01 PM   #38
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Who gives a shit about New Zealand ? What the fuck have they done in wars ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...g_World_War_II
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:52 PM   #39
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Your talking about the same people who switched from their 5.56x45 chambered SA80 to a Colt 5.56 Carbine (M4/m16) for and I quote...

"Reduce risk of ricochet and collateral damage and increased stopping power"

"Its the same 5.56 caliber as the SA80 but has greater punch and is easier to handle"

Now I know somebody over there has a brain and knows why they really did the switch. I've got friends in England who really know their firearm stuff... but boy oh boy did I cry laughing when I read that report... I think the unit in question was the Royal Marines. Those quotes were theirs to the reporters. Heck... the aussies announced all over the news when 3 rounds of FMJ pistol training ammo went missing. They said the ammo was highly dangerous and volatile and such. They said to call emergency services if found or seen so trained professionals could come and collect the ammo.
Because SA-80 sucked bad, and the Brits didnít want to admit they designed probably the shittiest military rifle since WW2 and had to use another excuse.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:53 PM   #40
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With military contracts, alls it boils down to is who paid the most in bribes, combined with what company had the best "dirt" on brass & politicians to gain entry.

Not even a trustworthy process to put faith in anymore. Can't even get a seat at the table for testing without major payoffs.

However, I am a big HK fan, so I'm sure it won on merit once it got to the tables for testing (plus some extra $$$ kicked in)



huh ??

Colt, FN win $212 million Army M4 contract
http://www.guns.com/2015/09/28/colt-...y-m4-contract/
Key word ďjointĒ, Colt used to be the only player in the game and had the lobby influence.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:02 PM   #41
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Who gives a shit about New Zealand ? What the fuck have they done in wars ?
They were called Kiwis because of war. New Zealanders fought along side Brits and US forces in WW1, their uniform had a Kiwi bird badge on them, the Brits and Americans started calling them Kiwis, and the New Zealanders kept referring themselves that after the war as a badge of honor, eventually Kiwi became another name for New Zealanders.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:03 PM   #42
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Sorry, Iíll take the Marines decision and testing vs what a few soldiers from New Zealand like.
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:10 PM   #43
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Sorry, Iíll take the Marines decision and testing vs what a few soldiers from New Zealand like.
Our government spends more on testing and defense than anyone else. And many nations actually just follow what we do. The marines probably have more data from actual field use than any other militant group today. Their decision should be taken into consideration more than others...

And the argument that it's money and who throws the most towards officials that wins... think on this. All of those tests Colt was the loser but keeps getting the deals. If anyone was getting sweetheart deals from officials it was the people at Colt if you want to make that argument.
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:03 PM   #44
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Hey, that's the thread where Nalioth said Marines don't carry M9's!!!
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:27 AM   #45
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The HK is not some wonder gun and has had niggles of its own. A 16," heavy barreled, free floated M4 could have done the same thing, methinks.

If it works it works.

Story from a full auto rental range...HK barrel keyholing at 10k rounds. Cheap J&T replacement AR barrels make it 80-100k on their line.

Nothing is perfect.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefi...tal-range/amp/

That oft quoted report of M4 (un)reliability is flawed, as has been addressed.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:27 AM   #46
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Some interesting insights from a regular dude.



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Old 01-13-2018, 01:06 PM   #47
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The HK is not some wonder gun and has had niggles of its own. A 16," heavy barreled, free floated M4 could have done the same thing, methinks.

If it works it works.

Story from a full auto rental range...HK barrel keyholing at 10k rounds. Cheap J&T replacement AR barrels make it 80-100k on their line.

Nothing is perfect.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.thefi...tal-range/amp/

That oft quoted report of M4 (un)reliability is flawed, as has been addressed.
And we discussed this. It's a tourist attraction in Las Vegas. Those guns are tortured beyond anything they'll normally see. And on top of that. The h&K barrel has many features to it that explain why that happened. 1. It's not chrome lined (military version is but the one they send to the states is not). 2. It may be 4140. I can't remember if it is or not. 3. It had what is called a "tapered bore". That is what it sounds like. The bore is tapered towards the muzzle. Put all that together and the fact that none of those features were put in that barrel for full auto use, and it doesn't surprise me it was shot out like that. And their reports from long service life on other barrels is skewed. Their other barrels are shot out. They only shoot to 10 yards and their accuracy standard is no keyholing. A smoothbore could do that in most cases.

But the fact that their H&K did that was not the fault of the rifle but the fault of them. They didn't pay attention to what they were buying. The commercial barrel h&K uses is NoT meant for full auto use. H&K even says this. They wanted to improve accuracy for commercial customers. As a result, you will see slightly shorter service life and extremely poor performance on full auto.

Last edited by NMGuy; 01-13-2018 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Rick_A View Post
Some interesting insights from a regular dude.



One question I would have in the bottom video is why not include 40 round gen 3 pmags as part of acceptable equipment if they want more rounds but the same reliability as a box magazine vs. a drum or quadstack.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #49
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One question I would have in the bottom video is why not include 40 round gen 3 pmags as part of acceptable equipment if they want more rounds but the same reliability as a box magazine vs. a drum or quadstack.
Because then there would be the added cost of redesigning the web gear.
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Old 01-14-2018, 10:35 PM   #50
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But the fact that their H&K did that was not the fault of the rifle but the fault of them. They didn't pay attention to what they were buying. The commercial barrel h&K uses is NoT meant for full auto use. H&K even says this. They wanted to improve accuracy for commercial customers. As a result, you will see slightly shorter service life and extremely poor performance on full auto.
That's a helluva excuse when a cheap no name barrel vastly outlasts it under hard use.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:28 PM   #51
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That's a helluva excuse when a cheap no name barrel vastly outlasts it under hard use.
A tapered bore is going to do that.

The no name brand was probably a mass produced chrome lined 4150 barrel. It's going to be a straight bore and it's going to handle automatic fire well. That's what the bulk of AR15 barrels are even though they don't see automatic fire.


Ya know, I could go buy a brand new snap-on torque wrench then use it as a hammer. Would that be cool to complain about when it breaks? "Oh, this torque wrench didn't last very long. It's garbage".

H&K has the barrel specs listed for their civilian rifle and it is a well known fact that barrels with those features are not meant for and will not hold up to automatic fire. And the round count they gave is actually pretty shot out for anything. Again. Their accuracy standard is no keyholing at 10 yards. None of those barrels are going to give anything resembling a grouping past 10 yards and may keyhole at 50-100 yards.

It's not hard to see how a tapered bore would develop those problems when used like that. That's why nobody uses them like that. You wouldn't go buy a match grade barrel for $1000 then go dump 1000 rounds through it in automatic fire and expect it to have match grade accuracy. It won't. It'll probably be shooting worse than the value barrel.

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Old 01-15-2018, 02:03 AM   #52
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Ya know, I could go buy a brand new snap-on torque wrench then use it as a hammer. Would that be cool to complain about when it breaks? "Oh, this torque wrench didn't last very long. It's garbage".
That's a terrible analogy.

The HK in question is marketed as a tactical sporting rifle, not a match target rifle...though there is a version marketed as such. The heavy barreled match style guns are expected to survive relatively hard use. Many are used in competition to hose targets down in quick succession. A 3k rifle should be expected to do better, is all.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:05 AM   #53
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All I know is that if any of my rifles had a stoppage rate like that they'd be hammered to scrap and in the trash. That's ridiculous. What did they do, shoot a million rounds? Use bullets made of mud? Not put powder in a percentage of the test rounds? Fill the rifles with gravy?? Simply unbelievable.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:24 AM   #54
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As another poster mentioned some time back, it is believed that incomplete bursts due to the burst cam were counted as stoppages.

These procurement processes/evaluations have had a history of getting silly and/or political in nature at times.

The M27 looks to be a fine weapon and the end users tend to like it. Eventually they'll get old, shitty, and beat up like everything else.
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Old 01-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #55
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That's a terrible analogy.

The HK in question is marketed as a tactical sporting rifle, not a match target rifle...though there is a version marketed as such. The heavy barreled match style guns are expected to survive relatively hard use. Many are used in competition to hose targets down in quick succession. A 3k rifle should be expected to do better, is all.
We could pull up 100% of the info and facts. Then compile them and find the truth. But you don't want the truth. You want to be right.

Good luck with that.

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Old 01-15-2018, 01:16 PM   #56
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Geez, thread cluster fucked.
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:58 PM   #57
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We could pull up 100% of the info and facts. Then compile them and find the truth. But you don't want the truth. You want to be right.

Good luck with that.
...playing devils advocate here....but the same thing could be said of you, referring to the military dust tests.

I think the piston rifle will work fine for the Marines. I think the DI guns are fine rifles too.
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Old 01-15-2018, 03:41 PM   #58
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We could pull up 100% of the info and facts. Then compile them and find the truth. But you don't want the truth. You want to be right.

Good luck with that.
There are the facts.

Then opinion.

The former is obvious.

The latter differs.

So be it.
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:51 PM   #59
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Your talking about the same people who switched from their 5.56x45 chambered SA80 to a Colt 5.56 Carbine (M4/m16) for and I quote...

"Reduce risk of ricochet and collateral damage and increased stopping power"

"Its the same 5.56 caliber as the SA80 but has greater punch and is easier to handle"

Now I know somebody over there has a brain and knows why they really did the switch. I've got friends in England who really know their firearm stuff... but boy oh boy did I cry laughing when I read that report... I think the unit in question was the Royal Marines. Those quotes were theirs to the reporters. Heck... the aussies announced all over the news when 3 rounds of FMJ pistol training ammo went missing. They said the ammo was highly dangerous and volatile and such. They said to call emergency services if found or seen so trained professionals could come and collect the ammo.
I'm not silly enough to attempt defending Brit/Aussie pussification and general retardation, but...

Of the bolded bits:
1. The Brits (until recently) really did use lower pressure (more completely, lower gas port pressure/different curve, and generally lower velocity) 5.56 ammunition, due to the SA80 (all models) breaking sooner and having more reliability issues (even more than usual) when using 5.56 ammo loaded like every other NATO country uses it. So, much as the rest of their claims for the "why" are horse shit, that really isn't...The units using M4 type weapons can safely use more "proper" 5.56 ammo in them from any other supplying nation (vs in the SA80), which truly does have (slightly) "greater punch" over their Radway Green SA80-focused stuff. The "easier to handle" part likely is in reference to the M16/M4 being easier to handle than the SA80s themselves (as opposed to the ammo difference); as SA80s handle like a pile of shit compared to anything else (including thrice-dropped anvils), that comment is unsurprising and correct, as well.

2. Royal Marines, guns, reporters...You ever watch one of the expo day things when the Brit military wanted to show off their newly-adopted Glocks to a group of typically gun-dumb Brit reporters?

This RM NCO is drawing a new G17 from their Serpa ripoff holster, and shooting at a reduced cartoonish silhouette at about 15-20 FEET...Out of 17 rounds, he missed a few completely, and almost all the rest were in a roughly pizza pan size "group" low and left, as I recall. This "expert", of course, impressed all the reporters with how "accurately and deadly" he performed with the new pistol.

I won't bother going too deeply into the piston vs other piston (called "DI" by most, even if it really isn't) AR thing...I've never felt under-armed carrying either type into combat, though I appreciate the greater ease of cleaning on quality piston types (esp. LWRC). I never babied a "DI" M16/M4, and they worked fine for me (including in long gun fights, with no time to clean, in sandy/dusty places). I prefer the LWRC piston overall to "DI" type, but it's not because I think either has a reliability advantage over the other in most practical situations.
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:12 PM   #60
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I figured there was a realistic reason they did the switch. Figuring it was some pitfall of the SA80 rifle or to meet certain criteria.

There are some really smart guys over there in the EU who know their firearms. But in the more civilized world over there, people who are involved with firearms and hunting are persecuted and even threatened so they tend to try and keep it to themselves. Lots of knowledge on sounds suppressors. They are almost commonplace on every rifle at the rifle range over there now days from what I'm told. I've been told that their government wants their shooters and hunters to have suppressors on their personal firearms.

Shotgun shooting is still a big sport over there. But they still don't advertise it like we do.
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Old 01-18-2018, 03:00 AM   #61
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I figured there was a realistic reason they did the switch. Figuring it was some pitfall of the SA80 rifle or to meet certain criteria.
The SA80A2/L85 has had a lengthy development and convoluted procurement process that makes the M16/M4 look like child's play. Even H&K couldn't fully un-F it, which is astonishing for a rifle based on a proven design (AR-18).

Still, reports of small arms from media sources gets pretty sensationalistic and political. Reliable insider info is often few and far between.
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