Up to 60% Off Daily Deal Products. Palmetto State Armory
The Ultimate Gun Belt, US Made, Lifetime Warranty, Free Shipping. Shop Now.
Gorilla Ammo Free Shipping when you order 10 Boxes or more.
Shop all the current Lone Wolf closeouts here

Go Back   The AK Files Forums > Rifle Forums > Galils, Valmets and the R series

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2008, 01:19 AM   #1
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default ORF Galil receiver "concerns" or ideas about the problem and suggestions to remedy it

Ok, ORF receiver (first series), needed a "little tweaking" . AK bullet guide that was fitted at that time, had a rivet way to high, ejector to long and a little rough machining,--but workable.

Biggest problem, was setting up the Headspace, as Lugs in the Receiver didn't match up with the bolt. Again, that issue was overcome by working/machining the rear bolt surfaces. Conducted a search for spare bolts and had a precision Machine shop match the bolt to the receiver.
Headspace was set . Functioned flawlessly. The only issue was/is, the Right Shoulder in the receiver bulging back,--which does increase headspace.
Both left and right bolt lugs engage in the receiver, but only the right deforms on a relatively small number of rounds. The Bulging neutralises the "Perfect fit".

I've been given, "It's settling/shooting in",---But frankly, hearing that makes me a little nervous. I guess others have a similar situation with the right shoulder and others not.

With all the previous talk of Heat Treatment, I had the receiver tested,---Where we could reach, was not on the shoulder unfortunately. It came out at 39--41 Rockwell C on the flats,--external surface. So, if it's hard enough, why is the right shoulder bulging, deforming. There has to be a reason --and a solution.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 07:09 PM   #2
PILMAN
Member
 
AKaholic #: 8352
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PULLTHRU
Ok, ORF receiver (first series), needed a "little tweaking" . AK bullet guide that was fitted at that time, had a rivet way to high, ejector to long and a little rough machining,--but workable.

Biggest problem, was setting up the Headspace, as Lugs in the Receiver didn't match up with the bolt. Again, that issue was overcome by working/machining the rear bolt surfaces. Conducted a search for spare bolts and had a precision Machine shop match the bolt to the receiver.
Headspace was set . Functioned flawlessly. The only issue was/is, the Right Shoulder in the receiver bulging back,--which does increase headspace.
Both left and right bolt lugs engage in the receiver, but only the right deforms on a relatively small number of rounds. The Bulging neutralises the "Perfect fit".

I've been given, "It's settling/shooting in",---But frankly, hearing that makes me a little nervous. I guess others have a similar situation with the right shoulder and others not.

With all the previous talk of Heat Treatment, I had the receiver tested,---Where we could reach, was not on the shoulder unfortunately. It came out at 39--41 Rockwell C on the flats,--external surface. So, if it's hard enough, why is the right shoulder bulging, deforming. There has to be a reason --and a solution.

What do you mean by the right shoulder?
PILMAN is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 08:33 PM   #3
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default RIGHT SHOULDER

Not finished building at time of photo.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture 0932.jpg (24.8 KB, 1025 views)
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 10:49 PM   #4
6500rpm
Senior Member
 
6500rpm's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3450
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St Louis
Posts: 919
Default

PULLTHRU,
I have the same condition going on in my build, I've since purchased a new bolt and worked the lugs to verify contact on both sides.
Another concern that I'm not sure comes into play is that the bolt carrier only contacts (stops against) the receiver on the right side, and has a .076" (2mm) gap on the left. I did have to correct the radius issue on the right side, but 2mm would have been a lot of material to remove to make the carrier contact the receiver on both sides. All of my AK's have "even" left to right contact between the carrier and front trunion.
Is it common to have this gap on all Galil varriations (I.M.I., AA, Magnum Research, ORF builds, Century builds)?

***Note-without contaminating the build thread, this is one of the issues I would like to have addressed, if it's an issue at all, as in, should I have built up this area on the carrier, or removed the 2mm of material
from the right side of the receiver to make sure I have "even" left to right contact here first, before setting headspace?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Bolt Carrier 002.jpg (64.4 KB, 538 views)

Last edited by 6500rpm; 02-25-2008 at 10:55 PM.
6500rpm is online now  
Old 02-25-2008, 11:43 PM   #5
dstorm1911
Curio & Relic
 
dstorm1911's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 4307
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mostly Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,758
Default

I am going to move some posts recently posted to the ORF Galil thread over here as they really are borderline regarding the thread topic but still are related to a valid concern of owners of these receivers, this will provide a fresh thread just dealing with this issue alone, any name calling or general pissing contest crap will not be tolerated so lets stick with the facts and valid suggestions etc... same for any questions

DStorm
__________________
---------------Sometimes a cannon ball across the bow will get their attention better than a tap on the shoulder-------------
dstorm1911 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:09 AM   #6
Rapid Fire
Banned
 
Rapid Fire's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 648
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

Mods,
Great, another thread!

USGI,
Here is what I do not get, sorry to call you out, but there is alot of "self proclamed experts" GP is one. WE DO NOT CAST, USE A FORGING, its 100% billet 4140 on our pieces, always have been just that. As you guys ask me. Show me pics of these casting marks!! Again USGI sorry, I am not picking on you, but there billet.

Todd@ORF
Rapid Fire is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:13 AM   #7
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

6500rpm.

Not sure, but I have a gap on the left also. I've read the Galil is that way and cannot remember if the Factory ones, I used long ago, had the Gap.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GAP BC.jpg (93.2 KB, 467 views)

Last edited by PULLTHRU; 02-26-2008 at 12:34 AM.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:16 AM   #8
dstorm1911
Curio & Relic
 
dstorm1911's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 4307
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mostly Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,758
Default

Rapid fire, GP has not offered any comments here, do not start on that road, your comment above is exactly what will invite the exact same bickering BS ya already had going in the other thread, this was an attempt to let ya address a very valid concern without all the bickering and so on ya can either use that oppertunity or ya can continue your personal attacks regarding another vendor GP etc.... the latter will not benifit anyone especially not the party initiating such so if ya'd care to edit your reply above....

I think USGIs questions regarding casting is his attempt to try to be on yourside regarding the deformed right locking recess issue as somehing other than a heat treating issue....... this is an oppertunity for you to actually work WITH your customers to resolve a problem, starting out with a deffensive attack is really not the best way to go.....
__________________
---------------Sometimes a cannon ball across the bow will get their attention better than a tap on the shoulder-------------
dstorm1911 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:23 AM   #9
Rapid Fire
Banned
 
Rapid Fire's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 648
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

Pullthru,
That picture you just posted has not one thing to do about headspace nor function. GP may say it does, but pull out your Aks and tell me which ones (country of origin) contact that surface 100% in the rear. I think you guys are confusing this "lug contact issue". I have found that out and posted as such seeing the hack job GP did for H and As guns. They were screwed together and thats it, plain and simple. Did GP make sure the bolt contacted the locking lugs (those would be the ones the bolt head touchs on the inside of the receiver) no he did not, missed the left side by .007 and now the guns need rebuilt, and this man does not stand behind what he screws together. Plain and simple, get a builder that knows the guns 100%, stands behind his work, or buy a Century.

Todd@ORF
Rapid Fire is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:26 AM   #10
Rapid Fire
Banned
 
Rapid Fire's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 648
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

Dstorm,
How about follow what all GP has said about my receivers and why they deform. I have answered each and everyone of them time and time again in these threads. Now I call out GP for what hes pulled with two of his customers on my product with invaild points he has and I am wrong? Why? I'll edit and copy what I have already posted on how and how not todo it on lug contact. And again its not the same lug that Pullthru has posted for confusion to the public.

Copied from the other thread

Fixed your post Mark!!! Just for your knowledge on H and As guns, so far I have found the following. Whatever you used to ream the chamber, dremel, hand drill, cause it was not a lathe, if it was it was not on center off by about .005, the body of the chamber is now "fat on one side". Rec, yeap one right lug mushroomed. Why? GP never checked in these builds for contact of both lugs. Right side had contact, left did not of approx .007. Got those dimensions from checking lugs to rec face, then bolt helix and how much the one side has fallen back. Its not a soft issue, its a build issue. 1 lug is not gonna take that much pressure. So after firing I think they said 2-300 rounds the lugs match the bolt helix. Now with firing, bolt does contact fully, headspace is no longer there, just moved .007. Case seperations due to that and also the oblong chamber ream job. So whats it take to fix these? New barrels (easiest fix which I offered to supply GP at my costs and his customers expense then he'd do the labor in which he declined and now I am), or you could cut the shoulders of the barrel and rotate everything around thats on the barrel. All would not of happened if a responsible builder would have built it.

Thats how not to do it.

Todd@ORF

Last edited by Rapid Fire; 02-26-2008 at 12:33 AM.
Rapid Fire is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:38 AM   #11
Rapid Fire
Banned
 
Rapid Fire's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 648
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

DStorm,
One last, as you see in all our ads for any machined receiver its 100% billet, USGI can read that too right off our site. If he does not own one, has looked at our site, then the mention of castings would have never came up. Correct? So if were sticking to owners of the guns, assemblers, gunsmiths, lets stay on that track and lets keep this crap out too, no opinions, thought that was the point. Again, sorry USGI, no ill will.

Todd@ORF
Rapid Fire is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:39 AM   #12
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid Fire
Pullthru,
That picture you just posted has not one thing to do about headspace nor function. GP may say it does, but pull out your Aks and tell me which ones (country of origin) contact that surface 100% in the rear. I think you guys are confusing this "lug contact issue". I have found that out and posted as such seeing the hack job GP did for H and As guns. They were screwed together and thats it, plain and simple. Did GP make sure the bolt contacted the locking lugs (those would be the ones the bolt head touchs on the inside of the receiver) no he did not, missed the left side by .007 and now the guns need rebuilt, and this man does not stand behind what he screws together. Plain and simple, get a builder that knows the guns 100%, stands behind his work, or buy a Century.

Todd@ORF
Todd,
You've completely lost me now. The picture I "just" posted in response to 6500rpm was merely illustrating the bolt carrier gap. Headspace or function was not being discussed.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:44 AM   #13
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

"And again its not the same lug that Pullthru has posted for confusion to the public".

Mr Grove : Please explain this comment
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:51 AM   #14
dstorm1911
Curio & Relic
 
dstorm1911's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 4307
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mostly Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,758
Default

Todd.......... how bout we copy/paste your request for a thread without GP starting crap so ya could actually respond etc.... thats in that other thread too, however when your given that oppertunity...... ya can't stop tryin to start a fight even when that member doesn't even know the thread even exists yet!!! My gawd man....... ya have TWO customers with a couple issues looking for info and as far as I can tell GP has had nothing to do with either of their receivers at all........

Partner...... Your convincing me of one thing from your posts on AK Files..... but I'll not post it publically so much for the claims that all ya needed was a GP free thread to clear it all up etc..... ya had it and............ apperantly ya just aren't capable of doing it, or are ya?

I'd just like to see all these people get some sort of solution to their problem.......that should be your goal as well being the manufacturer of the product
__________________
---------------Sometimes a cannon ball across the bow will get their attention better than a tap on the shoulder-------------
dstorm1911 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:40 AM   #15
mustang67
Member
 
AKaholic #: 8811
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 74
Default

Guys,

I think Todd has made a valid point about bolt contact. It make perfect sense to me. I don't care how hard you make the receiver,if the load is not transferred to the receiver right it will deform it. The one thing I would ask for us home builders what is the best way to make sure your getting good lug cotact. I have used a marker on the lugs and then put the head space gage in and worked bolt and carrier in and out then check for wear. I dont think the Galil is as easy to build as a demiled parts kit. When you take a well made ORF receiver and a well used parts kit from another country thing are not going to fall together.Yes there are some challenges with the build but thats half the fun. I think the the Galil on a 1 to 10 its about a 6 for building. I think the receivers that ORF makes are top shelf. That is why I have three now and one on order. Mods I hope I'm not out of line here. I don't know Todd personally but I'm a very happy ORF customer. I don't think that Todd would put out a receiver that would kill or maim anyone thats just crazy. If you don't build something right it will fail plan and simple. The last thing that I would add is if your are unhappy with something from ORF just call them and talk to the ladies very nicely you might be suprised what will happen.

Mustang 67
mustang67 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 08:58 AM   #16
BigAl
Veteran Member
 
AKaholic #: 3957
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,689
Default

I too noticed the bolt carrier "gap" on the left side. I enlarged the radius on my carrier, it didn't make any difference, the bolt is already locked in at this point.
BigAl is online now  
Old 02-26-2008, 10:52 AM   #17
dstorm1911
Curio & Relic
 
dstorm1911's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 4307
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mostly Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,758
Default

the area depicted in Pullthru's pic is of the bolts right locking shoulder/recess which has mushroomed out (the same way a piece of soft metal will mushroom if ya hit it with a hammer) if that occurs while fireing it will never be possible to maintain equal bolt contact as if that right shoulder is soft then it will continue to fail hence the headspace getting long.......... much like trying to jack up your car with half the jack sitting in soft sand while the other half is on solid ground...... the jack will tip over, in this case the bolt cannot lock up consistently...... the bolts locking lug rests solidly (or it should) against that shoulder...... I think the confusion is in folks not recognizing that there are TWO totally different concerns being shown the original is Pullthru's which is of the bolt locking recess , the second is 6500RPM's showing the gap on the left BC area

Pullthru all I can recommend in light of the posts from the manufacturer is that you spend the extra $$ to have the receiver properly heat treated by a competent shop specializing in firearms...... after the 4140 steel is correctly heat treated ya should not have any further problems I sure as hell would not use one of the receivers in the condition yours in the pic is in as there is simply too much liability in the event it kabooms on someone..... a large part of that liability rests with the manufacturer however you as the builder/owner knowing it was deffective would share in it.......
__________________
---------------Sometimes a cannon ball across the bow will get their attention better than a tap on the shoulder-------------
dstorm1911 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 11:08 AM   #18
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

"Pullthru all I can recommend in light of the posts from the manufacturer is that you spend the extra $$ to have the receiver properly heat treated by a competent shop specializing in firearms...... after the 4140 steel is correctly heat treated ya should not have any further problems I sure as hell would not use one of the receivers in the condition yours in the pic is in as there is simply too much liability in the event it kabooms on someone..... a large part of that liability rests with the manufacturer however you as the builder/owner knowing it was deffective would share in it......."

Yep, that's the reason I 've seldom used it or sold it. Thought about breaking it down and selling off the parts, but for now, it remains a glorified Paperweight/wallhanger

dstorm 1911:
Appreciate your effort to create an environment where people with questions, could get answers / solutions to their questions.
Sadly, in this case, I believe it to be a futile excercise.

Last edited by PULLTHRU; 02-26-2008 at 12:00 PM.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:13 PM   #19
millersm99
Member
 
AKaholic #: 3081
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 264
Default

The remedy? At a loss I sold my beautiful ARM built on this reciever, with clear communication to the buyer what he was getting into. Maybe he used it for parts, I don't know.

The weapon headspaced properly before shooting, and after 20 rounds, closed easily on a field gauge.

In my opinion the gun would never be right, and I don't think that's a good thing for a gun to be. Not mine anyway.

Gunplumber may be a dick, but his message on this one is correct.
millersm99 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:18 PM   #20
PILMAN
Member
 
AKaholic #: 8352
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 26
Default

How would one tell if their receiver is heattreated properly? Is there any way to get the crucial areas tested?

I haven't seen any pricks on my receiver.
PILMAN is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:10 PM   #21
Sophicles
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 923
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 251
Default

Now I feel that I should go re-check the headspace on my build. GREAT!
Sophicles is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 05:42 PM   #22
6500rpm
Senior Member
 
6500rpm's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3450
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St Louis
Posts: 919
Default

Sorry if I caused confusion with the picture of the bolt carrier to receiver mating on the left side. This is completely different than the mushrooming of the lug channel that PULLTHRU mentioned, although I have both issues on MY build. I wasn't sure if the bolt carrier gap could in anyway lead to headspace growing-Todd has indicated not, and I can respect that, just looking for cause and effect issues related to the build process, not faulting the receiver at this point.
I can say that even though I attempted to correct uneven contact between the left and right bolt lugs, by dressing down the right lug, I must have duffed it on my first go round as the right lug and channel only show contact. I still need to shot it with the new second bolt that took considerable dressing to get what I think is even contact. Headspace is good. I'm going to spray the bolt lugs with Dykem befor I shoot it and check it often to see if a pattern shows even contact.

Todd, please lighten up, this could all be part of the build process that we home builders are missing or screwing up. I know this whole deal is a pain in the ass, but you are making the receivers available for recreational builders to build on. If we're F'ing up, all I ask for is for some tips. No moore or less.

Another thing that occured to me is that is it possible that the receivers aren't soft, only that they're softer than the bolt lugs. I don't know if anyone has ever checked bolt hardness, but if the bolt is harder than the receiver, then the softer of the two is going to show the effects. Headspace errors and uneven contact in the lugs can only aggrivate this if true. Just something else to think about in terms of growing headspace issues.
6500rpm is online now  
Old 02-26-2008, 07:16 PM   #23
6500rpm
Senior Member
 
6500rpm's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3450
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St Louis
Posts: 919
Default

Bolt carrier to receiver gap doesn't seem to be consistant through the AK family, as Todd suggested, I checked several different AK's and they ranged from spot even, to gap left or right side depending on what model. (measured w/ feeler gauge)
Although the Galil was larger than any, the 12 ga @.027 would be showing something if it was a factor as it gets used a lot, including slugs.

ORF Galil .076" Gap LH
Saiga 12 .027" Gap RH
Romy G(x2) both dead even
Romy WASR even
Yugo M92 .025" Gap LH
Yugo M70 .030" Gap LH
Tantal >.010" Gap RH

Other Galil makers (non-ORF receiver) would be nice to benchmark how different galils spec out in this area and possibly end that debate.

****please remember, this is bolt carrier to receiver gap and has nothing to do with bolt lugs to channels/ headspace****
6500rpm is online now  
Old 02-26-2008, 08:09 PM   #24
6500rpm
Senior Member
 
6500rpm's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 3450
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St Louis
Posts: 919
Default

Last thing I have concerns fitting bolt lugs/headspace is from the notes I made when fitting the second bolt (New or VGC stripped bolt from Sarco Inc). It required me to remove .030" more from the right bolt lug to get even contact between left and right side lugs. This involved several passes against a mircometer adjustable grinding stone fixture, followed by a light coat of titanium white on the bolt lugs, then test fitting and checking for contact marks. After even contact was made, equal amounts were removed from left and right bolt lugs until bolt just closed on a go gauge. As soon as the weather breaks, I'm going to start running some rounds and see if the issue is gone.
I just posted this as a reference as to what I did, the receiver was a early 2007 ORF, made for Century.
**Note, this was on the second bolt installed. RH bolt channel area had some slight mushrooming at this point (enough to almost close on a field gauge), so I don't know how the .030" additional removed from the right bolt lug would compare to fitting to a virgin receiver***

Time for me to step down and read feedback, I don't think I have any other observations, or area's of concern on mine.
6500rpm is online now  
Old 02-26-2008, 10:05 PM   #25
Rapid Fire
Banned
 
Rapid Fire's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 648
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Troy, Ohio
Posts: 267
Default

DS,
As I said, no ill will towards USGI. Thought the thread as you laid it out was, owners, builders, and what they encountered and we were getting rid of the "theory" folks. Jump me all you like, these opinions by people and some gunsmiths are just that. Plenty of good ones know what there doing and building LOTS of great Galils.
USGI,
As I said, no ill will. You took the effort to read here, so I was wandering how in all our ads you missed the fact they were billet machined. And yes billet to cast "IMHO" is always the best. I have seen 1, yes 1 billet we've cut have a pore in its side. You'll never be 100% sure what lies underneath in castings and forgings.
Mustang 6500 and others,
Your following exactly what I have been saying. If the bolt does not contact both sides 100%, ones gonna give, don't care how hard it is RC wise. GPs and others builds that this was never looked at or checked, and now they mushroom and loose headspace, thats why, bolts done seated and now headspace is long. I went to push a VZ58 barrel out today, piece of A2 hardened to about 50rc, I was not lined up on it 100%, pressed with our 20ton H, and it bent. Tried it again with a new piece, took my time made sure I had full contact, and it came out without bending, damn was it in there though, hell of a pop to break loose.

Todd@ORF
Rapid Fire is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 11:21 PM   #26
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapid Fire
DS,
As I said, no ill will towards USGI. Thought the thread as you laid it out was, owners, builders, and what they encountered and we were getting rid of the "theory" folks. Jump me all you like, these opinions by people and some gunsmiths are just that. Plenty of good ones know what there doing and building LOTS of great Galils.
USGI,
As I said, no ill will. You took the effort to read here, so I was wandering how in all our ads you missed the fact they were billet machined. And yes billet to cast "IMHO" is always the best. I have seen 1, yes 1 billet we've cut have a pore in its side. You'll never be 100% sure what lies underneath in castings and forgings.
Mustang 6500 and others,
Your following exactly what I have been saying. If the bolt does not contact both sides 100%, ones gonna give, don't care how hard it is RC wise. GPs and others builds that this was never looked at or checked, and now they mushroom and loose headspace, thats why, bolts done seated and now headspace is long. I went to push a VZ58 barrel out today, piece of A2 hardened to about 50rc, I was not lined up on it 100%, pressed with our 20ton H, and it bent. Tried it again with a new piece, took my time made sure I had full contact, and it came out without bending, damn was it in there though, hell of a pop to break loose.

Todd@ORF
How do we achieve, ensuring both bolt lugs have the correct amount of contact with left and right locking surfaces in the receiver ?

If one side is not contacting , why would that be and what would be the procedure for rectifying the problem.
Thank you.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 12:10 AM   #27
dstorm1911
Curio & Relic
 
dstorm1911's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 4307
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mostly Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,758
Default

Todd, I try to remain impartial in ALL my dealings on AK Files regardless what my personal feelings might be (its a lil tough at times LOL), I jumped ya as opposed to deleting your previous posts, this thread was setup specifically so that you and your customers can discuss this issue and hopfully everyone ends up satisfied as I see this being the only way this bickering and name calling etc.. can be brought to an end.

I asked that folks contributing to this thread stick with facts and valid ideas (rather than smart ass crap that will not help anyone) ANYONE can feel free to offer any suggestions or ideas, we have a very diverse group here on the files many who are very capable of helping with finding a resolution..... Basically a huge think tank at your fingertips....... some comments might have already been considered in the past, just like the 20 or so e-mails I get every week asking the same build questions I've answered on at least 5 forums already... rather than get an attitude I simply go through the same answers one more time cause ya know what...... that person might not have visited one of those forums or I send em links to the info....

you are going to see some of the same suggestions or theory's (thats how builders think and if ya think bout every project you have ever introduced... did it not start with a few guys bouncing theorys around or did you simply wake up one morning with the FCG rework etc.. all in your head? doubtful, usually involves ALOT of theory until the workable solution comes along) in this thread that might have already been covered in that 12 page monstrosity, don't assume everyone has read every page of that thread, all the bickering turns most readers off right away so they end up going into skimming mode...... this thread will be very closely moderated and will not be allowed to veer off of its intended goal which is to help these members who might have a problem with their receiver.......

That being said lets keep it on track people, from this post forward all posts must contain no name calling or personal attacks, I will not waste my time editing those posts they will simply vanish, if I have to make too many vanish then the person responsible will most likely vanish themselves....

Now on with the thread....... anyone who has any ideas or info feel free to share them, Todd ya might have to repeat stuff ya have already posted elswhere one more time but that should be all as I expect anyone to READ previouse posts first to see if what ya are about to post might already have been covered rather than ask the same thing over and over, if your looking for additional info about something thats been posted PLEASE quote the comment you are seeking clarification on to help keep things clear and by doing so it will not look like you are asking the same exact question thats already been answered etc...

Hopefully I can stay outa it from here on out and ya'll can discuss this issue ......... but I will be watching
__________________
---------------Sometimes a cannon ball across the bow will get their attention better than a tap on the shoulder-------------
dstorm1911 is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 01:29 AM   #28
Uxkid
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 1109
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 11
Default

The locking lug recesses on the receiver I returned to ORF were noticeably uneven. A new bolt held against the left recess would "rock" when pressure was then exerted on the right lug of the bolt. Not a lot you can do here. There was no way in He** that I was going to remove material from the bolt. The way I see it the engineers designed that bolt with a certain thickness and a certain hardness. Screwing with that could cause some problems.
Uxkid is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 09:28 AM   #29
Uxkid
New Member
 
AKaholic #: 1109
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 11
Default

"Armscorp M14NM/ M21 receivers do the exact same thing. The bolt rocks if you can get the bolt to rotate fully into battery at all.

In the Armscorp the left bolt lug must be modified to fit and get the thing to work properly and it is not a problem or a deal breaker. A shallow precision grinding operation will not significantly effect the heat treatment of a bolt locking lug.

Grinding/lapping both lugs is the only way to headspace a Chrome lined GI barrel. On match barrels we lap lugs for contact using a non embedding compound and then use a Clymer pull through match reamer.

On any newly mated receiver barrel bolt combination one will experience some slight set back/ increase of headspace upon first firing. Headspace should not grow significantly after that."


Yes but modifying one of the lug contact areas would open up the headspace wouldn't it? It all comes down to how much you need to lap it/grind it/etc. On that receiver the gap was visible and the rocking of the bolt pretty significant. It might have been made to work but I just wasn't going to take the potential risk of having a wall hanger. Maybe this is what PullThru is seeing? Was his bolt or recesses lapped/modified to take into account the uneven surfaces?
Uxkid is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 11:33 AM   #30
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

I bought three New bolts (IMI), so had four , including the one in the kit.

I was previously under the impression, that setting headspace was a function of "linear"---adjustment, as opposed to additionally adjusting, a bit on the left and a bit on the right etc.on the back of the bolt. I had no choice in this case, to ensure contact on both receiver lugs. I relieved the rear bolt lug surface.
Once it was set, there was no measurable gap either side. After the initial 30 or so rounds fired, left side had .003" measurable gap and the right side still had full contact.---But it did have, the newly developed "Public Confusion" lump on top of the receiver right locking shoulder.
This happened in early 2005 I believe. Manufacturer informed me a while back, "it's shooting in, ----It'll settle down".

Last edited by PULLTHRU; 02-27-2008 at 11:51 AM.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 01:16 PM   #31
Sophicles
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 923
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 251
Default

Well I just re-checked the headspace on my Galil build, and it closes on the NOGO. I spent a lot of money on a new IMI barrell, so Im quite angry right now. What is my recourse at this point??
Sophicles is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 02:42 PM   #32
millersm99
Member
 
AKaholic #: 3081
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophicles
Well I just re-checked the headspace on my Galil build, and it closes on the NOGO. I spent a lot of money on a new IMI barrell, so Im quite angry right now. What is my recourse at this point??
Welcome to the club. If you look closely at the right bolt locking surface on the receiver you will probably see some distortion. I could feel it with my finger. My ejector also showed visible rounding and distortion.

None of this is normal, nor acceptable. Junk.

My barrel was new IMI also, and not cheap....

To Todd's credit he did try to swap bolts and fix the growing headspace problem. But the issue is the receiver machining and hardness. Can't fix that.

Last edited by millersm99; 02-27-2008 at 03:54 PM.
millersm99 is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 03:21 PM   #33
PULLTHRU
Member
 
AKaholic #: 2992
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 252
Default

Perhaps the Manufacturer is considering a Recall Notice to properly investigate the issue ?. As no answers or reasons appear to be forthcoming on what is causing these issues and no official remedy in sight, it would certainly illustrate the Manufacturer really values the customer and supports shooter safety.
PULLTHRU is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 07:02 PM   #34
Sophicles
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 923
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 251
Default

Well.....I shot an email to Mark Graham aka Gunplumber regarding this issue. This was prior to reading the other thread that wsa 12 pages long and his responses. Needless to say his response was a curt one sentence, and not what I wanted to hear.

So I basically have a $1000 conversation piece instead of the Galil I always wanted. Great! I attempted to email Todd at ORF, but there wasnt even an email address posted on his website (that I could find). Now what?? Anyone?
Sophicles is offline  
Old 02-27-2008, 07:19 PM   #35
Sophicles
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 923
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 251
Default

OH just for information....The rounds that have gone through this rifle were a mix of South African surplus, and Q3131 Israeli made Winchester. Just plain old 55 gr stock.
Sophicles is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The AK FIles