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Old 07-14-2018, 04:00 PM   #1
1biggun
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Default PERCISON AK BUILD / 308 VEPR BOLT WILL IT FIT ??

Cerephim was kind enough to loan me a 308 Vepr bolt to examine and compare . I want to thank him first .


He is considering a run of these so if you guys are seriously interested in a high power build this might be the ticket to and that missing puzzle piece .
The two lug bolts will work but I feel there at the limits of what is really safe .

IF ANY ONE HAS A 308 VEPR OR SAIGA BOLT FOR SALE IM LOOKING .
I need one for a Precision AK47 target build (PAK47) . ( don't laugh unless your willing to bet it cant money it cant be done )

OK Will it fit?? Maybe .

The Vepr bolt has longer lugs and there slightly wider . It is narrower than a Saiga 308 however

It will slide into a Yugo m70 , 72 , AKM and a AK 74 trunion .
It will not fit as is .
the bullet guide hits on the AKM at the turning ramp for the bolt .
On the m70 /RPK it hits the turning ramp and it also appears the area behind the lugs may not allow it to go in far enough . As the trunion get thicker . so the trunion or the bolt may need to be machined slightly .

on the AK 74 trunion ( I have a cut barrel stub still on the receiver ) the bolt slides in but it is very snug and will not cear the leading edge of the bullet guide so the guide will need to be lowered to be able to work .

Im gong to have to pull the bullets guides on all three to see what will and will not allow the bolt to go in the trunion and rotate in and to see how the third lug fits the LH lower side of the trunion .

I learned a few new things today . one is the AK 74 has a forward facing tab that sticks out over the bolt head that would prevent the bolt form rotating when in battery . No big deal really but I area that might allow a more consistent lock up on a precision build if tuned to fit .

The 308 Vepr bolt appears to be almost identical to a AK 74 bolt except for the Bolt face is bigger and the are on the bottom that runs over the rounds in a mag has a lug built in . the lugs are longer like a 5.45 bolt and that places the bolt face further forward so You would likely need a AK 74 bolt turning ramp position . I think if the edge of the bullet guide was lowered the bolt may fit a AK 74 trunion .



I have a lot of things to look at here . Ill have to demll the AK 74 barrel assembly and receiver chunk and pull the guide

308 Vepr bolt on the bottom with a AKM and AK 74 bolt .

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Old 07-14-2018, 04:06 PM   #2
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The Vepr 308 bolt up close .
Note the AK 74 style extractor and cut for it .

This has a spring loaded pin something I would like on a PAK47. The parts rattling around the better IM0

Last edited by 1biggun; 07-14-2018 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:06 PM   #3
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308 Vepr ,
AKM and a AK 74 bolt

Not the AK 74 and 308 bolt share about the same lug length

The across the lugs width
The AK 74 is .999"
The AKM t width is 1.008"
The 308 Vepr width is 1.031"
The 308 Galil Is wider yet ( Ill get it later )

Last edited by 1biggun; 07-14-2018 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:07 PM   #4
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the 308 bolt hitting the turning ramp on the bullet guide on a AKM trunion . I think if this was moved forward or a AK 74 guide was fitted it with the bottom machined down it would fit .



Last edited by 1biggun; 07-14-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:08 PM   #5
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the M70 /RPK is a bit interesting .
The area in font of the lugs get narrower ( were the red arrow is )

Until I pull the bullet guide I cant see if it will fit or not. Im thinking no .

I think the trunion and or the bolt cold be precisely fitted in this area to eliminate play and improve truing .


Last edited by 1biggun; 07-14-2018 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:09 PM   #6
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:13 PM   #7
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spot for pics
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:48 PM   #8
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The wider with of the bolt is IMO a plus .
1. it can be made narrower if needed .
2 it allows for a pretty precision fit in the trunion for a consistent lock up .
zero or near side play could be made possible. this would aid in truing a bolt even if you had some carrier to receiver play .
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:50 PM   #9
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:28 PM   #10
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It might be unobtanium, but if you could find an RPK-74 trunnion, I bet that would be the best of all worlds. It would have the bulges for additional strength, could take the thicker 1.5mm receiver, and has the allowances for the longer lugs of the thin stem bolt.

The problem is finding one...
Just a thought.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:30 PM   #11
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Can a standard trunnions be modified for the 3 lug bolt?
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:42 PM   #12
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The trunnions already have provisions for the third lug. At least, the AK-74 trunnions do. 1biggun will have to speak about the AKM trunnions.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:18 PM   #13
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The area the
third lug is is already there on the trunion . Its directly across form the RH lower lug

I cant say yet if the bolt lug will hit it correctly on any of these yet . Ill know in a few days after I drill out a bullet guide rivet or two .

I think the AKM trunion will have room for the lugs to go in and clear with the bolt turning ramp moved forward like in a AK 74 bolt on a AKM trunion .

On the Yugo RPK 7.62x39 trunion It may require some slight machine work or a little time with a die grinder or a dermal l with a ball shaped cutter or stone . it would be very slight .

the other way would be to just massage the bolt slightly were it hits . If bolts were available that would be the best IMO

Im not going to mess with some one else's bolt to find out LOL

Id rather be able to fit the bolt so it cant have side to side play in a target set up .

Im not convinced that floating the bolt floating is not as good in this application but if you are going to try and true it better it can only lock up in one position .

The 5.45 trunion is a pretty tight fit but it does slide in until it hits the bullet guide lower lip . I would imagine if you could find a 5.45 RPK trunion and lower the bullet guide were the bullet rides over it would work as is .

If I could have one of these made to my specs id want a slightly over size OD stem the carrier can be honed for a precision fit , a slightly smaller firing pin hole ( it can always be opened up .
id want a .440 bolt face in it so a full power 6mmPPC , 6.5 Grendel , or 7.62x39 can be ran at 65,000 PSI like a target bolt action rifle .
Id make the lugs slightly wider so the blt can be fitted to the trunion . This is not a big deal but its easer to remove metal than add it .

I wonder how this would fit in a Trotort receiver ?? I wish I had one to try .

I can envision a very accurate rifle built on a bolt like this fitted to a AK 74 carrier on a Tortort milled receiver with the barrel bore threaded to 1 1/16" to take a Remington 700 style barrel with the threads carried back or a barrel nut like the savage uses .
Id need about $2000 and the bolt to do it .

Now what would be real cool is if our bolt maker offered a super dupper PAK47 BIGGUN bolt and trunnion combo able to take a 308 otr 6.5 CM round as is.

Ill take two maybe three bolts first .
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:22 PM   #14
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As far as i know the Vepr does not use the conventional AK or AK74 turning guide; right? Other than providing the "kick" to start bolt rotation and keeping the magazine from rising in the front these do very little to "guide bullets" like they do in the M76, PSL, AK74, and 5,56 x 45 AK-type.

That being the case, the guide may not be as thick (at the bottom) as the normal AK unit. 5,45 x 39 and 5,56 x 45 guides are considerably thicker (at the bottom) than the 7,62 x 39 units.

Regarding the RPK74; I have held but one (01) parts kit in my hands. The bulged breech block was identical to the 7,62 x 39 RPK and the only difference was the 5,45 x 39 turning guide. The rivet hole for these is 1,0mm closer to the front of the block/frame. This particular kit used a regular AK74 small stem bolt.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:34 PM   #15
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This is an awesome build, I’m excited to see how it turns out for you
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:46 PM   #16
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As far as i know the Vepr does not use the conventional AK or AK74 turning guide; right? Other than providing the "kick" to start bolt rotation and keeping the magazine from rising in the front these do very little to "guide bullets" like they do in the M76, PSL, AK74, and 5,56 x 45 AK-type.

That being the case, the guide may not be as thick (at the bottom) as the normal AK unit. 5,45 x 39 and 5,56 x 45 guides are considerably thicker (at the bottom) than the 7,62 x 39 units.

Regarding the RPK74; I have held but one (01) parts kit in my hands. The bulged breech block was identical to the 7,62 x 39 RPK and the only difference was the 5,45 x 39 turning guide. The rivet hole for these is 1,0mm closer to the front of the block/frame. This particular kit used a regular AK74 small stem bolt.
I have never seen a 308 Vepr first hand .
My 308 Saiga has no guide in it .
it uses a rivet or pin to start the bolt rotating like a lot of Saigas do .

The 308 saiga has the bottom of the trunion relieved to allow the mag to be moved forward . Its reinforced around the cut out as well .

If one wanted to make a 308 with the mag moved forward like this it would take some work .

a 308 Saiga bolt is differ tin several areas including the third lug .
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:19 PM   #17
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This is an awesome build, Iím excited to see how it turns out for you
Ill be building some thing with or with out a 3 lug bolt no matter what .
A few guys have ran there mouth off else were way to much so I decided to just build it an prove what it can or can not do .

I have done 1/2" Ak's s already but my word never seems good enough .
to its time I just build a new rifle and find a way to document its success or failure .

Im looking at sub 1/2" MOA but lets set that as rough goal .

Ill be using a stamped receiver regardless so guys cant claim its not a AK type build ( yes Ill be using a .060" thick receiver that's not actually AKM ) and aside form the threaded trunions I have the build will be repeatable by others with mostly off the shelf part and some basic machine shop equipment . I have a lathe and a mill and welders.
Ill be doing at least one build in round that will fit in a AK length mag well so guys cant say its not a AK any more .

The optic mount will likely be the most complicated thing to make . I have not yet figured what im going to do on these builds .

This will not be a AK vs AR thread or build . I may refer to what works and what may not on other guns but this will be what a AK base build can do .
Frankely I don't give a rats ass what someone's AR does at this point .
If I can beat them when done great if not do be it .


Ill have some coin in it . Mainly the barrels .

I have one cut rifle barrel blank that is not perfect but should shoot better than a factory barrel on most bolt guns .

Id love to have a 3 lug bolt so can basically use loads from proven bench rest rifles .

I feel a two lug bolt is safe for 308 but I feel it it very close to the limit .
I don't want to be worrying about head space or my face .

Im considering a few rounds as the ultimate in accuracy for this at 100 yards .
the 6mmPPC , the 6mm Bench Rest a 6mmBRX and a 6mmBeggs that is basically an necked down 7.62x39 but on 220 Russian brass that may feed better with less damage on a auto loader .
I only have a 6mmBRX reamer at this time . if some one has a 6mmPPC reamer they would like to share or sell cheap Im looking maybe .

I don't have a lot of time or money so a round that's well proven like the
he 6mmPPC would save a lot of R&D and time and cost .
Picking something that wont be a limiting factor is likely a good start .
the 6mmPPC runs on a factory AKM bolt face this will safe time and money . I don't like the large firing pin hole however on a small rifle primer .

the 6MM BR and BRX will work on a .470" bolt face the same as a 308 .
its not as accurate as 6mmPPC at 100 yards but rules in the 300 yards and out stuff .

I want to go into this knowing the barrel and the ammo would be capable of winning ( be competitive ) in bench rest competition if it was screwed onto a capable rifle. ( something I can actually do if done in the right order )
since Ill likely be building a bolt action in the same calibure this seems like a good plan .

A 223 will likely be done also at some point The barrels will be interchangeable , but Im looking at using that advantages and strengths that my parts have so I can run a more powerful higher bolt trust round . Its not my problem what other rifles are limited to only what my parts cant do is a worry .

Id love a 308 Vepr bolt but it may not be in the cards for some time if ever .
I think three lugs would give a more consistent chambering under load .

If any one sees a 308 Vepr kit for sale IM I looking . these occasionally pop up as law enforcement seizure salvage but very seldom.

I have a 308 Saiga I bought to do a 260 rem on about 10 years ago but at what there selling for now im not tearing it apart and I don't really like there trunion .
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I have done 1/2" Ak's s already but my word never seems good enough .
Maybe because no manufacturer has done it along with the IMI that built a DMR AK based Galil that did 1.5 MOA and they accepted the results.

A .5 MOA AK is a unicorn along with a sub MOA AK if it resembles an AK or not.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:43 PM   #19
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Maybe because no manufacturer has done it along with the IDF that built a DMR AK based Galil that did 1.5 MOA and they accepted the results.

A .5 MOA AK is a unicorn along with a sub MOA AK if it resembles an AK or not.
You going to follow me around the internet much more ?

Do I look like a manufacturer to you ??

I have been posting groups I have shot since about 2004 . I have nothing to gain buy doing this . I sell no product currently

I could give two fucks what a galil with likely a hammer forged barrel ( I don't know what it has ) hand guards and a mil spec chamber does . form a article you found , nor do I need to see your bolt action ruger rifle you bought an its nice group .

Go down stairs a bit here and you will find plenty of guys with galils that shoot under 1.5"

research the Valmet rk 62 there known to shoot sub 1 MOA in 7.62x39 no less and its a battle rifle .
Guys from Africa are shooting Vektor R4's in international competition and wining member just Pm'd me .

Like I said here and else were do you care to put your money were your mouth is ?
Ill bet you right now I can produce a consistent sub 1 moa AK rifle using a AK or AK variant trunon and bolt in a rifle . something you have stated is impossible . Talks cheap.


Tell you what keep your mouth shut and ill build this and then you can talk all the shit you want when its done that or go build your own AK and well see who,s shoots better .

I have shown you nothing but respect as a builder on multiple sites and you wish to go around calling me a lair .

I have shot sub 1" 5 shot groups with a bunch of Akin at least 4 calibers and done it enough to know its not a fluke .

Id like to keep this a build and discussion of that builds thread not a shit show that you seem to want to turn my threads or posts into .

Id rather burry the hatchet now and have your viable constructive input or none at all .

Ill get this built . Ill find a non disputable way to document its accuracy or lack of and then you can talk your shit .
You can either learn something or get a good laugh I really don't care .
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:19 PM   #20
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Question on the bullet guide interference thing.

Does bolt clear on the approach(before rotation starts) and then corner digs on rotate?
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:50 AM   #21
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Question on the bullet guide interference thing.

Does bolt clear on the approach(before rotation starts) and then corner digs on rotate?
On the 7.62x39 trunions the bolt cant rotate because the Lugs have not cleared . So it basically just hits the turning ramp and stops because it cant rotate .
Same as when you try to use a AK 74 bolt on a 7.62x39 trunnion and bullet guide . You have to move the turning ramp for ward or move the bevel on the bolt back .

On the 5.45 trunion the edge that guides the bullet hits the bolt face so I cant tell if it would rotate in or not .

Ill be happy to take any pics you want on this or any thing else any one want ot know before I send the bolt back .

Id love to find a few of these bolts .
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:02 AM   #22
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Of the three identical appearing Yugo m70 type trunons I have sitting here the fit id very different on every one .

one the bullet guide its the bolts bottom . on another the turning gude stops it and on a third the bolt barely slides in at all but would make a very nice fit Im sure

I wish the AK 74 bolt had the wider lugs like this .
the Vepr bolt has .0015 more bolt lug on each side it would seem . even I a two lug bolt I have often felt that the AK 74 bolt might be stronger with its longer lugs and more lug before the pin hole on the RH lug . the fact there narrower across is interesting .

Id rather see more lug on lug spreading the load out .

I think I have 6 AK 74 bolts stashed away should drag them out and see if there all the same .
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:06 AM   #23
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On the 7.62x39 trunions the bolt cant rotate because the Lugs have not cleared . So it basically just hits the turning ramp and stops because it cant rotate .
Same as when you try to use a AK 74 bolt on a 7.62x39 trunnion and bullet guide . You have to move the turning ramp for ward or move the bevel on the bolt back .

On the 5.45 trunion the edge that guides the bullet hits the bolt face so I cant tell if it would rotate in or not .

Ill be happy to take any pics you want on this or any thing else any one want ot know before I send the bolt back .

Id love to find a few of these bolts .
Gotcha
From pic above looked like lug of bolt that guides bullet was hitting bullet guide on rotate...was gonna suggest relieving this area of guide(in rivet area) as Hungarian ak55 guides are relieved there(more debris clearance? ) versus other 7.62 guides are flat
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:53 AM   #24
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Gotcha
From pic above looked like lug of bolt that guides bullet was hitting bullet guide on rotate...was gonna suggest relieving this area of guide(in rivet area) as Hungarian ak55 guides are relieved there(more debris clearance? ) versus other 7.62 guides are flat
on one 7.62x39 trunion the bolt does hit the guide mid point but its not at the rivet area .

guys will call me a liar but here is a group I shot in 308 x39 with a 110 grain v max .

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Old 07-15-2018, 02:02 AM   #25
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I could likey put a better barrel on this build and get under well 3/4" MOA .
this is my 6mmBRX . its a hunting rifle built with a $15 new 243 rem 700 take off barrel rechambered with original profile and even finsh except were the GB is and the last 2" removed and turned down to 23 mm and a step up to about 1" for the RSB I sliced and diced for the cantilever rail and big barrel .

The sides of the RSB flex more than the actual rail .

I have done about 3/4" with it using some cut down 308 brass . Ineed to get it back out and try some real Lupia brass and form it for the brx .
I don't expect much from the barrel . It was done more as proof of concept and to figure out the mags .
really cheap scope BSA $19
Time and money .

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Old 07-15-2018, 03:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Maybe because no manufacturer has done it along with the IDF that built a DMR AK based Galil that did 1.5 MOA and they accepted the results.

A .5 MOA AK is a unicorn along with a sub MOA AK if it resembles an AK or not.
IDF never built Galil Rifles


Although the early 1980's (IMI) Galatz was called sniper they were purposed as DM rifles. They have gone through some changes along with the ammo loads & calibrated Nimrod scopes.

The rifles are built in small contract runs. They are also licensed built in a couple countries other then .IL



The IWI Galil Sniper SA (Galatz = Galil Tzalafim) is an Israeli semi-automatic sniper rifle based on the ultra-reliable IMI Galil assault rifle. While the original Galil Sniper was not considered as a good sniper rifle, the new 2000's version by IWI is far more successful and accurate. The new IWI Galil Sniper SA has similar performances to the Knight SR-25 semi-automatic sniper rifle: it has an estimated accuracy of 0.5 to 1.0 minute of arc (MOA) and a range of up to 800 meters. the Galil Sniper inherits the reliability of the AK47-based Galil rifle.

Caliber: 7.62x51 mm NATO (0.308 Winchester).
Accuracy: < 1 MOA.
Maximal Effective Range: 800 meters.

Just about any rifle can be improved.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:56 AM   #27
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on one 7.62x39 trunion the bolt does hit the guide mid point but its not at the rivet area .

guys will call me a liar but here is a group I shot in 308 x39 with a 110 grain v max .

Thats quite impressive bud.
Excellent for anything that even slightly resembles a ak
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:06 AM   #28
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Cerephim was kind enough to loan me a 308 Vepr bolt to examine and compare . I want to thank him first .


He is considering a run of these so if you guys are seriously interested in a high power build this might be the ticket to and that missing puzzle piece .
The two lug bolts will work but I feel there at the limits of what is really safe .

IF ANY ONE HAS A 308 VEPR OR SAIGA BOLT FOR SALE IM LOOKING .
I need one for a Precision AK47 target build (PAK47) . ( don't laugh unless your willing to bet it cant money it cant be done )

OK Will it fit?? Maybe .

The Vepr bolt has longer lugs and there slightly wider . It is narrower than a Saiga 308 however

It will slide into a Yugo m70 , 72 , AKM and a AK 74 trunion .
It will not fit as is .
the bullet guide hits on the AKM at the turning ramp for the bolt .
On the m70 /RPK it hits the turning ramp and it also appears the area behind the lugs may not allow it to go in far enough . As the trunion get thicker . so the trunion or the bolt may need to be machined slightly .

on the AK 74 trunion ( I have a cut barrel stub still on the receiver ) the bolt slides in but it is very snug and will not cear the leading edge of the bullet guide so the guide will need to be lowered to be able to work .

Im gong to have to pull the bullets guides on all three to see what will and will not allow the bolt to go in the trunion and rotate in and to see how the third lug fits the LH lower side of the trunion .

I learned a few new things today . one is the AK 74 has a forward facing tab that sticks out over the bolt head that would prevent the bolt form rotating when in battery . No big deal really but I area that might allow a more consistent lock up on a precision build if tuned to fit .

The 308 Vepr bolt appears to be almost identical to a AK 74 bolt except for the Bolt face is bigger and the are on the bottom that runs over the rounds in a mag has a lug built in . the lugs are longer like a 5.45 bolt and that places the bolt face further forward so You would likely need a AK 74 bolt turning ramp position . I think if the edge of the bullet guide was lowered the bolt may fit a AK 74 trunion .



I have a lot of things to look at here . Ill have to demll the AK 74 barrel assembly and receiver chunk and pull the guide

308 Vepr bolt on the bottom with a AKM and AK 74 bolt .

Looking forward to hearing what you find out regarding what's possible! If he makes a run of these, I would be interested. I'm knee deep in my first build, & this is too much fun!
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:16 AM   #29
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IDF never built Galil Rifles


Although the early 1980's (IMI) Galatz was called sniper they were purposed as DM rifles. They have gone through some changes along with the ammo loads & calibrated Nimrod scopes.

The rifles are built in small contract runs. They are also licensed built in a couple countries other then .IL



The IWI Galil Sniper SA (Galatz = Galil Tzalafim) is an Israeli semi-automatic sniper rifle based on the ultra-reliable IMI Galil assault rifle. While the original Galil Sniper was not considered as a good sniper rifle, the new 2000's version by IWI is far more successful and accurate. The new IWI Galil Sniper SA has similar performances to the Knight SR-25 semi-automatic sniper rifle: it has an estimated accuracy of 0.5 to 1.0 minute of arc (MOA) and a range of up to 800 meters. the Galil Sniper inherits the reliability of the AK47-based Galil rifle.

Caliber: 7.62x51 mm NATO (0.308 Winchester).
Accuracy: < 1 MOA.
Maximal Effective Range: 800 meters.

Just about any rifle can be improved.


IMI / my bad.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:31 AM   #30
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IMI / my bad.
He still burnt you good in the rest of the paragraph.
.5 MOA- 1 MOA out of a Galil (milled AK) based semi auto pretty much proves that the AK can be accurate if built correctly. Now with that settled let’s get back to how to build one shall we?

My 26” HB savage bolt gun won’t shoot better than 3” groups with factory ammo. Does that mean all savage bolt guns are shit compared to an AR? Side note; my hand loads do a consistent 10 shot 5/8” group.

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Old 07-15-2018, 11:53 AM   #31
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He still burnt you good in the rest of the paragraph.
.5 MOA- 1 MOA out of a Galil (milled AK) based semi auto pretty much proves that the AK can be accurate if built correctly.

Meh.
Like I said a unicorn.
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:25 PM   #32
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Meh.
Like I said a unicorn.
Cal I respect you as a builder . I know you have skills .
Lets burry the hatchet and move on please .

I never said there was a lot of accurate AK's . Unicorn is not a completely inaccurate description in fact its actually pretty spot on.

That said who has really but much effort it one ?

How many truly good barrels have been stuck on a AK with a heavy contour ?
How many guys have gotten the scope mounted on area not affected by receiver flex ?
How many guys have had a 2 pound trigger on a AK? ( not recommended )
How many guys have taken the time to really work up accurate loads for these rifles In a dozen calibers ?
How many guys have ever had a custom reamer made for 7.62x39 or used a match chamber in a 223 or other round ?
How many guys have ever even really looked at the factory chamber specs?
How many guys have ever put a stock on that bags well ?
How many guys have ever really messed with the gas system and how fits or changed it ?
How many guys even make a serious effort to even shoot a AK accurately ?
How many guys have then put all the above into one rifle ??

I have seen heavy barrels that were not great quality but then cheap ammo or no load development , I have seen good barrels but a lousy scope mount , I have seen good barrels but a loose chamber and no real effort to make it shoot

I did not get the results I have had so far by accident .
Sure a lot is just sticking a good barrel on and making a scope mount that dosent move every time the receiver is loaded differently , and some good ammo .

From the time I shot my second build a AMD 65 pistol and was getting right at one inch groups with hand loads and literally angel iron welded to a gas tube for a optic mount I knew then and there 90% of what guys were saying about AK, snot being accurate was bullshit .

Go back and read the magazine articles form 15 years ago loose tolerances , battle rifle , flexing receivers , bla bla bla and most of them shit ammo that was 8 cents a round with open sites among the worst on a rifle and a trigger that is also among the worst .
Its really hard to even find a decent range report on some one really trying to see what a was possible . Even still here its often will im bangng steel at 100 yrds off a card table in the wend with Wolf type stuff .

I assure you I have not been doing this for 15 years and 25,000 posts on the matter and lying about it because maybe 10 guys care about it might be impressed .
I don't haul a rifle 700 miles to go shoot a damn prairie dog with 7 or 8 buddies with something that cant shoot and leave other accurate more expensive rifles home . lay out and the hot sun for 8 hours to just miss everything . This is what I do with my rifle ( haven't gone the last two years ) . I really don't even shoot it for groups that much . 99% of my shooting is on Pdogs . I shoot targets when I make a change to the rifle do load development or need to zero it .
I hand throw my powder charges until I find one that shoots and then I set that up in the powder dispenser and pull the handle about 1,000 times .
not every load I shoot is some super precision match grade round . but generally I could grab 5 rounds out of a bag of 1000 and keep them under 3/4" in South Dakota mid day conditions ( meaning wind )

The next rifles ( there will be two ) im looking to see what it can really do in a serious target type environment were im running real high quality brass, barrel and better optics and all that .

All I ask is guys keep a open mind and look at the actual parts a good barrel and thing OK why cant this be a accurate rifle . The stamped reciver is a obstacle for many but its manly because guys want to place the scope on it.
the flex of the recvier is not going to create a situation were a round will chamber so inconsistently that a 1/4" capable barrel and chamber will suddenly shoot 3 inch groups . Im sure it affects thing to a degree but not to the degree guys are claiming .
Im sorry but if you have a good barrel and a tight chamber and consistent head space its hard to make a 1/4" capable barrel not shoot well on any type of action as long as the optic is holding zero .

Guys have been flapping the lips about my mounts are unsupported and cant hold zero . My current mounts are more rigid than the damn scope tube.
there more rigid than the damn PEPR type mounts I see on AR's .
Yea the whole no end of the rail thing looks like some mosin BS but looks and what it does are two different things .

Any one ever really try and flex a .060 Yugo receiver ?
Im not going to make this a AR VS AK thread but I assure you a that the deflection of my set up between the optics and the barrel is less as the barrel arms up or the rifle changes position in the bags .

IMO the key to most of this is making the optic point were the bullet is being sent . If optics is used the mount is extremely important .

Your not going to clamp a mount on a 1/4" strip riveted to the idle of
.040" piece of sheet metal bridging the stock and the barrel under varying tension and flex from firing with the center of the optic nearly 4" ( OR SO ) from the mounting point . any receiver deflection will be multiplied considerably at the optic center line .

Stamped revivers especially .040" ones twist every time you shoot. The flex up and down evey time you move the rifle change a bag position. you will not get accurate results form attaching a optic mount to them . Its impossible !

When I get around to getting a certain US made AK back up and running in 6.5G Ill do side by side test of my mount and a side rail on the same rifle with the same optic and ammo . I already know the results before doing it .



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Old 07-15-2018, 02:07 PM   #33
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Here is a pic of a build I did a while back. It's a Saiga 762 bolt and barrel in a Bulgarian 762 22mm trunnion. the 762 BG was replaced with a 545, then machined down to fit the big chin on the Saiga bolt. It works but I felt like I was milling about as far into the bullet guide as I dare. With a Vepr 308 bolt you would need to make that cut a hair deeper and a lot wider.

Might be better to go without the guide and make a rivet style bolt turner like the Vepr.







Note the generous space in the Vepr 308.








Saiga 762 vs Vepr 308 bolt comparison. The Vepr is about 1mm larger in diameter.





I hope there is some info here that will help.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:21 PM   #34
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some good pictures .

Quote:
With a Vepr 308 bolt you would need to make that cut a hair deeper and a lot wider.
Ill be running 7.62x39 trunions and bullet guides .
the Vepr bolt clears or nearly clears all the 7.62x39 guides as is .

Since 308 Vepr bolt will only have a .470 bolt face Id only be running rounds with a bigger OD so I would not likely have to deal with a 5.45 bullet guide that is much thicker .

Id love to see 3 lug bolt with a .440" face for a PPC type round . If they started with a .440 face they could easily be machined bigger and the bolts could be all made in one run .

someone needs to go to Russia and get a suit case of Vepr 308 bolts.

Its always puzzled my why there were never any spare 308 saiga or Vepr bolts or other parts shipped over . The cost to make them would be the same and they surely would have sold .

A 308 vepr bolt and trunion combo would easily sell IMO. I already suggested this to Cerephim .
Id make the trunion so a ak 74 carrier hits it correctly ( likely the same as a 5.45 RPK ) Id want it at least 23 mm for the barrel and bigger would not hurt .

I think a Tortort type receiver and 308 bolt would sell as well .

Right now there are zero 308 or similar AK type rifles coming in. the market is there IMO for US based alternative . set it up for m14 mags or similar .
I think if the accuracy was there a 6.5 CM AK variant would sell well ..
just give the trunion a palce to add a optic rail whle were at it .


Id be happy with just a bolt for now .

Last edited by 1biggun; 07-15-2018 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 02:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post


Ill be running 7.62x39 trunions and bullet guides .
the Vepr bolt clears or nearly clears all the 7.62x39 guides as is .
The reason I used a 545 guide was the bolt turning ramp is correct for the long lug bolt.
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