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Old 08-10-2018, 01:22 PM   #1
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Default Ak bolt carrier bottom angle that contacts the hammer.

Just out off curiosity, does anyone know the reason or if there is a standard for the chamfer angle on the bottom of the AK's bolt barrier which contacts the hammer to push it down? I believe it's 45 degrees with a straight drop , what if it was more rounded at the corners?

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Old 08-10-2018, 02:22 PM   #2
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So the transition dragging across the hammer goes easier.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:50 PM   #3
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Yes i should have rephrased, what about the 45 degree straight bevel vs being rounded at the corner? If it was rounded, would that pose any potential issues?
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:50 PM   #4
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They very.
A yugo is much more gradual.
Than a AKM.
On my custom stuff I change the profile so it is more gradual .
The slows the hammer speed. IMO is easier in the reciver pin hole and the FCG.

it's also smother cycling.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:51 PM   #5
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What if..
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:10 PM   #6
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i have reshaped and polished the shit out of them. its kind of pointless really. i learned to leave that shit alone.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:42 PM   #7
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It's a factory part, no reason to mess with it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:48 PM   #8
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Agreed. It's fine :-)
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:00 PM   #9
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Changing the angle (making it more gradual or rounding) will make the action smoother. 1biggun is right, the yugos are more gradual and of course in my opinion are some of the smoothest actions out there. Where you can run into trouble is if you take off too much of the flat or make the angle a lot longer. If you do that, there is a chance it wont push the hammer down enough or early enough to catch the disconnector.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:18 PM   #10
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I love yugo carriers for just that reason.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:13 PM   #11
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The shallower the angle the easier it is for the carrier to move over the hammer
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:18 PM   #12
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The bolt carrier is suppose to depress the hammer.

It is designed that way.

There's no advantage to changing the interface from the factory design.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allesennogwat View Post
The bolt carrier is suppose to depress the hammer.

It is designed that way.

There's no advantage to changing the interface from the factory design.
I seldom disagree with you but here I do .

The Yugo set is smoother and takes less pressure to set the hammer and charge the rifle . It also returns with less resistance meaning the carrer will be going home harder and likely chamber more reliably

look at how a Rommy hits the hammer vesus the hammer .

the Rommy moves it down abruptly with less amount of carrier travel this a this increases hammer speed and takes more pressure on the carrier to do it . this also means more pressure applied to the parts means more wear .

The Yugo ramps the hammer down gradually with more carrier travel the hammer speed is going to be less .

push your car up a steep ramp to raise it 3 feet vs a gradual hill which takes more pressure to push it ?? If your pushing in the trunk what method is likely to dent it ?? What carrier version is putting more stress on the part including the pin holes .



Take a performance cam shaft in a car . both have the same lift and the same amount of effective duration but one has less amount of duration to lift the valve fully up . the one with the steeper ramp will have more valves spring control issues and breakage and wear . Its also why they go to roller cams to allow faster valve action .


To make it simple all the carrier needs to do is get the hammer down before the carrier gets all the way back . no need for it to move it back so fast as long as it gets pushed down . No reason to beat it down with less carrier travel .
the carrier is damn near trying to knock the hammer back wards VS down on some AKM's
not all AKMs have the same amount of material between the bolt bore and the start of the taper that pushes the hammer down .

Your also increasing upward pressure on the carrier creating more drag .

A Yugo ramps it down slower and smoother and with less friction .

put that pull gage all you guys thing is needed to set head space on it and compare the two if you don't believe me .

On my target crap I wanted the smallest gas port possible and I want it to be as easy to charge as possible . I ran is as a single shot for over a 1000 rounds when built . so it mattered to me how hard I had to pull the charge handel and how much gas it took to cycle it .
I think I was able to run about .008" smaller port .
I concluded this when I substituted an non modified carrier and the rifle did not cycle .
the more the hammer is pushed down the more hammer spring pressure is applied and the more friction and resistance to make things work .
the les resistance the smoother , reliable and controllable things are .
I have never checked the difference in pull pressure to set the hammer but its considerably less .

A smooth action is going to be more controllable in full auto IMO .
I have no idea if the amount of carrier travel needed to get the hammer down affects the full auto parts I don't even know how they fit.

I don't like carriers hanging up on the hammer when pulled back gently .

On a custom I fit the hammer and the carrier so the hammer is lowered down just enough for it get below the disconector . less hammer travel is less wear and I also don't need the hammer it any lower so why have twice the movement and wear if Its not needed . the less work the carrier has to do the less pressure and force is needed . Also less return travel of the hammer snapping back on the disconnected .

MY carrier is tapered nearly to the bore for the bolt so dosent slam in to the hammer as sharply . ( don't go to thin as that area is also doing the work it could break ) compare

I may remove a slight amount from the carrier bottom but I always polish it . I generally remove material and change the angle of were the carrier first hits the hammer as well .

the ramp on the return end of the carrier can be changed as well as the Hammer and the return stroke can be considerably smother and require less return spring pressure . also less hammer bouncing from the carrier knocking it down . IMO its more likely to stay on the straight bottom of the carrier as it rides over vs bouncing . Not a big deal but IMO smoother and likely more reliable .


the Yugo carrier has a less aggressive angle and the are that rides the hammer is narrower and rounded . Its much smoother . it looks like some hand smoothing and fitting is done .
the AKM ( Im looking at a Hungarian right now ) is strictly machined and likely done in less steps / faster ,

I just swapped the two out and the pressure to set the hammer is less on the stock Yugo carrier . Im not sure if this a milled or stamped . You the expert there .

I have been looking a lot at maximum consistent return pressure for chambering on tighter rounds for the PAK ( precision AK) so the return stroke is of importance to me


ALL THAT SAID A STOCK SET UP WORKS FINE .
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:25 PM   #14
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It doesn't change the performance of the rifle.

The hammer needs plenty of push to reset reliably.

The Yugo bolt carrier is similar to the Hungarian bolt carrier, in that they hybrid mixes of milled receiver and stamped receiver designs.

The Romanian bolt carrier is a pure stamped receiver design.

The Yugo may run so smoothly, people claim the M70's are overgassed.

Maybe some resistance is part of the design to slow down some moving parts.

QUOTE=1biggun;4764332]I seldom disagree with you but here I do .

The Yugo set is smoother and takes less pressure to set the hammer and charge the rifle . It also returns with less resistance meaning the carrer will be going home harder and likely chamber more reliably

look at how a Rommy hits the hammer vesus the hammer .

the Rommy moves it down abruptly with less amount of carrier travel this a this increases hammer speed and takes more pressure on the carrier to do it . this also means more pressure applied to the parts means more wear .

The Yugo ramps the hammer down gradually with more carrier travel the hammer speed is going to be less .

push your car up a steep ramp to raise it 3 feet vs a gradual hill which takes more pressure to push it ?? If your pushing in the trunk what method is likely to dent it ?? What carrier version is putting more stress on the part including the pin holes .



Take a performance cam shaft in a car . both have the same lift and the same amount of effective duration but one has less amount of duration to lift the valve fully up . the one with the steeper ramp will have more valves spring control issues and breakage and wear . Its also why they go to roller cams to allow faster valve action .


To make it simple all the carrier needs to do is get the hammer down before the carrier gets all the way back . no need for it to move it back so fast as long as it gets pushed down . No reason to beat it down with less carrier travel .
the carrier is damn near trying to knock the hammer back wards VS down on some AKM's
not all AKMs have the same amount of material between the bolt bore and the start of the taper that pushes the hammer down .

Your also increasing upward pressure on the carrier creating more drag .

A Yugo ramps it down slower and smoother and with less friction .

put that pull gage all you guys thing is needed to set head space on it and compare the two if you don't believe me .

On my target crap I wanted the smallest gas port possible and I want it to be as easy to charge as possible . I ran is as a single shot for over a 1000 rounds when built . so it mattered to me how hard I had to pull the charge handel and how much gas it took to cycle it .
I think I was able to run about .008" smaller port .
I concluded this when I substituted an non modified carrier and the rifle did not cycle .
the more the hammer is pushed down the more hammer spring pressure is applied and the more friction and resistance to make things work .
the les resistance the smoother , reliable and controllable things are .
I have never checked the difference in pull pressure to set the hammer but its considerably less .

A smooth action is going to be more controllable in full auto IMO .
I have no idea if the amount of carrier travel needed to get the hammer down affects the full auto parts I don't even know how they fit.

I don't like carriers hanging up on the hammer when pulled back gently .

On a custom I fit the hammer and the carrier so the hammer is lowered down just enough for it get below the disconector . less hammer travel is less wear and I also don't need the hammer it any lower so why have twice the movement and wear if Its not needed . the less work the carrier has to do the less pressure and force is needed . Also less return travel of the hammer snapping back on the disconnected .

MY carrier is tapered nearly to the bore for the bolt so dosent slam in to the hammer as sharply . ( don't go to thin as that area is also doing the work it could break ) compare

I may remove a slight amount from the carrier bottom but I always polish it . I generally remove material and change the angle of were the carrier first hits the hammer as well .

the ramp on the return end of the carrier can be changed as well as the Hammer and the return stroke can be considerably smother and require less return spring pressure . also less hammer bouncing from the carrier knocking it down . IMO its more likely to stay on the straight bottom of the carrier as it rides over vs bouncing . Not a big deal but IMO smoother and likely more reliable .


the Yugo carrier has a less aggressive angle and the are that rides the hammer is narrower and rounded . Its much smoother . it looks like some hand smoothing and fitting is done .
the AKM ( Im looking at a Hungarian right now ) is strictly machined and likely done in less steps / faster ,

I just swapped the two out and the pressure to set the hammer is less on the stock Yugo carrier . Im not sure if this a milled or stamped . You the expert there .

I have been looking a lot at maximum consistent return pressure for chambering on tighter rounds for the PAK ( precision AK) so the return stroke is of importance to me


ALL THAT SAID A STOCK SET UP WORKS FINE .[/QUOTE]
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:51 PM   #15
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Your the expert on what model has what differences in in the parts .

is slowing down the carrier after unlock with the hammer part of the design allowing a lighter recoil spring ? I don't know . Maybe it allows less recoil spring tension I don't know . I don't know how Full auto would affect any of this either .

IMO the hammer rets more reliably when it dosent snap from a further distance .

I only need to get below the disco to be reliable . going a a quarter inch past or what ever it is only add more drag on the carrer and that means its not as smooth .

The idea that they over gas the gun to assure more reliable un lock and extraction and use hammer friction as part of slowing it down is plausible but Im not sure Im buying it .
I think is more likely the AKM carrier is just easier to machine and less steps and thus faster and cheaper .

For my stuff Ill go with smoother to load and a smaller gas port if at all possible .

Now thanks to you I have to go stare at A Hungarian AMD carrier VS Rommy AKM carriers and learn the differences for a few hours .


the AK 74 is really different with the extended for ward ramp , Some thing Im conserving using to my advantage on the PAK build .

there may be some small stem 7.62 bolts in the work .
I might just throw a fish scale on the charge handel and see what factory one does what as far as needed pressure .
Ill bet the carrier on my target/ varmint rig is way less .
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:29 AM   #16
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hey biggun, dont forget that the trigger sear plays a huge part in how much pressure it takes to rack the action. im positive you know that though. i noticed a huge difference between a romanian trigger and a yugo trigger. one had a really steep angle and one had a shallow angle. if that info was already put in the 10,000 word essay above, sorry, its 5:30am :-)

Last edited by timhogan427; 08-11-2018 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:26 AM   #17
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Most wear comes from the immovable components like the lips on the receiver where the carrier rides. The only resistance the hammer offers is the spring rate of the hammer spring and like Tim said , the disconnector. The hammer is at 90 degrees initially before it even gets to the ramp. When I researched info on the subject, when I did my 9mm conversion, it was said the carrier return spring played very little part when you consider 50 KPSI chamber pressure. The most influence on slowing the carrier is the mass of the carrier, that was why weight had to be added to the carrier for the 9mm conversion because it eliminated the lock and delay. The carrier spring and trigger were unchanged.
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Old 08-11-2018, 12:20 PM   #18
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These I have found to require more pressure to rack the action compared to the others with the different angle
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:19 PM   #19
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Holy long winded posts!

As noted the carrier under body at the rear underside ramp varies.
In milled firearms it is a lot more angled along it's length or V shaped. In the AKM the bottom profile is more flat.
I suppose there is a reason. Maybe more consistent hammer contact along a wider surface area? dunno.
It works so I leave them as designed vs assuming an improvement over the original.

Each to their own carrier care.

Example of Zastava milled on left and stamped on right. Both interchange.
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Old 08-11-2018, 01:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
Holy long winded posts!

As noted the carrier under body at the rear underside ramp varies.
In milled firearms it is a lot more angled along it's length or V shaped. In the AKM the bottom profile is more flat.
I suppose there is a reason. Maybe more consistent hammer contact along a wider surface area? dunno.
It works so I leave them as designed vs assuming an improvement over the original.

Each to their own carrier care.

Example of Zastava milled on left and stamped on right. Both interchange.
The milled receiver and AKM have different hammer profiles.

The stamped Yugo bolt carrier has the flat bottom and cut on the side, but it contacts the trunnion on the same side as a milled receiver bolt carrier.

The Bulgarian 5.56 and the Hungarian stamped receiver bolt carriers have the flat bottom but the rest of them is the same as the milled receiver bolt carriers.

The stamped receiver bolt carrier may have some feature that favors the rate reducer, maybe if it sticks or something.

maybe they were trying to add some weight to the stamped receiver bolt carrier, as the weight ratio to bolt weight increases reliability as the bolt carrier increases and the bolt decreases.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #21
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m
Make a ramp that's 2 feet high . On one use a board that's 2.5 feet long and one other use a board that's 4" long .

get on your Schwinn Sting Ray and make jump off of each one .
what one makes the forks want to break and make you do a face plant over the handle bars ?
I had this stuff figured out when I was 5 .

the carrier tail moves the hammer back until the bottom of the carrier comes in and hits below the hammer face . That angle can be optimizes also so its not beating the hammer straight on .
At that point the hammer is actually seeing back and up force the pin makes it swing down . the angle on the hammer can be adjusts slightly but not much because the area were it hits the firing pin needs to be square .
the pin actually takes a pretty good beating on the AK .

Guys need to keep in mind the carrier is also making contact with the round in the magazine . Id prefer an smoother pass over the ammo .

I don't know why one carrier is narrower and one is not ?? but the wider one moves the ammo more in the mag as it passes since rounds are off tot he side .

AK blue thanks for that picture . I see form it I was comparing a milled Yugo carrier last night ( I got it from 4thIDvet from Gunco years ago remembers him ? )

Not how on both of the ones in your picture the forward ramp is looks to be hand ground . On a AKM and AK 74 that area is just milled at a an angle about like the rear of the stamped carrier in your picture .

MY guess is the AKM and AK 74 were just easier to make and cheaper and since they worked fine that what they used .

I have seen the margin from the bore for the bolt to the start of the ramp vary greatly on different flavors and also in the same make .
I profiled my first one because the ramp was not even making initial contact and it was hard to work the action .

Again the stock set up works fine . If you want a bit smoother action the angles and lengths f them can be tweaked a bit something a factory is not likely to do by hand .
I know I can run a slightly smaller port after I rewoked my 23 Varmint bild on Rommy parts .

The recoil spring plays little in a blow back I think it plays a bigger part in a gas operated locking breach fire arm .

On a blow back the weight of the bolt assembly has to be enough on its own to allow the fire arm to fire .

I have been told that if the spring is left out the gun still will not blow apart .

I don't want a lot of spring pressure . just enough to ensure the action closes and the round chambers . a lot of variables with this form the forward mass to the pressure of the spring its self.

Im not sure of but would like to know at what point the carrier and bolt was to light to to have enough forward mass to chamber a round with a normal spring or if it would matter at all. ??
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:09 PM   #22
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No can do. Sold the Sting Ray for $425 in 2008.
Otherwise be all over that test.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:11 PM   #23
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Quote:
The milled receiver and AKM have different hammer profiles.
Ill have to look at that . I have kits with both still I think .

I never paid to much attention because most my stuff got a US hammer and trigger .

what is the difference in the Galil sniper type rifles as far as hammer and trigger ? Im told there different but have never had a way to compare them ??
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:19 PM   #24
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No can do. Sold the Sting Ray for $425 in 2008.
Otherwise be all over that test.
\

LOL my X wife worked in receiving at Saint Vinnies about then and we managed to get about 5 of the Schwinn's with shifters and one with a springer front end because they were not safe to sell . I sold the one with the springr front end for $2200 .
the others went for about $400.
I used to sel at all the car swaps then . she sold Beanine babys and made a killing LOL . Those bike were a hot item back then

I broke a lot of stingrays and Huffys back in the 70's in the beginning of BMX before there were store sold BMX bikes . Dad used to gusset them for me and raise the cranks up so I could run longer ones off a 10 speed .
made my own frame from EMT conduit in the 9th grade metal shop in 1977 . Its still at my dads , It was copied by R&R and sold commercially I was robbed IM telling you . I had first twin tube top bar BMX frame . was in BMX mags and every thing .
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by timhogan427 View Post


These I have found to require more pressure to rack the action compared to the others with the different angle
were and how the carrier hits the curve under the hammer face will determine how smooth the action cycles . on some triggers the curve almost causes the hammer to lift up or catch the carrier .

The more you study the AK the more you question who designed it and how it was done so fast .
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by timhogan427 View Post


good example

These I have found to require more pressure to rack the action compared to the others with the different angle
were and how the carrier hits the curve under the hammer face will determine how smooth the action cycles . on some triggers the curve almost causes the hammer to lift up or catch the carrier .

The more you study the AK the more you question who designed it and how it was done so fast .
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:37 PM   #27
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Funny thing is, it still works and always will.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Ill have to look at that . I have kits with both still I think .

I never paid to much attention because most my stuff got a US hammer and trigger .

what is the difference in the Galil sniper type rifles as far as hammer and trigger ? Im told there different but have never had a way to compare them ??
In the Galil sniper and in SOME 308 Galil's the hammer and trigger are machined to mimic the M1 Garand / M14 timing.

The M14 timing was the goal when designing the Galil parts.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:33 PM   #29
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That's actually pretty cool.
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by allesennogwat View Post
In the Galil sniper and in SOME 308 Galil's the hammer and trigger are machined to mimic the M1 Garand / M14 timing.

The M14 timing was the goal when designing the Galil parts.
Id like so try one of those triggers some day .

One of the hurtles Ill have to over come is getting a really good trigger that's remotely reliable at a light pull weight for the PKM .
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:53 PM   #31
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Most of the milled receiver triggers are nicer than the stamped receiver triggers.

it's not because of the double hooks, but because they have completely different interface dimensions than the stamped receiver triggers and hammers.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:25 AM   #32
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Lots of good discussion on this, makes great points about a seemingly trivial design aspect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by timhogan427 View Post


These I have found to require more pressure to rack the action compared to the others with the different angle
Is that the Romanian trigger? I can't find it on their website currently, but i was about to say out of all factory triggers, i do love the Romanians. They seem to have quicker double taps compared to the Tapco G2 and some others, and parts 922r withstanding, the Romanian trigger when fitted in other AKs, allows the hammer to sit lower due to the trigger shelf forcing it to sit down more. This makes the bolt carrier return smoother. They are also not cast metal.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:52 AM   #33
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I have seen Romanian triggers have that huge triangle area and the smaller angled version as well in surplus. That's just an example photo btw.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:53 AM   #34
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IO1

All this comparing milled to stamped of this to that has one problem ... there might be 20 years between the manufacturing of one v the other.
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:09 AM   #35
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^^^ Of course but the AK has undergone dozens of changes that one can compare and contrast or speculate on why it was done. Not a big deal as compatibility was maintained over the manufacturing life of the firearm in the operating system. And of course different countries of origin and manufacturing deviations.
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