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Old 12-06-2017, 01:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyhipockets View Post
So I can't help but wonder: regardless of the proper way to perform this check, will pushing the carrier forward with 33lbs of force damage the gauge or chamber? Obviously slamming the carrier home under full force of the return spring is a bad idea. How much is too much? I have applied moderate thumb pressure and it's hard to think I have damaged anything but I could be wrong.
The gauge is hardened and ground to precision. The barrel is also hard but not as hard as the gauge unless it is chromed. 33# dead weight should not harm anything, impact is the bad thing.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:08 PM   #37
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To the point “Using the carrier and action return spring assembly during headspace to apply force.“


The Polish firm of WBP Rogow headspace verification procedure.

See 1:57. in this video link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAZ5cEoQDs

For the above procedure to yield consistent results the barrel hardness value and the gauge hardness values are varified and within specs.

What is unknown in the above procedure: The value (length, coil dia, etc.) of the action return spring. Test spring vs actual action return spring.

Approved headspace verification is covered in the armour’s manual.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:12 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by GTR View Post
To the point “Using the carrier and action return spring assembly during headspace to apply force.“


The Polish firm of WBP Rogow headspace verification procedure.

See 1:57. in this video link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAZ5cEoQDs

For the above procedure to yield consistent results the barrel hardness value and the gauge hardness values are varified and within specs.

What is unknown in the above procedure: The value (length, coil dia, etc.) of the action return spring. Test spring vs actual action return spring.

Approved headspace verification is covered in the armour’s manual.
In the early build he is using a test carrier. Later in the video around 5:20 you see him using the finished matching carrier and testing is done with only hand pressure, no spring in the carrier. It is easy to see the carrier closing on the Go and not on the no go.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTR View Post
To the point “Using the carrier and action return spring assembly during headspace to apply force.“


The Polish firm of WBP Rogow headspace verification procedure.

See 1:57. in this video link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZAZ5cEoQDs

For the above procedure to yield consistent results the barrel hardness value and the gauge hardness values are varified and within specs.

What is unknown in the above procedure: The value (length, coil dia, etc.) of the action return spring. Test spring vs actual action return spring.

Approved headspace verification is covered in the armour’s manual.
Great video, no hammer was used for fine tuning the bolt.
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:28 PM   #40
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Doesn't seem right to me to say a Go gauge should not completely close. I would think if a No Go was on the max acceptable measurement then the Go gauge would certainly be closing. And a field gauge is the ultimate limit and I am to believe a Go gauge is still not rotating completely?
When headspace is set that lug may or may not contact right side trunion. It touching is not a indicator headspace is set, although usually a by product of.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:32 PM   #41
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When headspace is set that lug may or may not contact right side trunion. It touching is not a indicator headspace is set, although usually a by product of.
So what do you use to determine if the bolt has rotated enough on the Go Gauge so it will accept all factory ammo tolerances?
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by OHVET View Post
Doesn't seem right to me to say a Go gauge should not completely close. I would think if a No Go was on the max acceptable measurement then the Go gauge would certainly be closing. And a field gauge is the ultimate limit and I am to believe a Go gauge is still not rotating completely?
The bolt is mechanically limited form hitting the trunion when the carrier is installed You want to check that the bolt can reach the maximum it can travel on a go gauge .



If your referring to rotating to a point were it hits the trunion then it is closed and past were it will be .

you want to check head space at the point were the bolt will be when its fired not some were it cant be .
the carrier prevents it from rotating past a certain point .

In the picture above its rotated past were it can go with a carrier involved .
from that point it can get slightly tighter due to the lugs being machined on a helix and the fact it will also rotate onto a unworn area of the trunion .

You can rotate it all the way like that and it ill still likely be fine but if you set it up really tight on the GO gauge at the rotated clear to the trunion position with certain gauges you may get close to a round may not chamber .
I think it gets around a .001" or less tighter on new parts . As I recall please don't quote me on that .

Keep in mind CIP and SAMMI gauges will be slightly different on the GO gauge a CIP can give a slightly tighter head space if you were to set up the gun snug on both .

I use a SAMMI gauge and I set it up snug with just a bolt .
the results should be the same with the carrier installed in what id call a final function check .

millions of rifles set up using the carrier method and 95% of the time or more it will work fine . I pointed out some personal examples of how it can fail . it takes maybe 5 minutes extra to use just the bolt first and then include the carrier and verify its the same . If its not it should be a big red flag.

Again check bolt , extractor to breach clearance before you ever install a barrel and if its already installed check it before you every check head space .
also make sure a round protruded about the same or slightly less than a NO go . this will verify that the neck and thorax is big enough to take a round .
I had a new barrel once that was short chambered and I had one once that the throat was to tight on . you should also check the carrier and bolt fit make sure is closes smoothly on a empty chamber if its tight that's sure the hell going to affect any pull gauge check . these are mechanical issues nt head space issues
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:48 PM   #43
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Why even use a gauge if you're going to hammer it in until it fits? The gauge is a measurement from a specific shoulder diameter to the bolt face. If you are one that leaned to use vice grips to tighten your micrometer spindle or put your calipers in a vice to make an accurate measurement then continue on. Others have tried to explain in very good detail what the added forces are for, bottom line, use common sense or find someone that has some. No real gunsmith would ever try to force a gauge of any kind.
Look pal just because you don't know how to properly use a digital C clamp dosent mean you can dictate how things should be done around here . This is were builders hang out .

Of course you put the digital C Clamp in a vice . Thats how you can free up an hand when clamping in the lower rails before you arc weld it in. Any experienced builder knows this. The numbers are to determine the pressure applied . I like to use about .060" of preload to hold things . Starret makes the best clamps

Hammering a gauge in is a good way to adjust the chamber depth . Its exactly like hammer forging except its for moving the shoulder area of the chamber forward . Duh why else do they take time to harden a gage ? Its so the softer chamber can be adjusted . Not sure how you guys ever get any thing done .
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:29 PM   #44
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Lmao good God 1bg let it go. The long winded serial killer manifesto responses are not even remotely needed. Major league dick swinging here.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:31 PM   #45
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No trying to dictate anything. No one said anything about digital c-clamps. Gauges are hardened so they can be accurately ground to 5 place tolerances so they can be certified to be within 4 place accuracy. Gauges aren't full chamber profiles and hammering them into a softer material will likely produce a ring in the shoulder area and possibly stuck cases. But you go ahead and hammer your gauge in until it checks good and I'll push the barrel back out a bit or give the reamer another twist.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OHVET View Post
No trying to dictate anything. No one said anything about digital c-clamps. Gauges are hardened so they can be accurately ground to 5 place tolerances so they can be certified to be within 4 place accuracy. Gauges aren't full chamber profiles and hammering them into a softer material will likely produce a ring in the shoulder area and possibly stuck cases. But you go ahead and hammer your gauge in until it checks good and I'll push the barrel back out a bit or give the reamer another twist.


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Old 12-06-2017, 07:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by OHVET View Post
No trying to dictate anything. No one said anything about digital c-clamps. Gauges are hardened so they can be accurately ground to 5 place tolerances so they can be certified to be within 4 place accuracy. Gauges aren't full chamber profiles and hammering them into a softer material will likely produce a ring in the shoulder area and possibly stuck cases. But you go ahead and hammer your gauge in until it checks good and I'll push the barrel back out a bit or give the reamer another twist.
If you can take anything seriously in that post then you don't know me very well LOL

The Digital C Clamp thing came about on a spoof weapons guild post from about 6 years a go . It was included with a 50 cal BMG I posted as well in April of that year I think . Its were I showed rails held in by a Mititoyo caliper ready for welding with a 3/16" rod

So to be clear I agreed with every thing you said on not forcing a gauge LOL

Last edited by 1biggun; 12-06-2017 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:54 PM   #48
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Lmao good God 1bg let it go. The long winded serial killer manifesto responses are not even remotely needed. Major league dick swinging here.
Well if some one read a few head space threads maybe we would not have 20 a month trying to under stand the bolt fits on a GO Gage and dosent on a NO go concept . Its pretty simple to under stand .

Yet we have guys writing books showing a bolt in a position it cant physically get to when installed and guys copying it as some sort of Gospel.

Unfortunately you cant explain the way a AK operates in detail in three lines .
you cant post because that not were you check it, because guys don't know why .
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Well if some one read a few head space threads maybe we would not have 20 a month trying to under stand the bolt fits on a GO Gage and dosent on a NO go concept . Its pretty simple to under stand .

Yet we have guys writing books showing a bolt in a position it cant physically get to when installed and guys copying it as some sort of Gospel.

Unfortunately you cant explain the way a AK operates in detail in three lines .
you cant post because that not were you check it, because guys don't know why .
Well when one person says this, and another says that, wouldn't that be a good reason why new threads appear on this topic? Especially when you can learn new things, like headspace gauges are made out of lead.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:18 PM   #50
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I think people use the method they do is because they can visually see the bolt's position and contact with the trunion is to error on the safe side with a positive stop. You can't see the bolt position in the carrier. True it can't normally rotate that far but the amount of change in dimension is hardly measurable.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:16 PM   #51
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Yea it's not much of a differance on new parts.
On used it can be a bit more.

I wish I had the Saiga 223 uneven lug contact rifle more documented . I have pictures of the amount the bolt was cocked on gunco some were.
That one almost fooled me because it was a rifle that did not shoot well.
I tossed in a guage and it passed so I started looking for other issues. Once I looked close at the brass I knew something was up but even then it took me awhile to figure it out.
Since then I check with just the bolt first.

There is about .006" between go and no go.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:40 PM   #52
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A number of years ago (2009-10) I watched a video filmed at a Kalashnikov factory. An assemble line of the AK74U. The video showed closeup shots of the tooling during barrel pin hole drilling and reaming including the headspace adjustment and verification procedure.

In the video the headspace was set tight (barrel pressed into breach block against a gauge with bolt locked) and barrel pin hole drilled and reamed . All in one fixture. Post barrel pin installation and the final headspace adjustment was achieved with a stone dressing the bolt lugs.

The action return spring was utilized to apply the force nessesary to lock on the gauge.

Same procedure in the Polish video I posted above.

Unfortunately I lost the video in a harddrive image restore using Microsoft’s piss poor operating system.

Last edited by GTR; 12-06-2017 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:59 PM   #53
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Yea, that's why it is nice to get matching numbers, it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling that it was checked and right at some point. Like the DPM and RPD the flaps can be .006 different in length but correct for the lug they mate with. It was kinda funny that in the video, with all the equipment, they hand filed the bolt lugs by eye. I was kinda amazed when I read that the SAW had a headspace range of .050 or .060. That's one reason I don't reload machine gun brass.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:18 PM   #54
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I'm fermilular with the SAW.
But depending on the amount of case protrusion/uunsupported brass the head space could be a far amount.

Consider the AK . The extracter cut is almost half the barrel.

Moving the case back say .020 if the inital protrusion is not a lot won't likely cause a case seperations but it's sure going cause the shoulder to blow forward. I'd like to see some fired brass that can move back .050"
For the record I'm not messing with a .020 loose head space.
I have seen a couple rearsonaled south American mausers that were really loose that never blew cases . Dangerous stuff.

I had about .020" past a NO GO on that 223 Saiga.
It never had a case seperations but I had seriously screwed up brass. The danger lies when the case expands to the chamber and sticks then the rear of the case stretches back.
That 223 was getting thinning at just forward of the case head and was damn close to letting go. I don't know how steel would have faired.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:20 PM   #55
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Adjusting final headspace with a stone (file) is the preferred method. A technician (properly trained) can achieve very close tolerances with dye and near perfect lug contact.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:23 PM   #56
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I had a couple matching numbers original barrel new AMD 65 KITS that were so tight there is no way they were functional.
One had no bolt to breach clearance.
My guess they were sold from a reject pile. I had two like that from the same venders on the same order.
Beautiful kits. One became a 243 win becuase the barrel was off so far. The other got parted out.
But no possable way a round could chamber.
Seen a few loose Rommy kits as well all matching.
Those were slightly used at least they were functional.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:41 PM   #57
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I just built a 450 Bushmaster on a Spanish Mauser small ring. The Bushmaster is only 40,000 psi so there is not a problem there. They were being rechambered to .308 CETME and the dealers were selling them as .308 NATO. After a couple thousand rounds the receivers stretched and the headspace went out of spec.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:51 PM   #58
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Can someone post a vid on the proper way to check AK headspace? I do t even know that shit.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:57 PM   #59
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I just built a 450 Bushmaster on a Spanish Mauser small ring. The Bushmaster is only 40,000 psi so there is not a problem there. They were being rechambered to .308 CETME and the dealers were selling them as .308 NATO. After a couple thousand rounds the receivers stretched and the headspace went out of spec.
Sounds like Uncle BoomBoom was running hot handloaded .308 Winchester through those remanned Spaniards.

They were proofed & found safe for 7.62 NATO.


Also, "7̶.̶6̶2̶ .308 CETME" is a unicorn ( never actually existed )
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:08 PM   #60
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Just what I read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9751mm_CETME
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:23 PM   #61
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Perhaps you've missed them, but every couple of years, studies are done on Wikipedia's data ( it's all open source ) and it is proven that > 50 people control 99% of Wikipedia.

If they don't want the truth in it, the truth will not be in it.

This is why we have dozens of Tanfoglio pistols listed as "Cz75 pistols" there ( no, they are not the same, regardless of appearances )


There was never a cartridge called the "7.62 CETME". It's a myth that keeps being perpetuated by ignorant folks.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:32 PM   #62
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I didn't know that. I was talking to a guy just last week that told me he had a case of 7.62 CETME marked ammo and he noticed a big difference in the recoil. I'll have to ask him to show me a box. Somebody must have printed up some boxes just for fun maybe. Interesting.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:47 PM   #63
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Is this the method you guys prefer?

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Old 12-06-2017, 11:51 PM   #64
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I didn't know that. I was talking to a guy just last week that told me he had a case of 7.62 CETME marked ammo and he noticed a big difference in the recoil. I'll have to ask him to show me a box. Somebody must have printed up some boxes just for fun maybe. Interesting.
Ahh, now that's a whole different thing.

The Santa Barbara arsenal produced an experimental .308 that was intended to be issued with the CETME.

This ammunition was - for all intents and purposes - 7.62 NATO, with the exception that the projectile used an aluminum core instead of lead.

This ultralight ammo was thought to be able to reduce the muzzle climb in CETME rifles firing in full auto mode.

TLDR: The Spaniards wanted "assault rifle" performance out of a battle rifle.


There was never officially a "7.62 CETME" cartridge.


. . . and now we're way off topic, aren't we? :/
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:52 PM   #65
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:57 PM   #66
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Is this the method you guys prefer?

As a Gunsmith ,looks fine. Personally I wont mess with the empty case and live round at end of video. His use of gauges looks technically correct.
There is always so much "feel " to these seemly simple processes, some people can do it some cant .
If in doubt take it to a professional.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:45 AM   #67
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Video looks good. keep it simple.

I hope all staff return for next weeks board of directors head space meeting.

If you can't make it, just click on the search button.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:25 AM   #68
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Video looks good. keep it simple.

I hope all staff return for next weeks board of directors head space meeting.

If you can't make it, just click on the search button.
Or, you all can make appointment and visit Ing. Robert Forbus and watch either Robert or Johann guide all through the documented Armorer procedures.

I own this engineering company and you will be on my turf. All lessons will conducted in German language so full emotion can be experienced and FELT.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:57 PM   #69
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Can someone post a vid on the proper way to check AK headspace? I do t even know that shit.
Pretty much goes like this: put some tape on the base of a field gauge, load it into mag, insert mag, retract the charging handle and let that baby slam the gauge home. This will set headspace up ideal for 80's style tactical mag dumps and shit.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:11 PM   #70
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Stupid question, so I rivet the front trunion to the receiver and I use the tooth tool barrel press. Once I get the barrel pressed on a decent way, I put the bolt and bolt carrier in the rails along with a "No Go" gauge and just start testing, if the no go, goes in full battery, I start pressing the barrel in a little further? It just seems tough to get it right with a Virginian barrel because the window is 0.005". Any suggestions on how to make this easier or is it just a very delicate part of the build?
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