Tiger Carbine:Gun Broker

[ncreptile]

And of course he was there at the factory to see them swap manufacturing procedures..

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by hakentt

True military grade PSL does not crack. Receivers made for export to USA are of lower quality steel.

We are talking about intended purpose here.

Originally Posted by FullAssault

How many “true military grade PSLs” do you or have you had access to? What type of tests have you ran on them to make this determination? Or by chance do you have this in print from a verifiable Cugir rep. Or is it just something else you’re seen or heard on a forum that you blindly take is gospel.

So hakentt, still waiting for your reply?

[voron]

Originally Posted by ncreptile

And of course he was there at the factory to see them swap manufacturing procedures..

took notes, pictures, etc.

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

So hakentt, still waiting for your reply?

The only military grade PSL imported into USA are the first ones that had auto sear then where required to be returned. These got exported to the middle east to soldiers who shoot anything that they can find. If your really think heavy grain projectile would sheer off rear rivets on military PSL then think again. Romarm and Zastava both made higher quality rifles in their communist days. Today's production is not at the same quality level. Romania does not make LPS scopes anymore, all of those scopes are made pre 1989, all the PSLs they were selling were pre 1989, they had to make new low quality receiver's just for the USA market in mid 2000s.

Bottom line is SVD is 2moa rifle and PSL is 2.5moa rifle at best. Both can be outperformed by the cheapest ar10. Would I pay $4500 for 2moa rifle? No.

[voron]

bottom line SVD is not a 2 MOA rifle. AK is though. Hence the PSL.

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by hakentt

The only military grade PSL imported into USA are the first ones that had auto sear then where required to be returned. These got exported to the middle east to soldiers who shoot anything that they can find. If your really think heavy grain projectile would sheer off rear rivets on military PSL then think again. Romarm and Zastava both made higher quality rifles in their communist days. Today's production is not at the same quality level. Romania does not make LPS scopes anymore, all of those scopes are made pre 1989, all the PSLs they were selling were pre 1989, they had to make new low quality receiver's just for the USA market in mid 2000s.

Bottom line is SVD is 2moa rifle and PSL is 2.5moa rifle at best. Both can be outperformed by the cheapest ar10. Would I pay $4500 for 2moa rifle? No.

i didn’t ask for diversions & backpedaling, I asked for actual proof of your claims. DO you have actual hard proof that military PSLs are better made?

[ncreptile]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

i didn’t ask for diversions & backpedaling, I asked for actual proof of your claims. DO you have actual hard proof that military PSLs are better made?

Mrs Cleo told him.

[WolfmanReid]

Originally Posted by hakentt

The only military grade PSL imported into USA are the first ones that had auto sear then where required to be returned. These got exported to the middle east to soldiers who shoot anything that they can find. If your really think heavy grain projectile would sheer off rear rivets on military PSL then think again. Romarm and Zastava both made higher quality rifles in their communist days. Today's production is not at the same quality level. Romania does not make LPS scopes anymore, all of those scopes are made pre 1989, all the PSLs they were selling were pre 1989, they had to make new low quality receiver's just for the USA market in mid 2000s.

Bottom line is SVD is 2moa rifle and PSL is 2.5moa rifle at best. Both can be outperformed by the cheapest ar10. Would I pay $4500 for 2moa rifle? No.

They definitely made LPS scopes well into the 1990s and I believe into the early 2000s. Berg has a photo of a 99 LPS on his website for example.

[savagebrother]

Jesus!!! You guys just love to argue with each other LOL!!!!!
The only SVD I ever got to fire was in 1979 and it was familiarization and we had some 7n1
Soviet stuff to shoot. We were shooting 2 to 3.5 MOA with this particular rifle and you had to keep it as close to the receiver as possible on the front rest bag. It was a lot lighter than it looked.
Now for my PSL, it was a kit gun starting out, had the original barrel too, picked this up in 2011. Well about 4 years later I found a nodac spud receiver, which has the squared off AK style at the rear of the receiver but also has the doubler plates. Well the original barrel was screwed up, (totally corroded to the gas block), soooo after a 2 year wait??? A préxis barrel shows up on my door step. Well I happen to get an adjustable gas block for it. Well then found a good smith to put things together and make corrections to the barrels machining.
Big thing I have found out about a PSL??? By adjusting the gas to just cycle the action it increases the accuracy a bunch as well as good ammo. I've only shot hornady ammo out of this gun, one for the brass and the other for cleaning. Any way a PSL can be tuned to shoot 1-1.5 MOA, oh and I can shoot any weight bullet I want.
SB

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by savagebrother

Jesus!!! You guys just love to argue with each other LOL!!!!!
The only SVD I ever got to fire was in 1979 and it was familiarization and we had some 7n1
Soviet stuff to shoot. We were shooting 2 to 3.5 MOA with this particular rifle and you had to keep it as close to the receiver as possible on the front rest bag. It was a lot lighter than it looked.
Now for my PSL, it was a kit gun starting out, had the original barrel too, picked this up in 2011. Well about 4 years later I found a nodac spud receiver, which has the squared off AK style at the rear of the receiver but also has the doubler plates. Well the original barrel was screwed up, (totally corroded to the gas block), soooo after a 2 year wait??? A préxis barrel shows up on my door step. Well I happen to get an adjustable gas block for it. Well then found a good smith to put things together and make corrections to the barrels machining.
Big thing I have found out about a PSL??? By adjusting the gas to just cycle the action it increases the accuracy a bunch as well as good ammo. I've only shot hornady ammo out of this gun, one for the brass and the other for cleaning. Any way a PSL can be tuned to shoot 1-1.5 MOA, oh and I can shoot any weight bullet I want.
SB

My Tigr averages around .75-1” with 182gr match and 1.5” with std 182gr ppu. So does my friends. Both our Dragunovs will out shoot the PSLs we owned. Especially after they heat up.



My PSL on the other hand got around 2.5” with 7N1 and Czech LB these were the best groups I ever got with it (the 7n1 didn’t shoot any better than the CZ). It averaged around 3-4” with everything else. none of the PSLs I saw or fired did any better regardless of ammo. In fact the worst groups I saw was with HB.


The PSL was an interesting rifle and for $500 is was a great deal BUT it is not as good as my Dragunov in any way except price. Here’s the real kicker, my old WASR would out shoot my PSL at 100yds.

[voron]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

My Tigr averages around .75-1” with 182gr match and 1.5” with std 182gr ppu. So does my friends. Both our Dragunovs will out shoot the PSLs we owned. Especially after they heat up.



My PSL on the other hand got around 2.5” with 7N1 and Czech LB these were the best groups I ever got with it (the 7n1 didn’t shoot any better than the CZ). It averaged around 3-4” with everything else. none of the PSLs I saw or fired did any better regardless of ammo. In fact the worst groups I saw was with HB.


The PSL was an interesting rifle and for $500 is was a great deal BUT it is not as good as my Dragunov in any way except price. Here’s the real kicker, my old WASR would out shoot my PSL at 100yds.

yea thats about what I get as well. Good point about the PSL's barrel when it heats up, it really tends to start spitting the rounds all over the place.

i had pretty good results using Hornady's 150 gr SST 0.311 bullets (strange, i cannot find them on the website now, but still have around 200 pieces at home) behind 44 grains of IMR 4064.
7N1 usually does really well, in its typical fashion of having a occasional flier that would open up the group to 1.5 MOA. 7N1 really starts to shine past 600 meters, where your regular PKM ammo shoots all over the place.

not surprised that your Wasr shot better that PSL. Its a gas piston gun with a longer barrel that is more prone to barrel whip.

lastly, the 1970s 202 grain Extra Olympic match brass cased ammo did not preform in my SVD. I suspect its the barrel''s twist rate. My Mosin sniper, however does exactly what the can's specs say on the front. fucking amazing.

[Mark75H]

My PSL doesn't shoot 7n1 any better than regular 188. It does shoot Czech a little better, but shoots under 2 moa with early 70's Bulgarian in the cardboard boxes.

[Towerofpower93]

Originally Posted by voron

i had pretty good results using Hornady's 150 gr SST 0.311 bullets (strange, i cannot find them on the website now, but still have around 200 pieces at home) behind 44 grains of IMR 4064.

That seems like a really mild load. I run the .311" 174gr Sierra SMK over 45.4gr of IMR4064 with a CCI#34 large primer in PPU brass.

Gets me 2500fps from my KBI SVD.

I ran that a few weekends ago for shits and giggles at the Staff shoot for a PRS match I was RO'ing.

Not running the PSO-1, but a 6-24x50 Vortex Viper PST Gen 1 on a low slung Molot SVD mount with a Russian tourniquet to add a little height to the cherkpad on the polymer stock.

Didn't do near as well as the 6.5 bolt guns, of course, but it was fun wringing the old girl out on the clock from awkward, improvised shooting positions. I tied for 12th out of 16 staff shooting, loosing the tie breaker stage to the other guy on time to come in 13th overall. Still beat two bolt gun .308s and the only other gas gun, an AR10 in .308.

Screwed up and didn't get any pics or video, unfortunately.

ETA: running a gas gun killed me in some regards as all stages had very limited round counts, most requiring the shooter to go one for one, and the recoil would bring me off the target and cause me to not see the splash from many of my misses, negatively impacting my ability to make adjustments to my windage and elevation holds. Guys on the glass spotting hits did say I was very consistent in my misses, so I think I'm putting a first focal plane scope on it in the future so I can adjust the magnification without having to do the math on the fly to change my dialed or held elevation adjustments. Either way, was a blast to go put 190rds through the SVD over a weekend of shooting which is as far from benchrest as you can get.

[voron]

Originally Posted by Towerofpower93

That seems like a really mild load.

indeed it is. You dont always get the best accuracy using hottest loads. Another very good (and this one almost compressed load) was using 46.8 grains of TAC by Ramshot. That shit sends that projectile almost nearly 2,700 fps at the muzzle.

Originally Posted by FullAssault

i didn’t ask for diversions & backpedaling, I asked for actual proof of your claims. DO you have actual hard proof that military PSLs are better made?

still waiting for this as well

[voron]

dt

[Towerofpower93]

Originally Posted by voron

indeed it is. You dont always get the best accuracy using hottest loads. Another very good (and this one almost compressed load) was using 46.8 grains of TAC by Ramshot. That shit sends that projectile almost nearly 2,700 fps at the muzzle.

Very true, a fast miss is never better than a slow hit.

My 174gr SMK load is an honest 1.5MOA 5 shot load and holds together at distance compared to the 182gr PPU and 180gr S&B Match loads with far fewer fliers.

I've only messed with the 174gr SMK and 200gr Lapua D166 in the SVD and the 174s in the Tiger/SVDS.

Didn't think the slower Tiger twist rate probably wouldn't do any favors to the D166 so I never tried them in it. At .60 each I didn't feel like burning through a 45rd OCW ladder to discover they won't group, haha.

[Holescreek]

Originally Posted by savagebrother

Jesus!!! You guys just love to argue with each other LOL!!!!!
The only SVD I ever got to fire was in 1979 and it was familiarization and we had some 7n1
Soviet stuff to shoot. We were shooting 2 to 3.5 MOA with this particular rifle and you had to keep it as close to the receiver as possible on the front rest bag. It was a lot lighter than it looked.
Now for my PSL, it was a kit gun starting out, had the original barrel too, picked this up in 2011. Well about 4 years later I found a nodac spud receiver, which has the squared off AK style at the rear of the receiver but also has the doubler plates. Well the original barrel was screwed up, (totally corroded to the gas block), soooo after a 2 year wait??? A préxis barrel shows up on my door step. Well I happen to get an adjustable gas block for it. Well then found a good smith to put things together and make corrections to the barrels machining.
Big thing I have found out about a PSL??? By adjusting the gas to just cycle the action it increases the accuracy a bunch as well as good ammo. I've only shot hornady ammo out of this gun, one for the brass and the other for cleaning. Any way a PSL can be tuned to shoot 1-1.5 MOA, oh and I can shoot any weight bullet I want.
SB

If you're using a Prexis barrel you should slug the bore. 99% of his barrels were Green Mountain .308 blanks. I received one too, and it is .308.

The good news is if you handload you can choose from a larger variety of projectiles. The bad news is that if you're firing 54r surplus .312 rounds through it you're getting about 15k psi more chamber pressure than you should.

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by savagebrother

The only SVD I ever got to fire was in 1979 and it was familiarization and we had some 7n1
Soviet stuff to shoot. We were shooting 2 to 3.5 MOA with this particular rifle and you had to keep it as close to the receiver as possible on the front rest bag. It was a lot lighter than it looked.

Another proof

[ncreptile]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Another proof

It's called an opinion and I'm surprised you're still showing your face in this thread. Another member called you.. show your hand or pay up and out of the game.

[voron]

Originally Posted by Towerofpower93

Very true, a fast miss is never better than a slow hit.

My 174gr SMK load is an honest 1.5MOA 5 shot load and holds together at distance compared to the 182gr PPU and 180gr S&B Match loads with far fewer fliers.

I've only messed with the 174gr SMK and 200gr Lapua D166 in the SVD and the 174s in the Tiger/SVDS.

Didn't think the slower Tiger twist rate probably wouldn't do any favors to the D166 so I never tried them in it. At .60 each I didn't feel like burning through a 45rd OCW ladder to discover they won't group, haha.

1.5 MOA is very good. Especially if you can consistently get verifiable results.

[voron]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Another proof

got it. someone on them interwebz told me so.

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by FullAssault

i didn’t ask for diversions & backpedaling, I asked for actual proof of your claims. DO you have actual hard proof that military PSLs are better made?

Yes I do. This person tested military and civilian version, here are the differences http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...22&postcount=2

Originally Posted by ncreptile

It's called an opinion and I'm surprised you're still showing your face in this thread. Another member called you.. show your hand or pay up and out of the game.

It is not an opinion it was a military test of SVD rifle. Another member called me out and I provided the proof. Now I am calling you out, where is your proof?

[ncreptile]

Originally Posted by hakentt

It is not an opinion it was a military test of SVD rifle. Another member called me out and I provided the proof. Now I am calling you out, where is your proof?

Lets see.. I've owned over 10 PSL rifles over the past decade, only one Dragunov. I still have the dragunov.

Secondly, there is little point in trying to educate someone that is incapable of admitting they are wrong. And why would I want to bother? The only reason I care what you think is because you sadly spread your misinformation to possible newbies who may take it as legitimate information.

[FullAssault]

Originally Posted by hakentt

Yes I do. This person tested military and civilian version, here are the differences http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpo...22&postcount=2



It is not an opinion it was a military test of SVD rifle. Another member called me out and I provided the proof. Now I am calling you out, where is your proof?

Um.. yeah that would be more “I heard this on the internet stuff” not only that you must have missed this part of your “hard proof” quoted directly from your link “Is that proof positive? No!” In fact pretty much everything he said was the PSLs he saw looked better on the outside but he hasn’t really compared them side by side. you also conveniently forgot to post the rest of the thread where someone posted a cut away of a off center military PSL barrel that has probably the most piss poor bbl & bore I’ve ever seen. This to me is hard proof that military PSLs have some jacked up QC at best.
good thing my civilian PSL didn’t have the same high standards as that military counterpart.
I decided to email Cugir myself to answer this question. Guess we’ll see what they have to say (mailtoffice@romarm.ro)

[hakentt]

Originally Posted by ncreptile

Lets see.. I've owned over 10 PSL rifles over the past decade, only one Dragunov. I still have the dragunov.

Secondly, there is little point in trying to educate someone that is incapable of admitting they are wrong. And why would I want to bother? The only reason I care what you think is because you sadly spread your misinformation to possible newbies who may take it as legitimate information.

Where am I wrong, please explain? Reason why you still have SVD is do to rarity. If there were only 400 high quality PSLs imported in the USA then I am sure you would be keeping that PSL the same way Mitchell import M76 is collector rifle and ORF M76 is not.

[ncreptile]

I could say water is wet and your response would be "please explain". I do not know how to debate such stupidity..
Air is required to survive "please explain".

Again, what you think does not matter and your value to me is so low I see no point in debating with you. You're not here to learn, you're here to spew your viewpoints(which are wrong) because deep down having a different opinion than the majority makes you feel all special.

Your threads whining about all the gun stores that screwed you over(AKA went above and beyond to make you happy which if that's anything like debating with you is impossible) was much more entertaining.