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Old 02-06-2008, 03:22 PM   #106
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The only thing you can't ignore is the actual rusting.

After you boil the rust you can let it sit. It would be better to do the carding after the boil and then you can let that sit indefinitely.

It won't start rusting again until you reapply the rust solution and expose it to moisture. Normal precautions against natural rust need to be minded like you would for any firearm but the parts can sit unoiled for several days to a week under normal dry conditions. This depends on your locale. Where I live dry unprotected steel can sit for months without rust. In a more humid climate you have to compensate for that humidity somehow.

This method is very much workable to any schedule.

Just never let the actual active rust stage go unattended.
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Old 02-06-2008, 03:57 PM   #107
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Ditto on what Valmet_M76 has posted.

If you leave the acid or brine solution on too long then the rust layer will be too thick and uneven and the metal will start to pit.

So say one is going out of town for a few days on business? One would need to take the parts out of the rust cabinet and clean off the acid or brine solution before departure and put them in a dry place to "hold".

When on returns on may find a small bit of after rust. That is not a problem. Boil again and then card and begin the next rust cycle.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:43 PM   #108
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One minor detail that may or may not matter- I remember you said you used brake cleaner spray because you got it dirt cheap somehow, for all your cleaning inbetween the various stages. But you never said if you used the chlorinated or the non-chlorinated version of brake cleaner, or what brand. Does it make any difference?
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Old 02-06-2008, 08:02 PM   #109
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I boil the parts in distilled water with TSP for degreasing. It works perfectly, and it leaves very little residue. I recommend against acetone - it leaves a white crud over everything. Brake cleaner might make a good alternative, but the great thing about boiling it is that boiling gets everything out - and I mean everything - even stuff you can't see, because it's inside other sub-assemblies.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:53 PM   #110
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I use Berrymans brake cleaner.

All right. I figured I would save myself a lot of time on my Hungarian kit because the thing is like new and already FACTORY blued.

So I thought. Today I gave my rust blued parts a final cleaning and degreasing getting it ready for the sealcoat application. So I did the same thing to the like new Hungarian parts.

After comparing my rust blued parts to the factory blued, degreased parts.......uh-uh, not so fast.

I want you to remember that the Hungarian parts all had a great looking dark finish before I degreased them. Here are a series of pictures. Rust blued parts next to like new Hungarian parts. In every case the DARK parts are the rust blued parts. The picture of the FOLDER is the as is not degreased Hungarian folder next to the rust blued top cover so you can see what the Hungarian parts look like oiled up. Note that at this point the rust blued parts are bone dry and oil free. Beautiful huh?








Now the next two pictures are of the rust blued parts getting their sealcoat. This is a mix of oil paint and artist grade linseed oil painted on the parts and let sit for a couple of hours. This gets wiped off for the most part before baking.




When I get to the wipe it off part I'll take a picture of that and then after-bake pictures.

I was surprized by the low grade factory finish on what appears to be an unfired Hungarian rifle. Commies take shortcuts. One thing is for sure, it ain't paint over park.

This is the sealcoat ready to bake stage. After you have let the oil paint/linseed oil set on the steel for at least two hours you go after it with paper towels. What you want to do is wipe off ALL of the shine. You can't wipe off all the tinted oil if you have properly prepared your steel and correctly rust blued it. Remove all the shine with paper towels.

These are the parts you see all slimey and swimming with oil in the previous pictures, now they are wiped.






Currently these parts are baking at 350 for one hour. When done they will again be bone dry looking. That's when you do the mineral oil low temp coat and bake to finish the job.

Pics of that tomorrow.

Alright. Here are the parts after the sealcoat has been baked on and after the mineral oil has been applied, baked at 200 for an hour and then wiped off. These parts are ready for barrel pressing and final assembly.




Remember the kind of funky looking Hungarian parts?

Here is a picture of them after the oil paint-linseed oil soak and wipe, currently baking at 325 for an hour.

Note that this is NOT a coating of paint. Areas of the metal that were worn through are still worn through and not covered by paint. This process seals and refreshes the finish, it does not cover it up if done properly.



The Hungarian parts still have to have the mineral oil applied and heated to be completed.

Okay I also forgot to mention that baking the oilpaint-linseed oil finish is a very smelly process. You're going to have a pretty strong PAINT smell for a few hours.

The mineral oil heating is pretty odorless.

Last edited by IanMor; 02-06-2017 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:46 AM   #111
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hey Val,thinking of,no check that,am gonna do the rust blue.question...brownells has two types of the rust blue.did ya use the pilkington classic??? 34? bucks?..I want mine to look like yours..hopefully maybe close..
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:18 AM   #112
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Brownells Classic Rust Blue. like $12.95.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:47 AM   #113
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Default Touch up for Rivets?

Hello,

I assume you rust blued the receiver before riveting in the trunnions. What did you do to touch up the rivets? Did you blue the rivets before assembly?

Thanks,

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Old 02-17-2008, 01:05 PM   #114
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AK builder rivets are already dark finished. The only unfinished rivet heads are the ones that are formed when the long rear rivets are set. Those can be touched up with cold blue if you feel the need.

On the last two rifles I built I assembled and rivetted the receiver and then ran a rust blue rusting cycle on all the parts and then pressed the barrel the next weekend.
That gave the newly formed rivets enough blue to match the finish.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:36 PM   #115
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Here is what I did for my rivet's from a group buy. I counted out the rivits for 3 builds then put a few extra in. Dropped them all in a pan of lacquer thinner. Scooped them out and let them dry on a clean rag. Then I dropped them in a clean, white cotton sock and placed that in a pan. Poured a little bit of Laural Mountain rust brown on the sock and worked the rivits around real good. Pour the rivits back in the pan and let them sit. I used the sock to treat the receiver and the rest of the parts. Put all the treated parts in a baking pan and place in the bathroom. Take a real long steaming shower. I left the parts in the bathroom over-nite with the door shut. The next day I got my stainless steel steam table pan and filled it with distilled water. I also had some water (brine) leftover from another batch I did earlier in the week. Brought it to a boil and put all my parts in for about 15-20 minutes. They are now a nice blue-black. This last batch I did'nt bother to blast the NDS receiver with alum-ox. Trying to go for the BPU look on a '73 MD63. The receiver came out so dark I gotta put it all together and wet sand it to get the look I want.
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:43 PM   #116
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You can rust blue every single part, including your rivets if they are raw. The only parts I didn't rust blue were the firing pin, it's retainer and the extractor retainer.

Everything else gets rusted boiled and carded and turns a deep dark blue black.

Koyotejager, your method works great. Show us some pictures! I'm really interested on how well the Laurel Mtn stuff works.
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:05 PM   #117
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If I have the AK Builder black rivets or want to rust blue the entire gun/parts kits, what method is reccomended to remove the original finish in order for the rust blue to "grab hold" of the metal?
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:50 PM   #118
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Just degrease them and apply the rust blue solution to them along with every other part. They will rust and become part of the process.

On the Hungarian rifle I did I used the original Hungarian parts as is. When I attached the Hungarian finished triggerguard to the rust blued receiver I just applied rust blue solution right over the original Hungarian finish and ran a regular rust cycle. It blended the triggerguard and the rivets just fine. The rust blue solution made the Hungarian blued parts rust just like they were bare steel.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:40 PM   #119
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Thanks. I'm on my first coat on a not so perfect receiver. Was gonna start over with a new flat and jig but I figure I'll get a quick lesson on most aspects if I follow through. I was amazed at how fast the metal blues. I was still coating the bare metal and I could see the blueing already taking place. Valmet, did you put a 2nd coat on after 1 hour like the directions say to? I am finding it difficult to apply the solution to the nooks and crannies around the rails without it running.

I've had difficulty finding 000 steel wool but I have found the local coarse/medium/fine at wally world. Which would suffice for carding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by my-rifle
I boil the parts in distilled water with TSP for degreasing. It works perfectly, and it leaves very little residue. I recommend against acetone - it leaves a white crud over everything. Brake cleaner might make a good alternative, but the great thing about boiling it is that boiling gets everything out - and I mean everything - even stuff you can't see, because it's inside other sub-assemblies.
What is TSP? Do you rinse after boiling? If so, rinse with what?
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:16 PM   #120
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TSP = Tri Sodium Phosphate. You can get it at Lowes, paint thinner aisle I believe. Commonly used to wash your house off before painting. Funny thing is the last box I bought said "Phosphate Free"?????? Is that like "salt free" salt?
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:16 AM   #121
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No I don't rinse. TSP leaves so little residue, and tap water leaves so much residue that I'd rather deal with the TSP than whatever's in tap water. I don't use the phosphate-free stuff. I agree. It's like "color-fast bleach".

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Old 02-20-2008, 12:20 AM   #122
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You want the finest steel wool you can get. Lowes or any paint store should have 0000.

Yes I put the second coat on the first cycle. If you are getting runs you are putting it on too wet. You just barely want it to get wet. Try a small sponge brush and just use a little at a time.
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Old 02-20-2008, 12:47 AM   #123
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Hmmm... OK; if I add a TSP boil to the process, how much TSP per gallon of distilled water should I use? And should I still do the brake cleaner rinse afterwards? Also, should I use the TSP boil after carding between rustings?
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:05 AM   #124
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TSP is a needless complication for rust bluing. my-rifle is talking about home HOTbluing which is something else entirely.

After a good degreasing with either acetone or paint thinner or brake clean you can get way with nothing more than hot soapy water for cleaning.

It is important to pay close attention to retainer pin holes on the barrel and the center support rivet on a NDS receiver. A LOT of oil will come out of those areas and a good soak in a solvent is the best way to get that out.

Boiling water will NOT do it.

Handle the parts with gloves after degreasing. After the carding you can prep for the next application of solution by cleaning in hot soapy water and hot water rinse. Always wear gloves while handling the steel. The oil from your hands is too much oil.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:10 AM   #125
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Actually I'm talking about degreasing. That's degreasing for any purpose for which you want to get rid of grease. The problem with anything other than boiling is that it doesn't get into every place on the gun. Spray-on chemicals and soaking in soap are shortcuts that don't do a thorough job. If you want to do a half-assed job, use a spray-on degreaser. If you want to get rid of all the grease, boil it in TSP. If you want to be REALLY SURE, boil it for a LONG TIME. If you boil your parts in TSP and distilled water, you will get rid of the oil even under the gas block and inside those rivet joints.

If you soak it in hot soapy water your gun will look clean, but it won't be. The oil will seep out from the gas block, the front sight block, the rear sight block, and the rivets. I think any fool knows that if you boil stuff you'll do a better job than just soaking in soap. Your call.

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Old 02-20-2008, 01:16 AM   #126
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My experience is that oil will seep out of pin holes even after a half dozen boilings.

It takes more heat than hot water can make to get oil out of tight spaces.

300 degrees in the over will bring it out.

So will a simple soak in a pan with some solvent at room temperature.

Boiling water is not a sufficient degreaser. Even with a chemical added.

The solvent soak is the easiest, cheapest, safest way for the home bluer. Soak it overnight, dry it off. Warm up the parts in the oven or even in the sun and look closely. When the exterior steel is dry and clean any residual oil in retainer pin holes will show itself within a half hour. If it does, clean it again. If it doesn't, you are good to go.

The Brownells rust blue is very sensitive to oil.

That's why I'm interested in the product Koyotejager is using. The Laurel Mtn solution is a rust blue AND degreaser at the same time. I'd like to know how well tht works for him,

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Old 02-20-2008, 01:40 AM   #127
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The degreasing does not have to LAST any longer than it takes to apply the rust blue solution and the time it takes it to dry.
That would be minutes.

For rust bluing you have to pay attention because oil will reappear between boilings and cardings unless you really get it clean.
It is obvious from your statements that YOUR degreasing method does not work all that well. I suppose it is not important for a hot caustic method of metal finish like you use.

The whole point of this thread is to reveal a superior, easy, inexpensive and SAFE way to finish a rifle for the home builder. Using nothing more than a few dollars worth of materials and nothing more dangeroous or smelly than hot boiling water and an oven.

I've seen rust blue last for a hundred years on firearms. My own rust blue, and the rust blue that everyone is going to do on their own, will probably also last that long.
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Old 02-20-2008, 01:52 AM   #128
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Your statement makes it obvious that you haven't done a finish that you've watched for a year.

What you have NOT seen is rust bluing last for a few hundred years when you didn't degrease it well.

The question is about the best method of degreasing not about the best method of bluing. I'm not going to argue about the best method of bluing because neither you nor I have enough experience to do so. One of us though has plenty of experience in degreasing though. Me. One of us does not. You.
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:07 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VALMET_M76
The rust blue will NOT even form if there is ANY grease or oil.
But you don't know if you don't know the oil is there.

Look your rust blue method seems like a really good idea. Why not compliment it with a really good degreasing idea? Let's do the job right. Why not?
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:30 AM   #130
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The Laural Mountain products works well even with alittle oil weeping out of the center support pin. I did have some mottling on my first receiver from my paw prints on it. The very next application took care of that. I did use lacquer thinner to clean before application. That was it. 2 apps on 1 receiver and it looks good and even around the pin and everywhere else on it.
The 2nd receiver all I did was wipe down with thinner and let dry. I didn't even blast it with alum-ox. Did 1 app. and boil on it. Just 1, and it looks as good if not better than my 1st receiver. Plus it was a hell of alot easier to card. On the down side for this receiver is it is going on a 1973 battlefield pick-up, which means I have to assemble everything and then wet sand the receiver to look like the rest of the kit. Bummer dude. I would have rather done it to my 1st receiver but it is going on a low budget pistol build and is transfered as a pistol receiver. At any rate, the Laural Mountain stuff ain't as touchy as Brownell's apparently is.
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:55 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VALMET_M76
Because boiling water will not degrease an AK. Even three hours of parts in boilng water will not degrease an AK.

Rust will not form on oil.

Without rust, you ain't rust bluing.
Point and match........

My Rifle, any parts not properly degreased will be left uneffected by the rust bluing process, Rust bluing does not reply on depositing compounds onto the metal but rather is a conversion process of the metal itself, if the metal is not properly degreased rust will form on the areas that are degreased but not on the areas effected (protected) by the oil residue how long rust bluing will last is only effected by how much of the metals suface depth you convert, each repeated process creates a thicker protective oxide skin of converted molecules......... Hot tank bluing was invented as a shortcut to rust bluing which used to take up to 6 months to get a proper finish in a salt cabinet today its been reduced to a mater of weeks to get the same extremally durable finish that once required 6 months of rusting and carding then rusting and carding again and again, with patience you can easily duplicate a 20 point Rust bluing finish which if done uniformly (this is where patience comes in you must not card until a complete and consistent oxide coating is achieved for each cycle if you do this the rust blued finish will be about 6 times more durable than a hot tank finish and very resistant to abrasion as well........ I refinished a Parker SXS many years ago while still living in Oregon, it took almost a year while following the directions in a book to the T........ that finish is still immaculate even though I destroyed the ol 16 gauge while an ignorant teenager who thought...... he just hadda have a sawed off SXS....... it was legally registered in 1986 as an AOW but is totally useless other than it looks cool.......... with the buttstock chopped into a pistol grip/knob and its 10" barrels wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the ass! Name one big bad gangster that carried a sawed off 16 gauge!! Anyhow the bluing is still great As far as the newer accelerated rust bluing finishes, Still the same basic process only the rusting has been accelerated so should be just as durable
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:57 AM   #132
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I have degreased parts and baked in the oven to get the oils out.it flat out works.somethin about heat and oils..go figure,yes?
I'm doin the rust blue soon.ordered it.frikin truck blew up today so my buyin days are over for awhile.snivel,cry cry snivel..taps
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:14 AM   #133
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The 1973 is a Romy. Really not alot of finish left on the exposed parts. I think the black color of the blue will blend in nice, and maybe not. DStorm, you just gave me an idea. I have a air powered buffer from when I used to paint semi's........
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Old 02-20-2008, 03:51 PM   #134
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Quote:
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I have degreased parts and baked in the oven to get the oils out.it flat out works.somethin about heat and oils..go figure,yes?
I'm doin the rust blue soon.ordered it.frikin truck blew up today so my buyin days are over for awhile.snivel,cry cry snivel..taps
This is exactly why boiling in TSP is superior to spraying with acetone or brake cleaner. Heat gets oil out. It is the only way to thoroughly and completely get the oil out. The TSP bonds with the oil and removes it after the boiling water exposes it.
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:15 PM   #135
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Default Compressed air drying

Hi all,

The AGI video on Rust bluing talks about using compressed air after the boiling before carding to be sure that all water is off. They say that water spots can mar the rust blued finish.

JJS
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Old 02-20-2008, 10:00 PM   #136
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After you boil the rusted parts for a half hour they are HOT and will dry all by themselves in about 5 minutes after you take them out of the water.

If you are using good water you won't get any spots.

Even if you are using sodium laden mineralised water you won't get any spots.

But good water does a better job of converting the red oxide into black oxide. At least use RO water.

You are going to brush the parts pretty good with a carding brush or with steel wool after the boiled parts dry and then you are going to rust them again. Water spotting simply isn't a problem with rust blue. Maybe with hot blue.

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Old 02-20-2008, 10:20 PM   #137
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Hey Valmet, I just boiled my junk receiver after the 1st rust cycle in distilled water for 30 minutes. Most red oxide turned to black oxide. There are some spots that didn't turn. Should I boil it some more or card the hell out of it? Sorry for the size of the pics, I just got this camera and I have yet to figure it out!


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Old 02-20-2008, 10:48 PM   #138
VALMET_M76
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Just card it and rust it again. You will see some areas that appear not to turn, but they did or they will.

The finish gets better, darker and more even with each cycle.

I usually give out at five, rivet the receiver all up and give it one more and then press the barrel.

Be sure to boil for a full half hour.

Last edited by VALMET_M76; 02-20-2008 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 02-20-2008, 10:49 PM   #139
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Joey- those are blotches from handling. Try this always hold rec. by the center support pin.
Using lacquer thinner wipe rec.
with a clean cotton rag(I use white cotton socks) let dry wipe again using another clean dry rag. Apply rust blue, let dry. I apply another round of rb solution. It won't hurt it if you do. Get complete coverage. Let it rust. I put it in by my shower. It gets real humid in the bathroom. Do not handle it. Let it sit in the bathroom with the door shut all nite. You know the rest.

Oh, get the lacquer thinner rag out of the house. Spontaneous combustion is a beotch, let alone the smell.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:16 PM   #140
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Here is koyotejagers pistol trunion that has been rusted and boiled twice. The shine around the hole is oil weeping after two boilings. KJ is using the Laurel Mtn product that will rust under a light oil film.

Any oil stops the Brownells product from working as it will not go where there is any trace of oil.

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