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Old 05-23-2018, 02:04 AM   #1
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Default silver solder muzzle break

on my saiga 12 the muzzle break moves around after shooting it awhile. not a big deal, just shifts slightly to left or right you know backing off the threads after about 100 rounds. im planning on keeping this gun forever anyhow. ive never done it before but seems rather simple. and straightforward, and i like the muzzle break anyways. its a usa made copy of the gk-01 muzzlebreak.


what do you guys think about me silver soldering it to the barrel?
it would be pretty much permanent like that right?
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:16 AM   #2
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You might try cleaning and Loctite.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:22 AM   #3
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yeah, i thought about that, but the way this thing has a set washer that goes with it to orientate the muzzle break it is just right is a REAL pita, its no problem for me. my granpaps got a bunch of plumbing stuff already. a little propane torch and a bunch of kinds of solder including silver solder.

im just afraid of boogering up the threads every time i jack with it, its on there pretty tight. its a real bitch to get it on there right, and i dont want to strip or chew up the threads more than it may already be. i wish they made the saiga 12 with a front sight on the barrel and a detent like other aks... gosh.

so rather try that route, wouldnt it be better to just go ahead and silver solder it while its on there right? i mean... at 25 yards with just walmart 20$ 100 round bulkpacks of birdshot this thing pepper'd the hell out of the man size target with the factory length barrel standard shotgun size barrel i think 18" and the gk-01 attached. i was....quite impressed to say the least. one shell and i had to have atleast 50 bb size holes on paper or so. very spread out but id imagine i wouldnt want to be that target.

i dont think id need or ever care to try out different chokes with the great results i feel i had like that.... it is a shotgun after all,

that said,

i still need to find somewhere to shoot slugs a little longer of distance. only range that lets me shoot the saiga 12 is a indoor 25 yard range near me.

someday maybe, id like to see what kinda groups i can get at 100 yards with slugs with this setup.

i have thought about getting somekind of optic for it an zeroing it in on the side scope mount setup and getting a 2 rnd mag and using it for deer hunting.

lol hell me and my little brother had a blast shooting it at that range with just birdshot though, at about 10 yards we had turned that target to swiss cheese, about a basket ball size or bigger hole in the target in the torso center mass area, we eventually blew out where the head was also, and eventually just blew the target off the holder when it was absolutely shredded. ill look to see if i can find photos of my last range trip.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:36 AM   #4
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double posting, but its definitely my favorite gun Ive ever owned.

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Old 05-23-2018, 02:37 AM   #5
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You will need more then a little propane torch to generate enough heat.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:38 AM   #6
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Nice pics and Saiga.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedwhole! View Post
Nice pics and Saiga.
thanks, its definitely my favorite gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedwhole! View Post
You will need more then a little propane torch to generate enough heat.

you really think so? hmm. we do have an oxygen acetylene cutting torch setup.

im sure we have something that can get it hot enough. now im kinda worried about potential heat damage to the barrel though.
the heat treating or warping or whatever.

do you really need to get silver solder that hot compared to normal solder? damn.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:40 AM   #8
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If you use the proper strength thread locker it will not move unless you desire.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:42 AM   #9
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You need both pieces of steel warm enough for the solder to flow between them. A turbo torch is just right. Oxy acetylene is overkill but a small propane torch is not quite enough.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
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If you use the proper strength thread locker it will not move unless you desire.

thanks, ill keep it in mind. ill look more into silver soldering. it was something i was wanting to do now that i think about it a little bit more. i do want to make it permanently attached.

but if its to much trouble, i may just go with the thread locker i think i got some around here somewhere. it has been along time since we used that cutting torch setup so i don't know if its got alot of gas in the bottles or if its even good to operate. but i am pretty skilled with one as i used one daily for a few years at a job as a welder.

now that i think about it, i wonder if TIG welding it would be another option or route i could take. i have a tig welder at my disposal as well. but i don't know about that. i wouldn't feel comfortable tacking a little filler to the barrel... i dont know. that gives me anxiety just thinking about it. lol. if it had a front sight base that would be a different story. maybe almost not even need a bit of filler rod. i could just melt the bushing to the muzzle break and then very carefully melt the bushing end to the barrel, but it seems risky.


Quote:
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You need both pieces of steel warm enough for the solder to flow between them. A turbo torch is just right. Oxy acetylene is overkill but a small propane torch is not quite enough.

ohh okay alright then. im sure we have something around that would work then. ill have to talk to him about it sometime. i got to tig weld some on the safety lever anyways. i cut out a notch for the bolt so the safety lever could be used as a BHO device since i didn't put the factory BHO back in the saiga and i was wanting to add a tab of some kind to be able to manipulate the safety lever without removing your hands from the PG.

ill definitely not tig weld the muzzle break on though, but i will be sure to tig weld an extension to that safety lever while im over visiting.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:50 AM   #11
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Do get more opinions on here.. It is just my experience. If you put the "red" thread locker on there it will not move without a bunch of persuasion.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:15 AM   #12
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I don't think loctite will help, with that heavy muzzle device, and less then perfect threads. I would certainly try it though before silver soldering it on. You could get it attached with MAP gas, and yes it needs to be pretty hot, unlike plumbing solder.
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Old 05-23-2018, 06:24 AM   #13
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If SS it on, would be a good time for a bbl chop!
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avtomatkalashnikov View Post
thanks, ill keep it in mind. ill look more into silver soldering. it was something i was wanting to do now that i think about it a little bit more. i do want to make it permanently attached.
The ATF accepted silver bearing solder for permanently attached (lengthening a barrel to over the legal limit) muzzle devices has a 1100º+ melting point. For your application that's overkill. The silver content is a determining factor in melting point so lower silver content melts at a lower temperature. The silver bearing plumbing solder I have has a much lower melting point of around 500º and I'm sure it would work for you.
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:55 AM   #15
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If you don't need it "permanently attached" for legality ( length reasons ), you can use any attachment method you like . . .

Loctite
Superglue
Silver solder
Spot welds
JB Weld
Divot
etc
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:05 AM   #16
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I can.thread and install 3 setscrews at 60°
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:38 AM   #17
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Chop, thread ,and perm pin.
You'll be glad you did and just get it over with
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:05 AM   #18
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Personally, I would just use a high-temperature thread locker such as Loctite 2620. You should be able to order a small tube/bottle without breaking the bank.


The important thing to making Loctite successful is the preparation with their $$$ proprietary cleaner/primer. One can of course use "brake cleaner" (watch out for painted surfaces!) but it only degreases and does not prepare the surfaces for bonding.


If you ever change your mind, a mere propane torch will allow easy destruction of the Loctite and removal of the brake.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:25 AM   #19
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^^^^ +1., this..., hi-temp thread lock.
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Old 05-23-2018, 09:59 AM   #20
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probably overkill, but eventually next time i go see my grandpa ill silver solder it, for now im gonna dig around and look for a bottle of loctite i had. while its not high temp stuff, i do specifically remember it being really high strength- like the strongest pounds per square inch stuff they had on the shelf at wally world. ill get back to you guys and post whatever kind it was i used if i end up finding it.

i used it actually for a different saiga conversion i did along time ago for the screws in the quad rail handguard. like i said, probably overkill, but im going to go ahead and loctite it and then probably also eventually silver solder it.

i dont really have the tools to thread the barrel again and it seems like a PITA to go through all that trouble. i dont really know what "pinning" the barrel is, if someone wants to explain id appreciate it.

maybe ill consider chopping it and rethreading it someday if i dont silver solder it first if someone would loan me the thread tap or something but i doubt it. seems like alot of trouble to go through just to bring the barrel length down using the muzzle break as an extension. would be a really bad thing if i somehow screwed that up. you know what they say, measure twice cut once.

but-

yeah from what i understand i could fully strip down the gun, completely disassembled right? chop the barrel a little bit, rethread it , and put the muzzle break back on and silver solder the heck out of it and bring it back to 18" and the atf would be cool with that.

i dont think id want to go through all that trouble anyways really, cause IMO the extra length probably adds + that much more accuracy.
i dont know. what do you guys think.

anyhow, good discussion. ive never silver solder'd anything before so it should be educational experience for myself. maybe in the future i will chop, rethread and perm* attach a muzzle break on a different gun.

(*edit - this is the stuff i found i got on hand, im gonna go ahead and take off the muzzlebreak and use this on it for the time being. until i can get around to silver soldering it aswell, http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_l...r-Blue-242.htm)
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
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i dont really know what "pinning" the barrel is, if someone wants to explain id appreciate it.
Pinning refers to drilling a hole through one part and partially through the other and inserting a pin to prevent removal. You can either drill straight toward the center of the bore or on a tangent so you'd only catch the outside of the barrel like how any of the sight blocks or gas block are pinned. With something as thin as a shotgun barrel there isn't a lot of meat for a straight in hole without drilling through into the bore and not much more for the other. Blind pinning means the hole isn't through drilled to prevent easy removal of the pin. Sometimes (mostly for the ATF) a spot of weld is placed over the exposed end of the pin making removal even more difficult.

And Locktite red 271 is stronger than the blue you referenced.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:51 PM   #22
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I reread about your threads, and you said they were tight, so definitely get some high heat loctite. If the threads were sloppy, forget about it....
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:57 PM   #23
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your gonna need a acetylene torch to silver solder. I had my boss do the brake on this build and thats what he used

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Old 05-23-2018, 08:26 PM   #24
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The high temp thread locker is fine for securing a muzzle device.
Though you can get low temp 420 degree silver solder paste.
But really not necessary.
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:37 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rforbus View Post
Personally, I would just use a high-temperature thread locker such as Loctite 2620. You should be able to order a small tube/bottle without breaking the bank.


The important thing to making Loctite successful is the preparation with their $$$ proprietary cleaner/primer. One can of course use "brake cleaner" (watch out for painted surfaces!) but it only degreases and does not prepare the surfaces for bonding.


If you ever change your mind, a mere propane torch will allow easy destruction of the Loctite and removal of the brake.
^^^^Exactly, plus the collar on that brake is thick and aluminum making it a really good heat sink. Not sure if there are any short comings of using silver solder to join dissimilar metals?
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:31 PM   #26
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He'll no I would not silver solder it.

There is no need. It will decrease the value of the weapon considerably , your going to fuck up the finish, likely the barrel as well.

It's likely coming loose because you that brake is massive and is on a thin barrel to its getting shaked to hell .

I'd try some high temp loctight. I sure the hell would not use a high temp solder.
Get a good steel lock/ jam nut and it won't likely come loose either.

What's that brake weigh 4 pounds??????
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Old 05-24-2018, 05:42 AM   #27
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the 1200 degree silver solder is 45%+/- silver. low alloy silver solder for plumbing is easily done with a propane torch. id use a low melt solder. it melts in the range of 400-650 depending on the silver alloy content. yes normal lowmelt solder will hold a muzzle brake on. its just not acceptable for the atf "permanent" definition for making legal length barrels.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:59 PM   #28
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just pin it, that way it's removable
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:13 PM   #29
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I did one with Gorilla gel super-glue recently. Just a drop. Seems to hold fine, but I haven't gotten the barrel hot enough to test. Then I sold the gun.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:55 PM   #30
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Why not a good steel jam nut??
If it's torqued properly it won't come loose.

Silver solder might break anyway.
That's a big hunk of ugly on that shot gun.
I'd not be surprised if even a silver solder fix failed.

Funny guys manage to mount much bigger and heavier brakes doing a lot more on 50 bmg rifles e I th just a jam nut and proper torque.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:44 PM   #31
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Loctite has an application sheet that would give you the info you need. They make gap filling high strength formulas and IMO is the modern day engineering solution to your problem. Loctite 263 is a high strength gap filling formula you can use if your threads are getting buggered up and you need position rather than torque. The primer is mostly acetone for cleaning and fast flash off time. There is a small amount of acid in the primer but if you wanted to wipe the thread with Muriatic acid first before cleaning in acetone it would etch or lightly passivate the area. It would take quite a bit to loosen and there would be no harm done to the weapon.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:20 PM   #32
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The Loctite 2620 will take the heat if you have enough clearance to get it in there. I have some and it is what I would call a paste and not a liquid. I have some of the Loctite "primer" too and paid way too much damn money for what acts and smells like green acetone.

There is also Rocksett which surpasses the heat 2620 will take.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/16...SABEgIPGPD_BwE

Another option if there is enough meat on the brake (looks like there is) you can have it drilled/tapped for a set screw. You can use a brass tipped set screw that will not mess up the threads or just use a standard set screw if you don't care.

I agree an LP torch will not be the best, just heat soak the barrel. Not a hot enough flame with good enough heat concentration without force feeding it oxygen.

If it is your favorite rifle you might as well just do it right.
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Old 05-26-2018, 05:52 PM   #33
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I'd be careful pushing a set screw into a shotgun barrel .
Not as thick as a rifle . Likely bend it.
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