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Old 08-12-2017, 10:34 PM   #1
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Default Why is my carrier coming off the rail?

Rifle is in great shape. But once the bolt gets about to the hammer the right side can come up out of the rail. If I pull down on the charging handle as I rack it everything is fine. If I pull it as straight back as I can it happens sometimes, so I'm pretty sure this will bind on the rail while shooting, although I haven't shot it yet. If I pull up even slightly on the handle it will bind as pictured.
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Last edited by Maadi; 08-12-2017 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Adding picture as attachment
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:39 PM   #2
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Edit-geesh, no photos allowed for noobs?
AK Files > Suggestions & Technical Support > [Sticky] Posting pictures on this site

The forum owner isn't paying for photo hosting, which is why the allotted space for such is so small.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:39 PM   #3
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What kind of AK? Multiple out of spec issues can cause this.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by blackemanuelle View Post
What kind of AK? Multiple out of spec issues can cause this.
It's a SAR1. Very good to excellent condition. Definitely needs some breaking in, but I can see this needs fixed before I shoot it or there will be problems.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:47 PM   #5
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take the bolt carrier out and then take pictures of both receiver and carrier (underside)
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:54 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Metatron View Post
take the bolt carrier out and then take pictures of both receiver and carrier (underside)
Thanks for your help! Here are the pics.
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File Type: jpg IMG_1361.JPG (69.1 KB, 392 views)
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:14 PM   #7
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I put a Norinco BCG in it and I couldn't reproduce the problem. I tried just putting the Norinco bolt in the SAR carrier and that didn't fix it. I can't see any difference in the carriers, so I suspect the Norinco is just a tad wider.

Should I just put the receiver in a vice and squeeze it a tad?

Last edited by Maadi; 08-12-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:20 PM   #8
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In the second pic, it looks as if the left side Top Rail is bent down a bit where the "gap" is shaped for the bolt/ bolt carrier to drop in during assembly.

This could just be me looking at it wrong, but if it is true in real life, then This could cause the carrier to shift slightly Left and jump out of place when it's manipulated.

I had a similar issue with my AMD65 kit build. What I did was take a small Crescent adjustable wrench and slow and carefully bent the lip back up, one small section of lip at a time. Then I used a straight edge to confirm true / equal edge geometry all along its length.

It worked for me.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:26 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by GuzziMike View Post
In the second pic, it looks as if the left side Top Rail is bent down a bit where the "gap" is shaped for the bolt/ bolt carrier to drop in during assembly.

This could just be me looking at it wrong, but if it is true in real life, then This could cause the carrier to jump out of place when it's manipulated.

I had a similar issue with my AMD65 kit build. What I did was take a small Crescent adjustable wrench and slow and carefully bent the lip back up, one small section of lip at a time. Then I used a straight edge to confirm true / equal edge geometry all along its length.

It worked for me.
But it isn't coming out at the back, it's popping out on the right side directly next to the hammer. Look at my first pic again and you'll see the SAR has a cutout on the rail there (I don't know why, it seems dumb).
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:31 PM   #10
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But it isn't coming out at the back, it's popping out on the right side directly next to the hammer. Look at my first pic again and you'll see the SAR has a cutout on the rail there (I don't know why, it seems dumb).
I see what you mean...I mis-spoke. I meant the cutouts by the Hammer, not the ones out back.

I just checked my AMD, and I have a similar cut-out on Both sides ( by the hammer) but the difference is that my cut-outs are only about 50% of what yours shows...



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Old 08-12-2017, 11:36 PM   #11
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oh Lord
- not this Again..

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309694

I vote read through this^

go shoot the rifle and see what is actually up then.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:40 PM   #12
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No, the left rail doesn't lift up there, but if it did then I'm pretty sure that would prevent the problem. The left side has to be able to tilt down a bit for the right side to be able to pop up. Bottom line is hat there is a little too much space there, but everything looks straight and almost new (well, Romanian new that is). I'm seriously considering giving the receiver a squeeze in the vice to take out some slop. Why do any AK's have those cutouts anyways?
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:41 PM   #13
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Make sure your receiver is riveted tight against the rear trunnion. Measure the thickness there, and then compare that to the middle of the receiver. Make sure your center support rivet is tight too.

Pull the recoil spring and FCG out so you can check the carrier play along the rails without influence of the hammer.

Checking this is to ensure your receiver isn't warped, but it sounds like it is.



Quote:
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Why do any AK's have those cutouts anyways?
It's for the sloppy bolt.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lane_H View Post
oh Lord
- not this Again..

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309694

I vote read through this^

go shoot the rifle and see what is actually up then.
Thanks, but that's not my problem. Look at my first picture to see that it is halfway back, not near the rear trunnion, but by the hammer/trigger.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:51 PM   #15
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Rivets look superb, receiver looks fabulous. I just remembered that the seller told me how clever he was for shaving the hump off the back of the hammer to make it rack smoother. At first I thought that couldn't be the problem because it should help keep it from pushing up and out. However, I'm wondering if it was pushing up more on the bolt as it crosses over then the left side wouldn't have enough slop to allow the BCG to tilt to the left. Gonna slap another hammer in there...
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GuzziMike View Post
...



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How did you post the picture?

OMG - the PhotoSUCK(it) thing has ruined the Internet; everywhere you surf you see that damn "Speedometer of Crap" image. It rendered probably millions of posts useless without their images.

T-U-R-D-S.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:09 AM   #17
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The forward cuts are for the bolt lugs to drop in.
The rear cuts are for the carrier.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:56 AM   #18
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OMG that hammer spring was soooooo tight. My hands are aching. Anyways, I did get a different hammer in and it didn't help. No one has had this problem before?

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Old 08-13-2017, 04:27 AM   #19
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No one had this problem?


It comes up weekly
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floivanus View Post
No one had this problem?


It comes up weekly
Exactly

that's why I posted the link to the thread from a last week/2 weeks ago..

hey OP, how about about the Measurement between your top rails"??

> ALSO in the other thread- IF you had taken the time to read it.

& yes I looked at your pic in the OP

- the rails are to wide (To Far Apart bewteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen each top rail inside measurement), use calipers and it should be be around 0.97'' (+/- 0.01'')
- just a Fuzz wider than the little cutout on the rear of the carrier that rides on the top rail..
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:50 AM   #21
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try a plus power recoil spring. otherwise leave the buffers out and fix it right.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:08 AM   #22
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From looking at your photo, the upper rail on the left side, the cut out to drop the bcg looks really rounded off. Were you sanding or filing this area attempting to fix the problem? can you take a clearer picture of that cutout area with a small piece of paper the rail for contrast? I'm thinking this is your problem, it doesnt look symmetrical to the cut out on the opposing side.

Here is what i see. Red looking somewhat normal, green looking longish and rounded off. Does your bolt carrier have the sloped area as mentioned in the link Lane H posted or does it look my squared off?



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Old 08-13-2017, 12:43 PM   #23
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I'll have to check if the left side is longer but it's coming out on the right, so I don't see how the left cutout could be the problem. The right side cutout is deeper than my other gun thought, but I'm glad you think it looks normal.

I believe my carriers are both slanted. The Norinco carrier won't pop out.

Last edited by Maadi; 08-14-2017 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:52 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lane_H View Post
Exactly

that's why I posted the link to the thread from a last week/2 weeks ago..

hey OP, how about about the Measurement between your top rails"??

> ALSO in the other thread- IF you had taken the time to read it.

& yes I looked at your pic in the OP

- the rails are to wide (To Far Apart bewteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen each top rail inside measurement), use calipers and it should be be around 0.97'' (+/- 0.01'')
- just a Fuzz wider than the little cutout on the rear of the carrier that rides on the top rail..
I read the first two pages of that link and the whole thing is about the carrier jumping at the rear cutouts and installing buffers to prevent it. I found dozens of threads just like that already but that's not what is happening here. Was that the wrong link? I will measure my rail spacing...
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maadi View Post
Rifle is in great shape. But once the bolt gets about to the hammer the right side can come up out of the rail. If I pull down on the charging handle as I rack it everything is fine. If I pull it as straight back as I can it happens sometimes, so I'm pretty sure this will bind on the rail while shooting, although I haven't shot it yet. If I pull up even slightly on the handle it will bind as pictured.
When charging a round in a AK, it is NOT proper practice to pull up on the charging handle when pulling it back. Always pull the charging handle back with slight downward pressure on it and completely release it allowing it to slam forward. The recoil spring keeps the bolt carrier into the top rails when the action is cycled under firing conditions. Take it to the range, load a magazine up and see if the firearm functions as designed.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Yes, the red and green lines look fairly accurate. I'll have to check if the left side is longer but it's coming out on the right, so I don't see how the left cutout could be the problem. The right side cutout is deeper than my other gun thought, but I'm glad you think it looks normal.

I believe my carriers are both slanted. The Norinco carrier won't pop out.
I don't think it looks normal. They should look the same not different. If they are different I'm sure thats the problem. The excessive room on the left causes the carrier to lift up just enough to hang up on the right side.

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Old 08-13-2017, 08:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lane_H View Post
Exactly

that's why I posted the link to the thread from a last week/2 weeks ago..

hey OP, how about about the Measurement between your top rails"??

> ALSO in the other thread- IF you had taken the time to read it.

& yes I looked at your pic in the OP

- the rails are to wide (To Far Apart bewteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeen each top rail inside measurement), use calipers and it should be be around 0.97'' (+/- 0.01'')
- just a Fuzz wider than the little cutout on the rear of the carrier that rides on the top rail..
Calipers read:
1.02 at the front near the chamber
.993 at center rivet
1.07 at the lug cutout (where it is escaping)
.994 at th back before the rear cutout

The excellent (thank you) image above with the green and red lines show the green line going further forward than the red. It actually starts further back than that, even further back than the red. Don't see a problem with the left rail anyways.

Do you think it is the just the carrier? Will any carrier work? I found a Romanian rebuilt carrier for $79 that has the serials rubbed off during refinishing, which sounds more appealing than mismatched serials...
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Metatron View Post
I don't think it looks normal. They should look the same not different. If they are different I'm sure thats the problem. The excessive room on the left causes the carrier to lift up just enough to hang up on the right side.
The left cutout isn't that long. It matche the right side pretty much. I think it looks a tiny bit shorter just because it isn't cut as deep, since the lug cutout is offset to the right (normal).

The rail shape looks about same as my other AK in all areas, but the lug cutouts are definitely a little deeper. My Maadi receiver is 1.02 at that cutout, but the SAR is 1.07.

Last edited by Maadi; 08-13-2017 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:28 PM   #29
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like was stated in post #22
the shape of the top rail on the left side seems like someone got file happy and took off to much material.
however-
you should be able to squeeze the rails together some to compensate for the width being to wide.
assuming the reciever is heat treated it will likely have a ''spring'' effect of going back to where it currently is..

maybe you can use some pieces of metal stock on each side just enough to catch the area of the top rail from front to back & on both sides-

squeeze it gently in a press or vise and see if you can get the gap to narrow. in order to make it not spring back squeezing a bit more than you need may be required
or
~possibly you can apply heat of a torch to the metal of the reciever in order it to allow some elasticity while you have it squeezed.
*Not cherry red - just apply some heat to the metal & when you notice the heat transfer on the surface then back off, doing so while clamped at the right width and then let it cool before releasing the clamp.*

**one Quick check to see if this would even help would be use a large C-clamp or bar clamp
(from the bottom side of the receiever)
to temporarily squeeze it to the 0.97'' measurement and see if the carrier rides through the same spot more smoothly
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:23 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lane_H View Post
like was stated in post #22
the shape of the top rail on the left side seems like someone got file happy and took off to much material.
however-
you should be able to squeeze the rails together some to compensate for the width being to wide.
assuming the reciever is heat treated it will likely have a ''spring'' effect of going back to where it currently is..

maybe you can use some pieces of metal stock on each side just enough to catch the area of the top rail from front to back & on both sides-

squeeze it gently in a press or vise and see if you can get the gap to narrow. in order to make it not spring back squeezing a bit more than you need may be required
or
~possibly you can apply heat of a torch to the metal of the reciever in order it to allow some elasticity while you have it squeezed.
*Not cherry red - just apply some heat to the metal & when you notice the heat transfer on the surface then back off, doing so while clamped at the right width and then let it cool before releasing the clamp.*

**one Quick check to see if this would even help would be use a large C-clamp or bar clamp
(from the bottom side of the receiever)
to temporarily squeeze it to the 0.97'' measurement and see if the carrier rides through the same spot more smoothly
That's a very clear description, so thanks, that's reassuring. I see no reason not to try that. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:50 PM   #31
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OP, I live close and can take that pesky thing off your hands.
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Old 08-13-2017, 10:54 PM   #32
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also you could try to press on the center support to squeeze the head in slightly- that may serve as a clamp to pull the rails inward

just don't over do it and squish it or pop the spots welds on the lower rails
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Old 08-14-2017, 01:19 AM   #33
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OP, I live close and can take that pesky thing off your hands.
I'm close by too, this joker isn't trying to help you. I'll make the same offer, but with a friendly handshake.

A milled AK recoil assembly could fix it without all the c clamps and heat
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:36 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Floivanus View Post
I'm close by too, this joker isn't trying to help you. I'll make the same offer, but with a friendly handshake.

A milled AK recoil assembly could fix it without all the c clamps and heat
What do you mean a milled recoil assembly?

What would really want to buy the gun in its current state? It sounds like you guys think this problem is no big deal when you say stuff like that. I hope that is what you are inferring! I was worried the gun might be a lemon and that I got ripped off. As an AR guy I have found AK's to be disconcerting thus far to say the least. I guess I'm just not very trusting of Russian guns yet, but oddly enough I got fixated on collecting AK's recently LOL.

Last edited by Maadi; 08-14-2017 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 08-14-2017, 03:00 AM   #35
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check it with a no-go and if it passes fuckin shoot it lol
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