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Old 03-27-2018, 11:42 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by BoatGuyFL View Post
Urban....rural.... lol. yer fucked either way, its just a matter of how long it will take...

Me? I choose neither. Access to transportation with a 4000 gallon fuel capacity, 500 gallon fresh water tank with reverse osmosis system to convert sea water to fresh water, and tons of storage space. Ya'll have fun on land. I'll be waaaay away from the masses. Maybe come back in 6-8 months after everyone has devoured each other and their resources.
Be wary of the roving packs of gangster pirates that are sure to be patrolling the local waterways. No doubt theyíll know just where you are, despite not having any significant skill in navigation or survival themselves. Also, they are sure to be well provisioned after raiding the mystical ďfood centersĒ (where twinkies breed with ho-hos to create litters of new snack cakes). This has been one of the most entertaining threads Iíve ever read, for all the wrong reasons.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:44 AM   #142
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Boatguy's idea is a sound one IMO.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:46 PM   #143
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Boatguy's idea is a sound one IMO.
Agreed. If I lived near the coast, Iíd certainly account for that option. I hope I didnít give the impression that the smarminess was criticism of him or his plan. Just for general purpose information... Argentina is roughly four times the size of Texas. A big state, no doubt. But that puts the Continental US at roughly four times the size of Argentina, with most of the population being concentrated in metropolitan areas. That idea that a group of marauders will be successfully trekking through these remote areas (where maps arenít even much help to those who know how to read them) with pinpoint accuracy to lay siege or assault my homestead is possible. To assume it likely or even plausible is outright silly. Iím absolutely safer here than in a major city. Folks would have zero reason to be out here (just from a logistics standpoint), there is nothing of note for miles. Accidentally stumbling across my property is highly unlikely. There is no through traffic. If a group of 100 city rats set out for my homestead for some specific purpose, the bulk of them die before they ever make it. How are they feeding and watering this 100 man army? Do they posses the navigational and survival ability to march that army through the wilds? To what end? A perilous journey when there are plenty of sheep for wolves to prey on in less isolated areas.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:43 PM   #144
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A very interesting aspect of the drug war and vice more generally as it relates to preppers is that gang bangers already are living in SHTF to some extent.

They have homies that are armed to the teeth w guns that have the fun switches, already are skilled at avoiding contact w cops and other armed enemies, AND many of them operate in regional networks with fairly disciplined command and control structures.

Need transport or anything else? These guys know how to get it. No matter how scarce or well guarded. That is their current world.

Need a contact in the next metro area or even rural areas? They have them. They have to as part of regional and even national narcotics and human trafficking distribution systems.

They also have enviable "intel" networks with people they have either bribed or blackmailed or even rural wannabes looking to climb out of their own small town meth induced misery.

These bad hombres are only kept in check by current LEO operations, each other, and strongmen at the top who enter into regional peace agreements. Take out the LEOs and add the chaos at the top (and all levels) of a SHTF event and ALL bets are off.

I have seen major changes in the rural area where I grew up and it seems like it is ALL frickin drug related. And they always seem to be from out of state from much larger metro areas either on a side venture or as part of an organized push from certain cities several hundred miles away. But there is always, and I mean ALWAYS, a local contact. Often a driver.

If gangs believe there is stuff worth getting in rural areas, they will be coming for it without a doubt. It only takes one methhead passing through to squeal about the kind charity shown by the X family or a church giving out food to needy locals.

Of course if transport and communications are rendered impossible this is a less of risk. But it seems like every area has its own share of homies in section 8 housing, even some really small areas.

Bottom line is that depending on the event, rural should at least buy you some extra
time to get organized depending upon the numbers and disposition of your own home grown homies, boozers, and meth heads et al.

I think laying low and essentially hiding out could work, but it would be a lot safer and mor effective if you had 24/7 patrols of your property and a much wider perimeter. Even drones could help quite a lot if there is a major bottleneck.

This post is getting wayyyyyy long, but one tactic I have thought through in my own BOL AO is guarding and rigging key bridges. There are certain points where you would have to drive 60 miles of unpaved road through decidely hostile "deliverance country" to get around blown bridges. of course that could cut both ways, but if you were otherwise dealing with an unmanageable and unruly refugee flow, it would be a god option to have that would improve your defensive fighting position.

Finally, I also like the idea of a SHTF boat. But what do you do about the potential for big storms? Esp if comms are down or there are no good weather reports coming in?
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Old 04-08-2018, 01:35 PM   #145
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It might be time to take heed to some of the post here and get some plans together.
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:32 PM   #146
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It might be time to take heed to some of the post here and get some plans together.
Itís never too early for people to learn:

Keep the gas tank full, mags topped off, and pantry stocked up

Keep your enemyís close (metaphorically, you wanna know what theyíre thinking) but geographically as far away as possible

America first (you and yours), fuck everyone else until your America is taken care of and safe then help others if you are inclined to do so
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Old 04-08-2018, 09:53 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Rev06 View Post
A very interesting aspect of the drug war and vice more generally as it relates to preppers is that gang bangers already are living in SHTF to some extent.

They have homies that are armed to the teeth w guns that have the fun switches, already are skilled at avoiding contact w cops and other armed enemies, AND many of them operate in regional networks with fairly disciplined command and control structures.

Need transport or anything else? These guys know how to get it. No matter how scarce or well guarded. That is their current world.

Need a contact in the next metro area or even rural areas? They have them. They have to as part of regional and even national narcotics and human trafficking distribution systems.

They also have enviable "intel" networks with people they have either bribed or blackmailed or even rural wannabes looking to climb out of their own small town meth induced misery.

These bad hombres are only kept in check by current LEO operations, each other, and strongmen at the top who enter into regional peace agreements. Take out the LEOs and add the chaos at the top (and all levels) of a SHTF event and ALL bets are off.

I have seen major changes in the rural area where I grew up and it seems like it is ALL frickin drug related. And they always seem to be from out of state from much larger metro areas either on a side venture or as part of an organized push from certain cities several hundred miles away. But there is always, and I mean ALWAYS, a local contact. Often a driver.

If gangs believe there is stuff worth getting in rural areas, they will be coming for it without a doubt. It only takes one methhead passing through to squeal about the kind charity shown by the X family or a church giving out food to needy locals.

Of course if transport and communications are rendered impossible this is a less of risk. But it seems like every area has its own share of homies in section 8 housing, even some really small areas.

Bottom line is that depending on the event, rural should at least buy you some extra
time to get organized depending upon the numbers and disposition of your own home grown homies, boozers, and meth heads et al.

I think laying low and essentially hiding out could work, but it would be a lot safer and mor effective if you had 24/7 patrols of your property and a much wider perimeter. Even drones could help quite a lot if there is a major bottleneck.

This post is getting wayyyyyy long, but one tactic I have thought through in my own BOL AO is guarding and rigging key bridges. There are certain points where you would have to drive 60 miles of unpaved road through decidely hostile "deliverance country" to get around blown bridges. of course that could cut both ways, but if you were otherwise dealing with an unmanageable and unruly refugee flow, it would be a god option to have that would improve your defensive fighting position.

Finally, I also like the idea of a SHTF boat. But what do you do about the potential for big storms? Esp if comms are down or there are no good weather reports coming in?
Thinking about a SHTF boat. The watch the fist few episodes of "Fear the Walking Dead". The escaped on a Yacht, it didn't work out as you might think. It left a lot of "food for thought" ideas.....
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Old 04-08-2018, 11:30 PM   #148
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Funny I actually am watching the boat episodes of Fear of the WR right now. They just left the preppers on the coast and adopted their kid. We'll see what happens next.

I think the vulnerabilities of being in a rural area are being demonstrated all too well right now in South Africa. And I bet a lot of all those dead Boer farmers knew how to use guns and owned them and maybe even were expecting an attack.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:10 PM   #149
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Middle of nowhere and lots of open space ...

Wyoming and Idaho



Well stocked and lots of fish and game.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:13 PM   #150
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When that gets rare, there will always be occasional Long Pork trying to move into the area. :-)
Yuummmmmm, long pork.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:42 PM   #151
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They will be no safe haven for the unprepared...when shtf the first thing all the leftist will do is pack a bag and run to rural areas but thatís what everyone else will be doing. So where ever you find yourself, being prepared is the only way of being safe.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:19 PM   #152
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when shtf the first thing all the leftist will do is pack a bag and run to rural areas
Don't know why everyone always wants to bug out to the country.

Rural areas don't want them and won't tolerate them. They'd be a lot better off staying wherever they are and taking their chances in a place they are familiar with.

Anyone that thinks that country folk are stupid push overs and will just let you come in and eat their food at take their property because the city people feel "entitled" to it are all going to be in for a rude awakening.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:22 PM   #153
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all going to be in for a rude awakening.
likely so
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:33 PM   #154
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likely so
No doubt.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:27 PM   #155
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Many preppers or old school survivalists think of the likely flood of urban refugees as the "Golden Horde" and plan for it accordingly.

Jim Rawles in particular addresss it fairly well and it underlies most of his recommendations like being West of the Rockies.

Unless Yellowstone goes I guess.
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Old 04-29-2018, 11:10 AM   #156
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IMHO Rural areas that are primarily focused on large scale agriculture will possibly suffer as bad or worse than cities. Most modern big ag is VERY dependent on infrastructure, and many of the people running have forgotten the old ways. Chicken and hog houses require constant ventilation to keep temps in the survivable range. Power out+no fuel=house full of cooked animals. Dairy houses MUST have power to run milking equipment. After a few day SOP is to start shooting cows whose utters burst. With limited fuel for tractors, many carcasses will be left indoors, or out doors on the surface, which will make for festering, plague starting hot spots. Many of these houses are on the verge of starting the next big bird/swine flu or antibiotic resistant bug AS THEY ARE NOW! OH and almost all of these places are dependent on HUGE inputs of grain, many times supplied by the company who contracts the animals.

Just something to consider.

Me? I am rural, but am sure to die. My area is heavy on the lovely Tourism industry, primarily drawing from NOVA, DC and Richmond. All those folks are going to remember the "safe clean country side" and come a-knocking.
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:01 PM   #157
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Warm climate areas with good rainfall. Small town. Plenty of food to grow all year. Plenty of water. No worries about freezing to death. Beach town with some inland watery spots can be quickly irrigated into endless fields of guacamole producing avacados, Let's not forget the endless supply of blues and reds shore-casting. Wait....oh that's right I live here.

Everything else is going to be a very hard life. Sure, they pulled it off in the past...with a life expectancy of about 50. Mountains sound great until your food supply got wrecked and it's -15 degrees outside with 7ft of snow.

Wait....no mountains are great. Stay away from small Floridian beach town with fertile soil. The population is too high already.

Unless you've stacked some cases and like to surf. In that case, yeah we have room.
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:20 PM   #158
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Don't know why everyone always wants to bug out to the country.

Rural areas don't want them and won't tolerate them. They'd be a lot better off staying wherever they are and taking their chances in a place they are familiar with.

Anyone that thinks that country folk are stupid push overs and will just let you come in and eat their food at take their property because the city people feel "entitled" to it are all going to be in for a rude awakening.
If you stay in any kind of "city" it will be a bloodbath once the "grid" is down. The gas, groceries, atms, etc all gone? The robbing and killing starts pretty fast. It will go full "Negan" in no time, with armed gangs quickly sweeping areas and taking all or most of everything at gun-point.

As far as "the country" - yeah, most folks think that they can just go onto any land they choose and set up housekeeping. That won't work out for a lot of folks when the land owners show up.

Better to PLAN now and scout some remote areas. Meet the people and make a deal so that you'll have somewhere to go to with fewer surprises. You can buy a tiny chunk of land or just have that buddy "up there" who knows you and says "Yeah, you can live there, just don't burn it down or come scratching at MY door for everything."

If you have to go someplace "cold" meaning without any connections - look for a little church well away from a big city. Wait there and meet the people. Show up with arms, food, ammo and such and a door will open for you.

Show up as an open-mouth, empty stomach and with empty hands - don't expect too much sympathy or hospitality.
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:26 PM   #159
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... Me? I am rural, but am sure to die. My area is heavy on the lovely Tourism industry, primarily drawing from NOVA, DC and Richmond. All those folks are going to remember the "safe clean country side" and come a-knocking.
Well, no, not sure to die unless an idiot. You just acknowledged the danger, so plan accordingly.

Be ready to relocate quickly to a lesser-known area, and go there in peace and well-supplied. Be eager to work and to help protect that new area. Be an asset and not a "refugee" for someone to take in.

On the flip-side, be sure that others in your area will use those "invaders" as their own "larder". They will prey upon the incoming for their own resources.

"Humans gonna human" applies. Good folks will do their thing and the Evil ones damn sure will do theirs.
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:40 PM   #160
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This may impact certain rural folks and is something I do worry about from time to time.

Does anyone else worry about the dangers of infected or diseased insects that that thrive in warmer climes that carry things like Zika, West Nile Virus, Lyme Disease, even freakin Bubonic Plague? Collapse of society means the cessation of muni spraying and other programs that today mitigate this risk.

Another example might be be all the dead cattle from 8ton's example leading to Anthrax or other diseases whose spores might carried on the wind. (Excellent analysis overall 8ton from a perspective I have not fully considered, which got me thinking about this.)

Cities would of course have their hands full w diseases that thrive w human dead bodies like cholera and typhus. But I think there are a lot of risks out in the bush today like poisonous snakes and long since dealt w diseases like malaria that we tend to take for granted today because we have ways to deal w them even when they happen, assuming the numbers are kept low (e.g., availability of anti-venom).

Anyone who has travelled in the third world knows what I am talking about. There is always some obscure, random, tragic tale befalling the country folk. In cities it's mainly the crime.
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Old 05-01-2018, 05:59 PM   #161
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Coincidentally, from today's New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/h...-diseases.html

"The number of people who get diseases transmitted by mosquito, tick and flea bites has more than tripled in the United States in recent years, federal health officials reported on Tuesday. Since 2004, at least nine such diseases have been newly discovered or introduced into the United States.

Warmer weather is an important cause of the surge in cases reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, according to the lead author of a study in the agency’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report."
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Old 05-01-2018, 06:32 PM   #162
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The problem with the cities is the people. But once majority of the people die off. It would be people well off. You can use buildings as green houses. You have plenty of material to make things with etc...

Don't worry about city folks going into the countryside. They won't. They'll kill each other first. Once enough space is made. They'll stay put.

I'm bugging in at this point most likely. My place still not fixed yet in the country.
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Old 05-01-2018, 07:34 PM   #163
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Dairy houses MUST have power to run milking equipment. After a few day SOP is to start shooting cows whose utters burst.
That could be an issue down here. One dairy in particular is massive. I canít even venture a guess how many cows they have.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:41 PM   #164
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I have to give credit, this is way more likely and a huge possibility/liability to deal with than forementioned “herds of gangs by the 1000’s roaming the country side to kill/rape and take what the rural residents have. Sanitation issue could be the downfall of many well prepped folk
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Old 05-08-2018, 08:34 AM   #165
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While we're on the topic of Vector Bourne diseases, Chagas Disease is another to consider. It'll grow in proiminence for just about anyone living below the Mason Dixon. There are only a few, but slowly increasing number of cases here in Virginia annually.

Its a very prominent disease in third world warm-climated countries where people are living in thatched rooves and other open forms of housing. These hemipterans dubbed "kissing" bugs don't inflict pain like the common wheel bugs here in North America. These feed on blood, so a party may wake up with multiple bites on their person.

Those discussing sanitation are correct. It will be a huge issue. Easily in the top 3 concerns.
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Old 05-08-2018, 03:47 PM   #166
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Sanitation will be a massive issue.


Urbanites will wipe themselves out quickly. Using the toilet still, or using the facilities in close proximity to sleeping quarters is going to help thin out the herd in a hurry.

I think mass starvation and the spread of relatively archaic illness (once easily cured) will cut the population down a 1/3rd in year one. Those of us smart enough to avoid that scenario all together just by living where we live will be fine. Shit, I can cast a rod and get 12 reds and blues in a few hours on the shore. Know your terrain, know your neighbors, block outsiders one way or another, and all will be peachy. Remember, you are not your brothers keeper when it comes to strangers.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:17 PM   #167
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Im good on ammo. Have around 25-30k rounds of various calibers. Enough components to reload another 10K atleast. I could do alot better on food for long term storage. I live a 5min walk or so to a major river. Have woods on my land and along the river too. Unfortunately I live on a major US highway and house is close to the road. If new house gets built before SHTF it will have enhancements for SHTF. Solar power for long term emergencies, generator, open up abandoned well and have the water checked. Safe room (underground) with armor. A way to evacuate the house of unwanted guests. Electrical shock works great so a "mouse" kill grid would work.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:17 PM   #168
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Time to buy some sort of BIO protection suits I guess. Sounds $$$ though.
Great thread with lots to think about and prioritize.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:21 PM   #169
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Boatguy's idea is a sound one IMO.
It would work assuming no major engine failure. hurricanes or very bad weather. Whos going to rescue you if your boat goes down or goes dead in the water? Dead in the water during high seas or real bad weather and you are totally fucked. Weather radar goes down and you could be fucked.

Pirates? Is someone else going to be out trying to survive on their boat and run out of shit you have and decide they need it more than you?

Water stores or purification fails and you are fucked.
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Old 05-09-2018, 04:36 PM   #170
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Time to buy some sort of BIO protection suits I guess. Sounds $$$ though.
Great thread with lots to think about and prioritize.
Not as expensive as you expect. The issue is durability. One rip, and...you're fucked.

That, and a decon area. Keep in mind, whatever is on that suit is coming with you. Without 2 buffer zones between where you take your suit off and wherever you consider shelter, you're just prolonging the inevitable. With a decon area, you're good.

Also, if you're in an area where you need a bio suit regularly, you need to reconsider where you are lol. Chances are, you should probably leave.
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Old 05-09-2018, 05:04 PM   #171
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Milsurp NBC suits and even NBC gas masks are actually pretty affordable these days. The NATO filters can get expensive for a guaranteed filter w non-expired date, but everything else is fairly affordable and readily available.

For a Nuke event the decontamination protocol is fairly straightforward as you are dealing w physical particles that attach to your outer layers, but can still be washed off w water as can your own body and hair in the worst case scenario.

I know much less about chemical decontamination, but I would think isolating any outer layers you are wearing, such as inside a steel air tight bin or sealed plastic bucket, depending upin the precise chemical, would be an absolute minimum.

In many ways it's the biological threats that worry me the most. People often can spread it without knowing they are carriers, and even if they do know, they often can spread it without YOU knowing.

Tragically, people are lazy, selfish, impulsive, irrationally sentimental, and most often lack foresight. These same people are your disease vectors who rush quarantine barricades and checkpoints because they have a drug habit, need to see their boyfriend, or go get Fido.

Best case scenario with a disease or bio threat is that it has an extremely short incubation period and kills mercifully fast. Start to stretch out your incubation period, especially if it's symptomless in the early days, and you got a real problem.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:31 AM   #172
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Many preppers or old school survivalists think of the likely flood of urban refugees as the "Golden Horde" and plan for it accordingly.

Jim Rawles in particular addresss it fairly well and it underlies most of his recommendations like being West of the Rockies.

Unless Yellowstone goes I guess.
If Yellowstone goes it won't matter where in the US you are or Europe for that matter.
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:48 PM   #173
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While we're on the topic of Vector Bourne diseases, Chagas Disease is another to consider. It'll grow in proiminence for just about anyone living below the Mason Dixon. There are only a few, but slowly increasing number of cases here in Virginia annually.

Its a very prominent disease in third world warm-climated countries where people are living in thatched rooves and other open forms of housing. These hemipterans dubbed "kissing" bugs don't inflict pain like the common wheel bugs here in North America. These feed on blood, so a party may wake up with multiple bites on their person.

Those discussing sanitation are correct. It will be a huge issue. Easily in the top 3 concerns.
The cases of Chagas found in those few people in Virginia were probably in immigrants , who already had it when they came here from central America .
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:16 PM   #174
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Urban....rural.... lol. yer fucked either way, its just a matter of how long it will take...

Me? I choose neither. Access to transportation with a 4000 gallon fuel capacity, 500 gallon fresh water tank with reverse osmosis system to convert sea water to fresh water, and tons of storage space. Ya'll have fun on land. I'll be waaaay away from the masses. Maybe come back in 6-8 months after everyone has devoured each other and their resources.
A boat has its own set of problems and just like city-vs-rural isn't a perfect solution in all situations.

Pretty good idea during a localized shtf event as you can easily move out of the area. However in a global event there is no where safe to make port and even a sailboat has to come ashore at some point.

How long do those RO filters last before clogging with salt? Distillation is the much better option for getting large amounts of fresh water at sea. Though it has its own drawbacks as well.

4000 gallons sounds like a lot but what's your gph rate and max range on that amount? Got solar/wind or are you burning through your fuel supply for a generator?

In the Florida area I seem to remember they have these things called hurricanes, often multiple ones a year. They are not fun on land and even less so on water. I have been through a couple on much-larger-then-your-boat Navy ships and even we were getting thrown around pretty good. Get caught in one and you can burn through a good portion of your fuel trying to maintain headway to avoid getting rolled and swamped.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:09 AM   #175
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It might be time to take heed to some of the post here and get some plans together.
I think it's about that time...
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