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Old 02-15-2017, 03:47 PM   #1
Rhodie2
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Default For SHTF

Anybody else have two different platforms e.g. AR & AK, for SHTF? I currently have an AK-74 (Vepr) and thinking of getting an AR.

Questions I have is what would you prefer a 16 or 20" barrel for SHTF?

Barrel twist: I thought the 1 to 7 was the favorite to handle all, now lately I have been reading 1 to 8. Is there that much difference between the two?

Manufacturer: There seems to be a boat load out there and from what I read the AR parts used to assemble for the most part come from a limited number of suppliers? I don't think you could go wrong with choosing from any one of them. I had been looking at Rock River Arms hear of late, they have a vast selection of rifles to choose from.

Thanks for any input.
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:58 PM   #2
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AR's are cheap right now, build both lengths, build a pistol while you're at it too LOL.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:08 PM   #3
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If weight is not an issue then I would go 20" barrel 1 in 8 or 1 in 7. Better against hard armor w M193 and M855 and better at range w 75gr-77gr BTHP. If u r looking to go lighter, say 1-2 pounds lighter than your VEPR, then a pencil barrel 16" also would serve you well. I saw a Colt OEM 6920 (no Handguard or buttstock) for $750 on slickguns.com last week. Hard to go wrong w the 6920.
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:40 PM   #4
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Unless you plan on doing some precise long range stuff, I dont think you need the 20" barrel. It will just get in the way. 16" from a quality manufacturer will be plenty good.

1:7 will stabilize heavier bullets for you. If you plan on sticking with M193 and M855, a 1:7 or 1:8 will do just fine. If you want to start getting up towards 77grain stuff, the 1:7 will be better.

For manufacturers, stick with well known brands. Colt, PSA, BCM, DD, Spikes, RRA. Yes lots of places sorce components from the same place but the better known brands will have higher tolerances set and you will be a lot less likely to get parts out of spec or fail early. Triggers and barrels are worth spending the money on.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:23 PM   #5
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Welcome to the files and glad to see another mid Illinoian exercising your constitutional right. But to answer your question, yes you are and American and you need to have an AR-15.

Prices, availability, variety, accessories and mags/ammo are to plentiful and common not to.
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:26 PM   #6
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You need one in 16 and 20" as well as one chambered in 300bk and one in 7.62x39 to be truly an american. And only little bitches buy an AR. Men BUILD them themselves. :P
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Old 02-15-2017, 05:28 PM   #7
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Sixteen inch over twenty. 5.56 does not gain much (maybe 100fps at barrel exit?) from the extra four inches, and certainly not enough to make any difference. The extra four inches is more cumbersome, extra weight and usually more expensive. IMHO if you want an accuratized AR get a sixteen inch heavy barrel. If the shit truly hits the fan you're not going to be shooting long range across a valley. Most fighting will take place in urban streets or houses. If you're obsessed with long range get a 308 instead of an AR15 and use your AKs for carbine range. A twenty inch barrel does not a long-range AR make.

Barrel Twist is way overthought and overemphasized. Unless you're going to extremes of bullet weight and barrel twists or trying to get every last bit of accuracy out of a long range shot just go with a common twist rate.

Manufacturer wise PSA is widely considered good to go without dipping into the premium or boutique brands. They have a lot of variety and regular sales. If memory serves their basic Freedom line passed the AKOU 5k torture test. Dunno if I would go for their PTAC line for SHTF rifle though.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:08 PM   #8
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Get a different caliber because you love guns, not for SHTF.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:59 PM   #9
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I'd get a heavy barrel 16" with a decent optic and back up irons at minimum

My heavy barrel mid length Armalite with the right ammo is incredibly accurate

After that practice practice practice, SHTF being able to quickly react using muscle memory will be a life saver
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:10 PM   #10
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A 16 MR762 would be the ideal solution to anything save Concealed carry. Just get a PTR-91 and get the best solution.

Out of my 17 weapons, I am proud not to own an aR-15. They aren't the worst choice, I just do not like DI 5.56 weapons. A 20 inch with the bull barrel will run better, shoot better, and will give the girly man 5.56 all the power it can get.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:13 PM   #11
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SHTF? I'd get an 11.5" since in that scenario laws don't matter. And I highly doubt you're going to be engaging targets over 100yds.

But, like others have stated get both. One can build a quality AR for under $500. And that's with FF rails, upgraded stocks etc.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:43 AM   #12
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I like having both for SHTF because you never know what ammo or mags you might have available. IMO a quality 16" rifle is all you need, a KISS rifle should be adequate. I'd take my PSA premium if it was a better option than one of my AKs for some reason. I'd rather be useing my Saiga 223 though.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:32 AM   #13
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AR's are cheap right now, build both lengths, build a pistol while you're at it too LOL.
WISDOM HERE.

My God, I got an email from Classic Arms this morning and they are selling one of their AR-15 models new for just $439.00.

Now that is getting to be a bargain basement price.

And NO I don't remember the name of the manufacturer but the parts are probably from the same factory as many other manufacturers use.

And once PWS/DDI gets their barrel and other QC issues solved you can get an AK kit at a decent price and finish assembly of one of those too.

So, say a prayer of "Thank You God" that supercunt Hillary Clinton did not get elected and enjoy the falling prices - to whatever price they end up falling to for AR-15s and AK-47 kits.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:30 PM   #14
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Anderson Manufacturing has caught my eye with their RF 85 Treated Rifle offerings. Is this for real or gimmick? I have heard of metals being impregnated with lubricants as this has gone on for years in manufacturing re: self lubricating process so why not in the gun industry? Surprised more Gun Manufactures have not taken up this same approach.
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Old 02-16-2017, 03:34 PM   #15
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Anderson Manufacturing has caught my eye with their RF 85 Treated Rifle offerings. Is this for real or gimmick? I have heard of metals being impregnated with lubricants as this has gone on for years in manufacturing re: self lubricating process so why not in the gun industry? Surprised more Gun Manufactures have not taken up this same approach.
Don't know if it's real, but a little oil now and then is cheap and not difficult to carry around.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:03 PM   #16
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Don't know if it's real, but a little oil now and then is cheap and not difficult to carry around.

gotcha...
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:31 PM   #17
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I'm debating on my SHTF AR being either DD or BCM maybe Spikes or Colt. The Spikes STLE middy and carbine can be had for undr $800 which is a pretty good deal for a pretty good rifle by reputation. I'd probably file down the gas block and throw a Troy m-lok freefloat rail on it or something like that.

Is it legal to own an SBR upper without paper work so long as it's not attached to a lower? I'm thinking along the lines of buying one and having it stashed and if the aliens invade paperwork won't really matter much but in case they stay home would I be fine so long as I didn't use it or hook it up?

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Old 02-16-2017, 06:33 PM   #18
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Is it legal to own an SBR upper without paper work so long as it's not attached to a lower?
Yes .....but you don't refer to it as an "SBR upper" because it's implicating you with intent if there is a lower with a stock on it nearby
Trust me, you don't want to leave your fate to some overzealous cop. It is simply a short barrel upper

Because technically it's not a firearm until it's fully assembled to a lower receiver.
It could be a pistol potentially, or an SBR potentially. So it's free and clear.

The way the law works if memory serves correctly, if you take a lower receiver and FIRST assemble it as a pistol, it can be taken down and make a pistol or rifle for life.
However, if you take a new lower receiver and make it a rifle 1st, then it's legally supposed to be a rifle for life.
You can't take it apart and create a pistol later.

Remember this.......
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Old 02-16-2017, 07:35 PM   #19
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Is it legal to own an SBR upper without paper work so long as it's not attached to a lower? I'm thinking along the lines of buying one and having it stashed and if the aliens invade paperwork won't really matter much but in case they stay home would I be fine so long as I didn't use it or hook it up?
(Ok I swear I am nit stalking ACEs today!) I would say an ironclad yes if it is on an AR pistol lower. PSA has em for $139. Cheap ins. Throw on a Shockwave (less than $50) or Sig Brace or Tail Hook and iu have a decent facsimile of an SBR right now, no muss no fuss.
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Old 02-16-2017, 09:21 PM   #20
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NFA is so damn stupid and makes no sense. How the hell is me having an AR with a 11.5" barrel so much worse than a 16" barrel? They can't give me that oh you can hide it bs cause pistol AR's are legal and with a brace the same damn thing basically. Repeal the damn NFA damnit!

.... Rant over.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:15 PM   #21
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]NFA is so damn stupid and makes no sense. How the hell is me having an AR with a 11.5" barrel so much worse than a 16" barrel? They can't give me that oh you can hide it bs cause pistol AR's are legal and with a brace the same damn thing basically. Repeal the damn NFA damnit!

.... Rant over.
Yes, yes it is.

Also, Aces pretty much nailed it in his response.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:21 AM   #22
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NFA is so damn stupid and makes no sense. How the hell is me having an AR with a 11.5" barrel so much worse than a 16" barrel? They can't give me that oh you can hide it bs cause pistol AR's are legal and with a brace the same damn thing basically. Repeal the damn NFA damnit!

.... Rant over.
Old law from 80 years ago......unfortunately, outdated and needs to be rescinded.

The community should seek the best writer to write a petition to the White House to rescind.
Maybe hold a competition ??? Just an idea.....we all benefit.

I'm talking like a highly educated writer/ speaker to draw in signatures and get the Presidents attention.
Someone who is good with law and arguments of supporting data.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:29 AM   #23
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If the O.P.'s primary concern/motivation is SHTF, then he should spend his money on a boatload of ammo and milsurp mags for his vepr.
Otherwise, just admit that you want an AR and just do it.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:52 AM   #24
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Rhodie,

SHTF is a generic term that could be used to describe anything from local riots, to Katrina, to alien invasion.

Be specific about a scenario, because there's hundreds of scenarios that fall into a SHTF topic
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:27 AM   #25
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Old law from 80 years ago......unfortunately, outdated and needs to be rescinded.

The community should seek the best writer to write a petition to the White House to rescind.
Maybe hold a competition ??? Just an idea.....we all benefit.

I'm talking like a highly educated writer/ speaker to draw in signatures and get the Presidents attention.
Someone who is good with law and arguments of supporting data.
Congress needs to repeal it, not the President.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:10 PM   #26
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Rhodie,

SHTF is a generic term that could be used to describe anything from local riots, to Katrina, to alien invasion.

Be specific about a scenario, because there's hundreds of scenarios that fall into a SHTF topic
That's fair enough... How about Civil Unrest, meltdown of our society, lawlessness. Motivated by an economic collapse, or politics. Think Katrina times 10 affecting not the entire nation but regions.

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If the O.P.'s primary concern/motivation is SHTF, then he should spend his money on a boatload of ammo and milsurp mags for his vepr.
Otherwise, just admit that you want an AR and just do it.
Maybe your on to something, I dunno. I do know this, my Vepr is awesome and more than a capable enough I would be confident with. My thought is, why not a rifle from a different platform, why limit yourself and be proficient with both, know their strengths and weaknesses. Is that wrong philosophy? Help me out here? Maybe you are seeing something that I don't? Of course this is for those hunkering down occasions. I am doubtful that I would be lugging both around if I was on the run. Maybe stash the AR and come back for it later, if I was able to.

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Old 02-17-2017, 04:28 PM   #27
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Maybe your on to something, I dunno. I do know this, my Vepr is awesome and more than a capable enough I would be confident with. My thought is, why not a rifle from a different platform, why limit yourself and be proficient with both, know their strengths and weaknesses. Is that wrong philosophy? Help me out here? Maybe you are seeing something that I don't? Of course this is for those hunkering down occasions. I am doubtful that I would be lugging both around if I was on the run. Maybe stash the AR and come back for it later, if I was able to.
They're both fun to shoot so why not have both? I see no disadvantage to being as proficient as possible with both types of rifle. If SHTF was something I based purchases off of, I would personally think going into someone's house in America I'd have a lot better chance finding an AR, 223 ammo, and AR mags than anything AK related. So might as well know what it is I'm looking at and how to use it.

I was once all AK, one caliber. But it's boring. So I ended up with AKs in 7.62x39 and 5.56/223 and ARs in 7.62x39 and 5.56/223. And they're all extremely different guns to shoot which keeps it interesting for me, and it gives me options.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:57 PM   #28
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They're both fun to shoot so why not have both? I see no disadvantage to being as proficient as possible with both types of rifle. If SHTF was something I based purchases off of, I would personally think going into someone's house in America I'd have a lot better chance finding an AR, 223 ammo, and AR mags than anything AK related. So might as well know what it is I'm looking at and how to use it.

I was once all AK, one caliber. But it's boring. So I ended up with AKs in 7.62x39 and 5.56/223 and ARs in 7.62x39 and 5.56/223. And they're all extremely different guns to shoot which keeps it interesting for me, and it gives me options.
Interesting Reply, thanks. Is there an difference in accuracy between the AK 223/556 & AR 7.62 platforms? Splitting hairs? Thanks
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Rhodie2 View Post
Anybody else have two different platforms e.g. AR & AK, for SHTF? I currently have an AK-74 (Vepr) and thinking of getting an AR.

Questions I have is what would you prefer a 16 or 20" barrel for SHTF?

Barrel twist: I thought the 1 to 7 was the favorite to handle all, now lately I have been reading 1 to 8. Is there that much difference between the two?

Manufacturer: There seems to be a boat load out there and from what I read the AR parts used to assemble for the most part come from a limited number of suppliers? I don't think you could go wrong with choosing from any one of them. I had been looking at Rock River Arms hear of late, they have a vast selection of rifles to choose from.

Thanks for any input.
Hello from a fellow Illinoisan.
For SHTF, generally speaking, 16 inch barrels are favored because they are more compact. 1 in 8 twist is popular because you can run a wide variety of bullet weights.
For a great SHTF AR, the Spikes ST15 LE fits the bill.
Its a high quality rifle that can be had for $717. Its a steal at that price.
http://grabagun.com/spike-str5035-ml...d-5-56-16.html

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Is it legal to own an SBR upper without paper work so long as it's not attached to a lower? I'm thinking along the lines of buying one and having it stashed and if the aliens invade paperwork won't really matter much but in case they stay home would I be fine so long as I didn't use it or hook it up?
Its a paperweight unless installed.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:34 PM   #30
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Interesting Reply, thanks. Is there an difference in accuracy between the AK 223/556 & AR 7.62 platforms? Splitting hairs? Thanks
I think it's splitting hairs, but think you can possibly squeeze more out of the ARs in each. However, I don't think a 7.62 AR is proven enough to be something I'd rely upon in an extended SHTF scenario. Fun as hell to shoot and have never had a problem, but need a lot more rounds through it to know if it's dependable. I just like to shoot though and buy things I like to shoot.

A proven AK in most any caliber (7.62x39 for me due to availability and what I think I'd likely find in the wild) and a good, proven AR in 5.56 would be what I'd personally focus on acquiring for SHTF. And that's the minimum. YMMV
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:48 PM   #31
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Hello from a fellow Illinoisan.
For SHTF, generally speaking, 16 inch barrels are favored because they are more compact. 1 in 8 twist is popular because you can run a wide variety of bullet weights.
For a great SHTF AR, the Spikes ST15 LE fits the bill.
Its a high quality rifle that can be had for $717. Its a steal at that price.
http://grabagun.com/spike-str5035-ml...d-5-56-16.html
Thanks for the tip, and yes from I have read over the last few months is nothing but good things about Spike, really get's high marks.
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Old 02-18-2017, 06:47 AM   #32
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That's fair enough... How about Civil Unrest, meltdown of our society, lawlessness. Motivated by an economic collapse, or politics. Think Katrina times 10 affecting not the entire nation but regions.
A permanent looking scenario nationwide, I would look at what your options are for a team.
If you will be alone, or if you have family that will be your roaming squad.

That's going to play the biggest factor IMHO. I don't choose based on my own single perspective.
I choose based on my family and what they will carry as we will be together out there if that scenario unfolded.

With that being said, if I was a solo op in a crashed society...... I'd go AR15 all day without question, and a 9mm sidearm.
As much as I love AK's and prefer them, the reality is they are not the native and chosen weapon and ammo in America.
You can only carry so much 7.62 or 5.45 before you need to resupply. That's where the rubber meets the road in survival.

As for 9mm , I've seen people take multiple 45 ACP shots and keep on coming and survive.
Alot of what you read is internet hero crap.
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Old 02-18-2017, 08:24 AM   #33
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You need one in 16 and 20" as well as one chambered in 300bk and one in 7.62x39 to be truly an american. And only little bitches buy an AR. Men BUILD them themselves. :P
Well, assemble them...
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Old 02-19-2017, 11:43 PM   #34
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would you prefer a 16 or 20" barrel for SHTF?
16 or less, 'cuz I don't live in Afghanistan. The advantages of the longer system aren't enough to tempt me for this specific question. One of my uppers is a 20" and I like it just fine; it has its place.

You get good reliability and long-term parts durability with a full-length gas system. That's good for military ownership or for high-volume sport shooting (like 3gun). Imo it's borderline irrelevant in shtf 'cuz you're not going to be shooting tens of thousands of rounds.

A longer barrel helps with fragging at distance and with punching through lower-priced armor (if the ammo is a good match). However, my bad-day ammo is gold dot bonded hollowpoints so for my shtf this is irrelevant. My way is not the only way; if you are worried about armor maybe something like a 20" barrel with alternating m193/m855 would be smarter for you than what I have. Or maybe get a shotgun and shoot their face repeatedly (0% joking).

The extra velocity from a longer barrel has no importance at the distances I can imagine needing to shoot in shtf here. For some of you, this might not be true. You must be the judge; I don't know a single thing about your circumstances.

The weight/balance advantage of a shorter barrel is good 'cuz you need a flashlight on your shtf rifle. Gotta have it. Idgaf who disagrees.


Quote:
I thought the 1 to 7 was the favorite to handle all, now lately I have been reading 1 to 8. Is there that much difference between the two?
Not unless you want to shoot either tracers or ultra-lite varmint bullets. I favor 1:8 over anything else, yet my "shtf rifle" has 1:7, 'cuz that's what the maker made.


A couple quick things you didn't ask about: I prefer flash hiders over muzzle brakes, and I recommend factory-made uppers and lowers vs hobbyist-assembled. QC matters.

Quote:
Manufacturer: There seems to be a boat load out there and from what I read the AR parts used to assemble for the most part come from a limited number of suppliers? I don't think you could go wrong with choosing from any one of them. I had been looking at Rock River Arms hear of late, they have a vast selection of rifles to choose from.
Good parts are preferable to cheap parts. You can go wrong, and would be wrong, by cheaping out. I don't trust RRA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys1 View Post
Is it legal to own an SBR upper without paper work so long as it's not attached to a lower?
Imo you should own a pistol lower if you own an upper which could be used to assemble an illegal SBR. Obeying the law is relatively convenient, so why not do it? It ain't free, but it is cheaper than asking a lawyer about anything important.
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:02 AM   #35
logan09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyfoot View Post
Imo you should own a pistol lower if you own an upper which could be used to assemble an illegal SBR. Obeying the law is relatively convenient, so why not do it? It ain't free, but it is cheaper than asking a lawyer about anything important.
Or just a stripped lower in general. They are sold as "other" because they can be built as a pistol or rifle. Hence why you have to be 21 to purchase one.
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