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Old 06-17-2018, 03:47 AM   #36
mishaco
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I waited to post in here until my own Micro Galil, also built by Jeff Miller, had sold on Gunbroker.

First off, i want to say L&B has remained polite and professional. Say what you will about that price, at least there's that.


OK, so onto my story.....Back in May, i decided to thin the heard a bit. I have been picking up several new toys and well its always good to balance the scales.

In my Galil section, i have the Vektor LM5, Ace 556 Carbine, and both an ARM and MAR built by J. Miller.

I decided to sell the Ace carbine and MAR; replacing those 2 with just the Ace 556 Pistol. The pistol afterall is basically an updated/modernized Micro Galil anyway, is an original Israeli mfg product, can be had with a brace from the factory, and above all costs less than either the carbine or Micro.

As to how i got my MAR, here back in 2014-2015, Jeff Miller assembled a run of MAR matching kits with original barrels on CNC Warrior receivers. Liking both the product and price, i negotiated to buy 6-8 for my store.
I won't disclose what i paid as a dealer, but it was under $2k and retail was $2.2k to $2.3k depending on furniture.
These were all "carbines" with the original stock and the 8.4" barrel had a faux suppressor installed. It was done with a single pin though, designed to be easy enough to remove for an SBR.

Very nice guns, reliable as all get-out, and they sold well for me. I kept one back for myself, the one i simply liked best as it was a middle production style: horizontal cocking handle, intermediate handguard, and the second pattern stock.

I hung onto it and enjoyed it for over 3 years, but like I said, it was time to thin the herd. As much as I like Mr. Miller's work, i reasoned that having an actual IWI assembled Ace pistol with Micro length forend and factory side folding brace was a better call and investment. Besides, i still have my other JM gun, the ARM.

I posted the Micro Carbine on GB with a starting bid of $1.9k and a buy now of $2.1k. I reasoned it should have a couple bucks knocked off for being fired now and all that, but on the otherhand hey MAR kits are pricier today than they were 3-4 years ago right?

It sat on GB for a week. I had several offers, most in the $1.8k range. Today, someone hit the buy-now.
The fact that no one clicked it in the previous 7 days tells me it wasn't majorily under priced. If it had been, someone would have gone for it earlier.

I think the Ace Pistol with brace maybe has devalued the Micro Galil a bit. That and right now, folks simply do not have a lot of free coin to spend.

Those are my thoughts and experiences....not knocking L&B, just sharing that I've had and sold Jeff Miller Micros for considerably less money.
Maybe you could say the CNC receiver isn't as high of quality? But all I've had were well made and none had heat treat issues, so seemed fine to me. I am sure if they were crap, Jeff would have never used them either.

My ARM from him is a reweld and he is just about the only guy in America I'd trust to reweld a Galil receiver.

Best of luck to L&B, always neat to see fresh imports, cheers,
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:51 AM   #37
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What is anything worth?



Whatever somebody is willing to pay for it.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:45 PM   #38
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Wow looks sweet ...
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:34 PM   #39
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If i were to try and offer constructive criticism, it wouldn't be priarmily targeted at the price point. I've been doing this job too long not to know sometimes costs add up, and the longer a project tighs up a chunk of money, the higher a percentage of profit a business needs to make in order to justify everything.

But the one aspect that really isn't acceptable in 2018 is the inability to accept an arm brace right out of the box. Idealy, it would just come with an IWI brand folding SB Tac brace, but failing that, it should at least be able to have one installed without requiring gunsmithing.
If IWI feels it is safe & legal to do this, than Jeff Miller needs to relax. I understand his old school way of thinking, but braces have been around long enough now to show that the ATF is fine with them.
I don't like change much myself, but he's going to have to get with the times if he wants to build Galil type pistols.
Besides, lets be honest, without a brace, something like this isn't at all fun to shoot.
I'd even argue having the brace makes it safer for everyone at the range.

Literally every 'pistol' based on an SMG or compact rifle on the market today comes setup so that a brace can easily be installed. It has become an industry standard. Right up there with say accepting a common magazine type and/or having a threaded muzzle.

I enjoy seeing new products on the market, especially from smaller businesses and builders. Also, its always nice to see a new Galil variant come along.

I'll finish by saying even more than MARs, lately I've had a large number of customers and just gun guys ask me about where to find a quality SAR type carbine. I think the short but not too short 13" barrel and lighter weight really appeal to folks.
Just an observation, cheers.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:43 AM   #40
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Comparing a build to a factory built gun is apples and oranges IMO.

I get what your saying about the ACE pistol being similar to a micro as it is. Ive interchanged parts and compared them and its true but its still not the same to me.

The parts on a ACE have no history and they received no personal touch outside of someone trained to fit the parts to make it go bang. Though if I was to recommend a new rifle or pistol it would be the ACE.

Honestly I almost purchased the Micro you had for sale. I thought it was priced really low even to part out but it being built already by Jeff and GTG I have plenty already. Really I think you sold yourself short on that deal but its your money. Next time you want to give away something give us all a heads up as some people on here dont skim Gobroker too often.

I do agree Id like to see some sort of brace or maybe make a rifle with a Fake suppressor and the original folding stock on it or even without the fake can. It would be especially nice for the guys who like to SBR everything under the sun I think it would be more marketable for sure.

As for the 13" barrel, thats more in line with the SAR and not really the MAR.

Although a 11" MAR looks really nice and leaves Lewis & Black still in the market if they were to produce such a animal.

I will finish by saying not everything needs to be about sales and making money. Some guys will pay and most guys (Gals ) wont. If this was a buy and resell to profit thing then sure but I dont think it is (Not for me).

Im a Builder and hoarder of parts as many know and it isnt for reselling purposes. I have a true fondness for these rifles for different reasons and they keep me in line and out of trouble...So if somebody plops down 3 or 4k for a rifle then I would assume its what they know they want.

I know you are unable to build and I wish I could share the pleasure it is to do so. Its a different kind of feeling towards a well built rifle VS a factory built.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIG*7.62 View Post
Only compliant with price I have is it was intentionally made more difficult to brace or sbr cause durrr
That was Jeff's intent...and he and I both know that's not what everyone wants, yet the objective was met.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:36 PM   #42
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Default Well Articulated Constructive Criticism

Quote:
Originally Posted by mishaco View Post
If i were to try and offer constructive criticism, it wouldn't be priarmily targeted at the price point. I've been doing this job too long not to know sometimes costs add up, and the longer a project tighs up a chunk of money, the higher a percentage of profit a business needs to make in order to justify everything.

But the one aspect that really isn't acceptable in 2018 is the inability to accept an arm brace right out of the box. Idealy, it would just come with an IWI brand folding SB Tac brace, but failing that, it should at least be able to have one installed without requiring gunsmithing.
If IWI feels it is safe & legal to do this, than Jeff Miller needs to relax. I understand his old school way of thinking, but braces have been around long enough now to show that the ATF is fine with them.
I don't like change much myself, but he's going to have to get with the times if he wants to build Galil type pistols.
Besides, lets be honest, without a brace, something like this isn't at all fun to shoot.
I'd even argue having the brace makes it safer for everyone at the range.

Literally every 'pistol' based on an SMG or compact rifle on the market today comes setup so that a brace can easily be installed. It has become an industry standard. Right up there with say accepting a common magazine type and/or having a threaded muzzle.

I enjoy seeing new products on the market, especially from smaller businesses and builders. Also, its always nice to see a new Galil variant come along.

I'll finish by saying even more than MARs, lately I've had a large number of customers and just gun guys ask me about where to find a quality SAR type carbine. I think the short but not too short 13" barrel and lighter weight really appeal to folks.
Just an observation, cheers.
This is what objective constructive criticism looks like.....thank you Sir.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:59 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullicrk View Post
Comparing a build to a factory built gun is apples and oranges IMO.

I get what your saying about the ACE pistol being similar to a micro as it is. Ive interchanged parts and compared them and its true but its still not the same to me.

The parts on a ACE have no history and they received no personal touch outside of someone trained to fit the parts to make it go bang. Though if I was to recommend a new rifle or pistol it would be the ACE.

Honestly I almost purchased the Micro you had for sale. I thought it was priced really low even to part out but it being built already by Jeff and GTG I have plenty already. Really I think you sold yourself short on that deal but its your money. Next time you want to give away something give us all a heads up as some people on here dont skim Gobroker too often.

I do agree Id like to see some sort of brace or maybe make a rifle with a Fake suppressor and the original folding stock on it or even without the fake can. It would be especially nice for the guys who like to SBR everything under the sun I think it would be more marketable for sure.

As for the 13" barrel, thats more in line with the SAR and not really the MAR.

Although a 11" MAR looks really nice and leaves Lewis & Black still in the market if they were to produce such a animal.

I will finish by saying not everything needs to be about sales and making money. Some guys will pay and most guys (Gals ) wont. If this was a buy and resell to profit thing then sure but I dont think it is (Not for me).

Im a Builder and hoarder of parts as many know and it isnt for reselling purposes. I have a true fondness for these rifles for different reasons and they keep me in line and out of trouble...So if somebody plops down 3 or 4k for a rifle then I would assume its what they know they want.

I know you are unable to build and I wish I could share the pleasure it is to do so. Its a different kind of feeling towards a well built rifle VS a factory built.
You touched upon one of the least understood aspects of pricing; customer perspective. If I gross $50k/year at my job and my wife shows me a $5,000 dining table, there's an obvious issue. Relative to what I make, $5k is beyond stupid as far a cost to benefit. Seriously, a card table will suffice. And this is where I've tried to help my kids understand the perspective of those who have of late, been hit with a moniker of "the 1%". Relative to their income, it is inconsequential to pay $5k for a dining table if you're clearing $5 million/year. It is the equivalent of that dining table costing $5 bucks on my $50k annual income.
I'm not advocating this pistol is only for the guy making millions, but the guy making millions, doesn't care what it is priced, he just wants to show his buddy's that he has one and they don't. So back to constructive criticism...We relish and solicit how we can make a better product. Our individual and personal threshold for what something's worth doesn't mean one can't provide some real insight on how to make it better.
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lewis and Black View Post
That was Jeff's intent...and he and I both know that's not what everyone wants, yet the objective was met.
My point. His intent...sucks. Bit of fudd aspect to that..

Yes, Misha is great and said it all in a much less dicky way than myself, not denying that
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:34 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mullicrk View Post
I thought it was priced really low even to part out but it being built already by Jeff and GTG I have plenty already. Really I think you sold yourself short on that deal but it's your money.
I agree with the price it sold for. I'm sure Misha still came out ahead given what he paid for it a few years ago. Kudos to the person who bought it!

FYI they have alternatives for those looking for a MAR with a brace. Jaxx Industries sells a Micro Galil WITH brace installed, built on a CNC Warrior receiver, under 3k. Not sure of the quality, fit and finish but the option is there.
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