Go Back   The AK Files Forums > Rifle Forums > Shotguns

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-17-2017, 04:51 PM   #71
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

I am going to be bumping one of these up my priority list. I keep reading a bunch of dumbass questions about the legalities of this on other forums and social media. A couple tards are convinced that they can add stocks to these because the 4473 will be "firearm" .... there's no cure for stupidity, but I can be sure the ATF will be bombarded with letter requests like the sig brace debacle. Then you have the Fudd's flipping out over it.

I definitely don't want stupid people to make the ATF think this is a "loophole" and try to reclassify these as DD's, like they did the Streetsweeper.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2017, 05:54 PM   #72
pre1989
Curio & Relic
 
pre1989's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 175922
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Flagstaff AZ
Posts: 3,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
I am going to be bumping one of these up my priority list. I keep reading a bunch of dumbass questions about the legalities of this on other forums and social media. A couple tards are convinced that they can add stocks to these because the 4473 will be "firearm" .... there's no cure for stupidity, but I can be sure the ATF will be bombarded with letter requests like the sig brace debacle. Then you have the Fudd's flipping out over it.

I definitely don't want stupid people to make the ATF think this is a "loophole" and try to reclassify these as DD's, like they did the Streetsweeper.
Yep seen the same thing ..OH dur this is a NFA how is this legal lets poke the bear etc etc

I am hopeing they dont re do the OTHER class rule ( ie 26inch oal stuff like this and the VFG pistols ) ..Hopefully people shut up and like it

At min yes the worry will be these are re classed as AOWs
__________________
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
pre1989 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2017, 06:27 PM   #73
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

My old lady is going to kick my ass, but I just placed an order. Total damage done was $392.99 with Florida sales tax added from Gunbuyer. Still the cheapest price available online.

I have a 590 from gunbroker getting to my FFL on Wednesday, and I am getting my Shield from PSA at the same time. Hopefully Gunbuyer can ship it two hours down the coast by the end of the week so I can get all three at once. My FFL is over an hour away, so I hate making multiple trips.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2017, 09:53 PM   #74
Barth
Likes Suchkas
 
Barth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 168359
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 1,025
Cool Storm Warning

Unable to Resist - Shockwave Inbound

Last edited by Barth; 04-19-2017 at 10:05 AM.
Barth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 03:03 PM   #75
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

Mine hasn't shipped yet, but my FFL's exact words when he looked it up were "that looks illegal as F***."

I explained how it falls into the "Other Firearm" category, but will be bringing a copy of the letter with me when it arrives in case I get hassled about it by another employee.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 04:19 PM   #76
darink300zx
Member
 
darink300zx's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 183098
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: KY
Posts: 385
Default

Picked mine up today. I found it odd that my FFL got it yesterday (UPS tracking confirmed) but didn't call me until today. Usually when I have something shipped to them they call me as soon as they get it. When I got there to pick it up we got to talking and he was like, yeah, we had to look this thing up when we got it to make sure it was legal. LOL.

They are just a little reloaders supply place that does FFL transfers and sells some guns on consignment so it didn't really surprise me that they'd never heard of it. He was very impressed with it though and seemed genuinely interested in how well it handles when I shoot it.
__________________
darink300zx on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ9TysEIGyveqp2tL7cq-Tg
darink300zx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 05:11 PM   #77
codifier
Your Huckleberry
 
codifier's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 170379
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
Mine hasn't shipped yet, but my FFL's exact words when he looked it up were "that looks illegal as F***."

I explained how it falls into the "Other Firearm" category, but will be bringing a copy of the letter with me when it arrives in case I get hassled about it by another employee.
I would find another FFL.
__________________

Quote:
All the power [the State] has is what society gives it, plus what it confiscates from time to time on one pretext or another;
there is no other source from which State power can be drawn. Therefore every assumption of State power, whether by gift
or seizure, leaves society with so much less power.

― Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, the State
codifier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 05:16 PM   #78
codifier
Your Huckleberry
 
codifier's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 170379
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
I am going to be bumping one of these up my priority list. I keep reading a bunch of dumbass questions about the legalities of this on other forums and social media. A couple tards are convinced that they can add stocks to these because the 4473 will be "firearm" .... there's no cure for stupidity, but I can be sure the ATF will be bombarded with letter requests like the sig brace debacle. Then you have the Fudd's flipping out over it.

I definitely don't want stupid people to make the ATF think this is a "loophole" and try to reclassify these as DD's, like they did the Streetsweeper.
I think that cat is out of the bag. Mossberg isn't the only manufacturer for these types of shotguns/firearms/whatever and I am sure there will be a large number on the street given the price point by the time the ATF can reconsider. Not putting it completely past them to reclassify it, but kind of like the wrist braces they've let things get too far to put the genie back in the bottle should they decide to. This isn't the 80s anymore, they do another Streetsweeper decision there may well be hell to pay and they know it.
__________________

Quote:
All the power [the State] has is what society gives it, plus what it confiscates from time to time on one pretext or another;
there is no other source from which State power can be drawn. Therefore every assumption of State power, whether by gift
or seizure, leaves society with so much less power.

― Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, the State
codifier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 05:41 PM   #79
nalioth
Devil's Advocate & Moderator
 
nalioth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5678
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 35,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codifier View Post
I think that cat is out of the bag. Mossberg isn't the only manufacturer for these types of shotguns/firearms/whatever and I am sure there will be a large number on the street given the price point by the time the ATF can reconsider. Not putting it completely past them to reclassify it, but kind of like the wrist braces they've let things get too far to put the genie back in the bottle should they decide to. This isn't the 80s anymore, they do another Streetsweeper decision there may well be hell to pay and they know it.
I'm not sure where you've been, but this setup has been legal since 1934.

We've been talking about it here for a few years now: Two non-NFA firearms for your perusal . . - AK Files
nalioth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 06:12 PM   #80
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codifier View Post
I would find another FFL.
No need for that. Just like the poster above me, the FFL had never heard about it. There aren't enough of these in the wild yet for them to be common knowledge. There definitely will be a large number on the streets in a couple months. Kudos to Shockwave and Mossberg for capitalizing on a loophole with ATF firearm definitions, but this is a major shot across the bow to the ATF with a couple middle fingers extended as well.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 06:14 PM   #81
nalioth
Devil's Advocate & Moderator
 
nalioth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 5678
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 35,873
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
No need for that. Just like the poster above me, the FFL had never heard about it. There aren't enough of these in the wild yet for them to be common knowledge. There definitely will be a large number on the streets in a couple months. Kudos to Shockwave and Mossberg for capitalizing on a loophole with ATF firearm definitions, but this is a major shot across the bow to the ATF with a couple middle fingers extended as well.
Guys, it's not a loophole.

The law ( 1934 National Firearms Act ) is clear on the legality of this.


Again, NOT A LOOPHOLE - just the letter of the law.
nalioth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 08:22 PM   #82
GDubya
Member
 
GDubya's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 191529
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Home of The King
Posts: 53
Default

Even in a 15' hallway, know YOUR patterning and practice aimed/EFFECTIVE HITS. Because said bogey could be intimately/fyu on you in ~1.5 seconds.
GDubya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 08:41 PM   #83
Barth
Likes Suchkas
 
Barth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 168359
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 1,025
Cool Storm Warning

https://youtu.be/fM_sqSTg2v8

Last edited by Barth; 04-19-2017 at 08:52 PM.
Barth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2017, 11:18 PM   #84
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
I'm not sure where you've been, but this setup has been legal since 1934.

We've been talking about it here for a few years now: Two non-NFA firearms for your perusal . . - AK Files

Granted, it does not meet the definition of "shotgun" so it can't be an SBS. And ATF has said 26" is the presumed limit of concealability so it's not an AOW.

However, it IS a firearm with a bore diameter over .5 inch and as ATF has ruled (correctly) that it is NOT a "shotgun", the Destructive Device exemption for "shotguns" would not apply.

The only other exemptions that could apply are if the AG determines it is "not likely to be used as a weapon" or if it is a "rifle used soleley for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes." I think it would be a tough sell to any AG that these are not intended to be weapons, and they are smoothbores so the rifle thing wouldn't apply.

So how is it not a DD going strictly by the language in the laws/regs? ATF is currently not puishing it due to the many thousands if not millions of older Mossberg Cruisers/Persuaders out there, but as you have pointed out lack of enforcement of the law is not the same as being legal...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


(4) The term “destructive device” means—

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and


The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 10:19 AM   #85
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
Granted, it does not meet the definition of "shotgun" so it can't be an SBS. And ATF has said 26" is the presumed limit of concealability so it's not an AOW.

However, it IS a firearm with a bore diameter over .5 inch and as ATF has ruled (correctly) that it is NOT a "shotgun", the Destructive Device exemption for "shotguns" would not apply.

The only other exemptions that could apply are if the AG determines it is "not likely to be used as a weapon" or if it is a "rifle used soleley for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes." I think it would be a tough sell to any AG that these are not intended to be weapons, and they are smoothbores so the rifle thing wouldn't apply.

So how is it not a DD going strictly by the language in the laws/regs? ATF is currently not puishing it due to the many thousands if not millions of older Mossberg Cruisers/Persuaders out there, but as you have pointed out lack of enforcement of the law is not the same as being legal...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921


(4) The term “destructive device” means—

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and


The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
Proof that the firearms community is its own worst enemy. A major manufacturer like Mossberg is very aware of the laws and obviously already has ATF approval, before releasing this product for sale.
Buy one enjoy it, if you don't like it and or it scares you ,please ignore it.

Christ, more of the Sig brace fiasco!!!
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 12:55 PM   #86
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy72 View Post
Proof that the firearms community is its own worst enemy. A major manufacturer like Mossberg is very aware of the laws and obviously already has ATF approval, before releasing this product for sale.
Buy one enjoy it, if you don't like it and or it scares you ,please ignore it.

Christ, more of the Sig brace fiasco!!!

No, it's proof that firearms laws are confusing, contradictory, and ATF has and will continue to interpret them in an inconsistent and ever-changing manner.

"ATF Approval" can be yanked at any time, as has happened numerous times over the years.

Mossberg has made a pistol grip only shotgun for sale since the 70s at least, and everybody considered them shotguns until recently when ATF declared they weren't "shotguns" due to a manufacturer asking what they were classified as. When the answer was "firearm", not "Shotgun" THEY opened the DD can of worms that was overlooked for over 4 decades.

ATF's response so far is to ignore the issue as it makes them look bad for allowing sales of unregistered DDs for decades if they go after them, not to mention the legal ramifications to them for doing so. From what I have read a quiet "behind the scenes" negotiation is being done to change the regs to exempt at least the 18"+ bbl versions from the DD class.

Until that happens as far as I can tell they fall under the DD classification whether or not ATF is making an issue of it. It is no secret and has been discussed since these types first appeared.

https://www.ammoland.com/2015/05/sho...#axzz4eksrtIn7


http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...ufacturer.html
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 01:55 PM   #87
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
No, it's proof that firearms laws are confusing, contradictory, and ATF has and will continue to interpret them in an inconsistent and ever-changing manner.

"ATF Approval" can be yanked at any time, as has happened numerous times over the years.

Mossberg has made a pistol grip only shotgun for sale since the 70s at least, and everybody considered them shotguns until recently when ATF declared they weren't "shotguns" due to a manufacturer asking what they were classified as. When the answer was "firearm", not "Shotgun" THEY opened the DD can of worms that was overlooked for over 4 decades.

ATF's response so far is to ignore the issue as it makes them look bad for allowing sales of unregistered DDs for decades if they go after them, not to mention the legal ramifications to them for doing so. From what I have read a quiet "behind the scenes" negotiation is being done to change the regs to exempt at least the 18"+ bbl versions from the DD class.

Until that happens as far as I can tell they fall under the DD classification whether or not ATF is making an issue of it. It is no secret and has been discussed since these types first appeared.

https://www.ammoland.com/2015/05/sho...#axzz4eksrtIn7


http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...ufacturer.html
Agree about ATF. But all major manufacturers ,work with/usually have a decent relationship with ATF.
Its there bread and butter. Not to mention Attorneys' to steer clear of major issues as best they can.
Not losing sleep over my ownership of the Shockwave, worst/unlikely case it
will be classed a DD and value will increase overnight.
When the HPA is passed ,god only knows how many Fudd types will wet there panties over that as well!!
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 02:12 PM   #88
Big_Red_Rocket
Member
 
Big_Red_Rocket's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 173624
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 430
Default

Aside from the fact that this 100% legal and that the manufacturer of the birdshead grip has the letter from the ATF on their website for the last 2+ years you could look at the industry response.

About 12-18 months ago when these were heating up in sales and people realized they could spend $200 on a specific 14" fore end package from Mossberg, Mossberg stopped selling the parts. They decided to take a step back and make sure there wasn't going to be a problem with the ATF.

Then they went back on sale, even being a new selection in your latest Cheaper Than Dirt catalogue - so mainstream at that point. Then they appeared at SHOT show and now a "Factory" option.

So, yes, they are legal.
Big_Red_Rocket is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 05:52 PM   #89
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,065
Default

Other than "ATF sez it's OK" I have yet to see anyone here explain why, using the actual DD regs I have posted, a firearm that is NOT a shotgun, fires modern ammunition, and has a smoothbore bbl over half an inch in diameter is not a DD. The exceptions are listed and I don't see one these PGO firearms currently fall under. The only possible one is a determination by the AG that a particular firearm is "not likely to be used as a weapon". Hasn't happened that I know of.

Mossberg has been selling the Cruiser/Persuader models for well over 40 years now. THOSE models are DDs too under the regs, it's about bore diameter and lack of a stock, not bbl length. As far as they are concerned, what's a few thousand more with a different length bbl? If there ever is a change and they have to recall or whatever they are no worse off than they were before. The makers of the shockwave grip are selling an accessory, it's up to the buyer to determine how to legally use it. Very little legal exposure for either company.

Currently ATF is not making an issue of the corner they have interpreted themselves into. This is not the same as being legal. As was pointed out on another thread, the fact that one can sell marijuana in some locations without being arrested for it is merely a lack of enforcement of Federal laws, not proof it is a legal activity. You will note no banks want anything to do with the huge amounts of revenue the "legal" pot stores are generating, why is that?
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 06:49 PM   #90
Greg845
Member
 
AKaholic #: 182057
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 82
Default



$375 out the door at my LGS. I couldn't say no I apologize if the picture is big I'm posting on my iPhone.
Greg845 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 08:47 PM   #91
esh21167
Curio & Relic
 
AKaholic #: 170974
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 5,462
Default

Mine is at the FFL. Hopefully tomorrow...
esh21167 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 09:02 PM   #92
Barth
Likes Suchkas
 
Barth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 168359
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 1,025
Default

Mine is inbound.
What do you guys think about a side saddle?
Barth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 09:51 PM   #93
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barth View Post
Mine is inbound.
What do you guys think about a side saddle?
I decided against it due to excess weight for my intended usage. Mine will mainly be used on snakes. It will be a lot lighter than lugging a Vepr-12 around six acres.

I do need to figure out a sling solution.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 10:29 PM   #94
Greg845
Member
 
AKaholic #: 182057
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 82
Default

I'd love to put a single point sling on it.
Greg845 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2017, 11:29 PM   #95
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
Other than "ATF sez it's OK" I have yet to see anyone here explain why, using the actual DD regs I have posted, a firearm that is NOT a shotgun, fires modern ammunition, and has a smoothbore bbl over half an inch in diameter is not a DD. The exceptions are listed and I don't see one these PGO firearms currently fall under. The only possible one is a determination by the AG that a particular firearm is "not likely to be used as a weapon". Hasn't happened that I know of.

Mossberg has been selling the Cruiser/Persuader models for well over 40 years now. THOSE models are DDs too under the regs, it's about bore diameter and lack of a stock, not bbl length. As far as they are concerned, what's a few thousand more with a different length bbl? If there ever is a change and they have to recall or whatever they are no worse off than they were before. The makers of the shockwave grip are selling an accessory, it's up to the buyer to determine how to legally use it. Very little legal exposure for either company.

Currently ATF is not making an issue of the corner they have interpreted themselves into. This is not the same as being legal. As was pointed out on another thread, the fact that one can sell marijuana in some locations without being arrested for it is merely a lack of enforcement of Federal laws, not proof it is a legal activity. You will note no banks want anything to do with the huge amounts of revenue the "legal" pot stores are generating, why is that?
No disrespect intended here, but the fact that pistol grip shotguns have been legally transferred for "40 yrs." is a clue. Clearly these guns are legal, ATF approved and very "mainstream" guns. So why are you spending so much time and effort trying to out ATF the ATF?
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 01:08 AM   #96
KernelKrink
Curio & Relic
 
KernelKrink's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 2036
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy72 View Post
No disrespect intended here, but the fact that pistol grip shotguns have been legally transferred for "40 yrs." is a clue. Clearly these guns are legal, ATF approved and very "mainstream" guns. So why are you spending so much time and effort trying to out ATF the ATF?
For most of those 40 years they were considered "shotguns", a legally defined classification of firearm in the federal gun regs. That is why they have been sold for 40 years with no issues. If you recall, the Streetsweeper and USAS12 shotguns were also sold as normal mainstream guns and were approved by ATF until they decided they were too scary looking and overnight turned them into DDs by simply stating they weren't "sporting".

What changed and caused this issue is recently someone was trying to "think outside the box" and noticed the legal definition of "shotgun" stated it was shoulder fired, which a PGO smoothbore is not. They also noticed ATF had ruled that "concealable", a condition required for classification as an AOW, was decided to be under 26" overall length. So, they reasoned, if it wasn't a shotgun minimum bbl length did not apply, and some guns with a sub-18" bbl and a long pistol grip would exceed 26". Thus you could have what would otherwise be an SBS or AOW as long as you used a PGO smoothbore as the receiver.

So they asked ATF to confirm their thinking, and ATF (correctly) agreed that the PGO smoothbores Mossberg had been selling for 40 years were in fact NOT "shotguns" under Fed law, go ahead and make your short pistol grip smoothbore as it is not NFA. Thus the introduction of the Shockwave grip and numerous custom makers, and now Mossberg, introducing their versions.

What ATF and these manufacturers apparently did not think of was the ramifications of removing the shotgun classification from the Mossberg Persuaders/Cruisers, which was the removal of their exemption as a DD.

When this was pointed out to ATF they ignored the issue. So far. They have really backed themselves into a corner on this one. The only way out without creating a massive paperwork, legal, and PR nightmare is to change the law and expand the DD exemption to PGO smoothbore firearms, which so far has not happened.

I am not trying to "out ATF the ATF", I am pointing out they have erred in classifying this particular gun under the Fed regs. Just like they erred declaring 7N6 was AP ammo. Just because we like this error in our favor does not make it any less an error.

And still no one here has explained why, based on the regs, that these are exempt from the DD classification...
KernelKrink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 01:38 PM   #97
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg845 View Post
I'd love to put a single point sling on it.
I am thinking of trying a three point. I need to see if a sling adapter will fit between the grip and receiver. I used to have 870 that the three point worked great on.

Funny how these come with a sling loop on the tube, but nothing on the rear.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 02:01 PM   #98
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KernelKrink View Post
For most of those 40 years they were considered "shotguns", a legally defined classification of firearm in the federal gun regs. That is why they have been sold for 40 years with no issues. If you recall, the Streetsweeper and USAS12 shotguns were also sold as normal mainstream guns and were approved by ATF until they decided they were too scary looking and overnight turned them into DDs by simply stating they weren't "sporting".

What changed and caused this issue is recently someone was trying to "think outside the box" and noticed the legal definition of "shotgun" stated it was shoulder fired, which a PGO smoothbore is not. They also noticed ATF had ruled that "concealable", a condition required for classification as an AOW, was decided to be under 26" overall length. So, they reasoned, if it wasn't a shotgun minimum bbl length did not apply, and some guns with a sub-18" bbl and a long pistol grip would exceed 26". Thus you could have what would otherwise be an SBS or AOW as long as you used a PGO smoothbore as the receiver.

So they asked ATF to confirm their thinking, and ATF (correctly) agreed that the PGO smoothbores Mossberg had been selling for 40 years were in fact NOT "shotguns" under Fed law, go ahead and make your short pistol grip smoothbore as it is not NFA. Thus the introduction of the Shockwave grip and numerous custom makers, and now Mossberg, introducing their versions.

What ATF and these manufacturers apparently did not think of was the ramifications of removing the shotgun classification from the Mossberg Persuaders/Cruisers, which was the removal of their exemption as a DD.

When this was pointed out to ATF they ignored the issue. So far. They have really backed themselves into a corner on this one. The only way out without creating a massive paperwork, legal, and PR nightmare is to change the law and expand the DD exemption to PGO smoothbore firearms, which so far has not happened.

I am not trying to "out ATF the ATF", I am pointing out they have erred in classifying this particular gun under the Fed regs. Just like they erred declaring 7N6 was AP ammo. Just because we like this error in our favor does not make it any less an error.

And still no one here has explained why, based on the regs, that these are exempt from the DD classification...
Ok, have not heard of the pgo 18'' barreled shotguns being
other than a shotgun. Mossberg has sold kits with the stocked shotgun and pistol grip that can be added as an accessory.
To me those are an entirely different animal. Will research them a little deeper so I know.
But as for the Shockwave, will let you stew over ATFs murky regs, i will be out shooting and enjoying my latest gun!
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 02:04 PM   #99
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barth View Post
Mine is inbound.
What do you guys think about a side saddle?
Will be adding one, extra ammo on the gun is a great thing. Especially bulky and hard to carry as shotgun shells are in an emergency.
Will do a six rd. one,XS big dot night sites and a sling.
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 03:06 PM   #100
codifier
Your Huckleberry
 
codifier's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 170379
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,652
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian Sheepdog View Post
I need to see if a sling adapter will fit between the grip and receiver..
I dunno if that would end well. As I understand it the grip requires one to "choke up" on it towards the receiver, the adapter might bite you pretty good on anything above birdshot. Let us know how it turns out if you go that route.
__________________

Quote:
All the power [the State] has is what society gives it, plus what it confiscates from time to time on one pretext or another;
there is no other source from which State power can be drawn. Therefore every assumption of State power, whether by gift
or seizure, leaves society with so much less power.

― Albert Jay Nock, Our Enemy, the State
codifier is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 04:42 PM   #101
Libertarian Sheepdog
Senior Member
 
AKaholic #: 182589
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chobee
Posts: 540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codifier View Post
I dunno if that would end well. As I understand it the grip requires one to "choke up" on it towards the receiver, the adapter might bite you pretty good on anything above birdshot. Let us know how it turns out if you go that route.
Damn. Didn't think about that. I guess my best bet would be seeing if Shockwave can add a sling loop to their grips, or look into putting an Uncle Mike's loop on myself. I need to have this in hand to figure out what would work best.

Gunbuyer hasn't shipped mine yet. I ordered on Monday, and they are a two hour drive up to coast from my FFL. Still in "Processing" ......

About how long did it take everybody else's to ship?

ETA: Received shipping notice fifteen minutes ago. ETA of Monday.
__________________
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.

Last edited by Libertarian Sheepdog; 04-21-2017 at 06:38 PM.
Libertarian Sheepdog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 04:50 PM   #102
Rick53
Member
 
AKaholic #: 182631
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Muskegon,Michigan
Posts: 443
Default

I just posted a Pistol grip 500 in the Marketplace


Here's a video to Modify the pistol grip 500


Last edited by Rick53; 04-21-2017 at 04:57 PM.
Rick53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 09:19 PM   #103
Barth
Likes Suchkas
 
Barth's Avatar
 
AKaholic #: 168359
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 1,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smithy72 View Post
Will be adding one, extra ammo on the gun is a great thing. Especially bulky and hard to carry as shotgun shells are in an emergency.
Will do a six rd. one,XS big dot night sites and a sling.
Thanks for your input.
I'm going with Mesa Tactical and XS Big Dot front sight.
Life is Good
Barth is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2017, 11:50 PM   #104
Greg845
Member
 
AKaholic #: 182057
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 82
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codifier View Post
I dunno if that would end well. As I understand it the grip requires one to "choke up" on it towards the receiver, the adapter might bite you pretty good on anything above birdshot. Let us know how it turns out if you go that route.
https://www.voodootactical.net/shoot...ttachment.html

Something like this wouldn't be ok? Are you saying I could get some pinched me or jaming into my hand? I ask because I've never used an adapter like this before I'm pretty unfamiliar with using slings on shot guns or my rifles.

Last edited by Greg845; 04-22-2017 at 11:37 AM.
Greg845 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2017, 01:56 AM   #105
smithy72
Member
Contributor
 
AKaholic #: 187266
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Middle of no where
Posts: 308
Default

Yeah it is!! Mesa tactical is probably best quality out there. GG&G should be
worth looking at as well.
smithy72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 5 (2 members and 3 guests)
bmiller, M5253
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2017 The AK FIles