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Old 06-13-2017, 02:22 PM   #36
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Saiga-12 shotguns make better Short barreled shotguns as the larger gas piston allows for lower powered shells while still being safe with the larger ones.

Having fired a fair number of 3" magnum rounds with both the Saiga and Vepr, the Saiga is a lot better feeling as you can shut the gas down a lot more and prevent the carrier from beating the gun to death.
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Old 06-13-2017, 03:08 PM   #37
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KVAR just slit this things throat before they got done tying the umbilical cord...

https://www.k-var.com/shop/molot-vep...l-shotgun.html

$699...



Goes to show how much markup they have in these that only reveals itself under threat of competition
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:25 PM   #38
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Goes to show how much markup they have in these that only reveals itself under threat of competition
My tacked folder V12 was $800... 5 minutes later it folded. My legion S12 with the front end converted and hinged dust cover with rail was $900. I did the back end work in 20 minutes. (1 or both were from Atlantic, can't remember)

The Saiga was a sack of crap compared to the Vepr. And it works. It's still not even on the same playing field.

This K-USA KS12 is an unknown at $800+. Without the stats to compete with a fixed stock VEPR 12. No LRBHO, no ambi selector, front end still sporterized, weird grip, weird stock, for $125+ more moneys...

If it works 100%. It's still not competitive. You can take the magwell off the V12 and run rock and lock mags on it after making a simple adapter... cost $1-2 if you don't have a small piece of metal.



I guess we'll see if we'll be burying this next to the DDI-12, or not, soon enough. I don't see how not, as long as V12's keep coming in at, around, or less than what this costs.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:10 PM   #39
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So this $699 K-Var version has a regular AK trunnion that accepts all the stamped AK stock adapters out there?

If all I gotta do is unscrew the stock, put on my fav adapter, tube and stock of choice, i might have to get one of these hoez

Then I just gotta see if V for Vandetta will profile / polish the carrier, bolt and trigger hammer on this for me, for a fee of course, like he did on my other one. That shit runs smooth as fuck with all loads
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:16 AM   #40
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So this $699 K-Var version has a regular AK trunnion that accepts all the stamped AK stock adapters out there?

If all I gotta do is unscrew the stock, put on my fav adapter, tube and stock of choice, i might have to get one of these hoez

Then I just gotta see if V for Vandetta will profile / polish the carrier, bolt and trigger hammer on this for me, for a fee of course, like he did on my other one. That shit runs smooth as fuck with all loads
I agree with all of that!!! same idea for me
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Old 06-15-2017, 06:24 AM   #41
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same here as well with a plain poly buttstock
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:03 PM   #42
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Goes to show how much markup they have in these that only reveals itself under threat of competition
I remember when these first came out in the US for around $1000, and PapaZorro was trying to figure out how the US could sell them for less than what they sold them for in Russia.
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Old 06-16-2017, 02:24 AM   #43
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KVAR just slit this things throat before they got done tying the umbilical cord...

https://www.k-var.com/shop/molot-vep...l-shotgun.html

$699...



Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa...

Did you watch the video??

BRAND NEW ingenious features from Kvar like...a removable handgaurd!!!! AND the gas puc removal notch!!! Can you FUCKING believe it?

Mind. Blown.

Pants. Shit in.

Does this guy think we were born yesterday? Like, just say "we got some sqaurebacks with Ambi safeties and we hope they blow out like poop through a goose, so here's a $100 price drop for you bitches!!"

With that said, 100 units is not a game changer. There are a looooottttta AK shotguns bieng sold.

-V
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:15 PM   #44
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KVAR just slit this things throat before they got done tying the umbilical cord...

https://www.k-var.com/shop/molot-vep...l-shotgun.html

$699...


Now you realize why they were trying to blow out the V12-01/02/03 etc offering the $200 in (Mags and $50 gift card) in May. Wish I would have know about this before I dropped $850 on a used welded folder with a cut and pinned barrel, which I didn't know was cut and pinned, thanks GB.
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:16 PM   #45
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anyone stupid enough to buy this shit gets what they deserve
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Old 06-16-2017, 06:21 PM   #46
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One thing I leaned today about FIME/K-Var/Arsenal/Legion is how much they control the price of these things since they have the monopoly. Which is why I hope this K-USA project, PSA are successful and will eventually produce excellent quality AK pattern rifles/shotguns. A pipe dream to hope that FB-Radom will actually get a plant here at some point. The more people we have making great US AK pattern goods, the less we need to depend on K-Var/Fime/Arsenal/Legion
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:17 PM   #47
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Is legion affiliated with the other 3?
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Old 06-17-2017, 03:49 PM   #48
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Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa...

Did you watch the video??

BRAND NEW ingenious features from Kvar like...a removable handgaurd!!!! AND the gas puc removal notch!!! Can you FUCKING believe it?

Mind. Blown.

Pants. Shit in.

Does this guy think we were born yesterday? Like, just say "we got some sqaurebacks with Ambi safeties and we hope they blow out like poop through a goose, so here's a $100 price drop for you bitches!!"

With that said, 100 units is not a game changer. There are a looooottttta AK shotguns bieng sold.

-V



I did. It made me laugh. Your response made me laugh out loud at work and people are looking at me.

The next video will be, 100? We meant 1000. Wink. And they'll just go into the back of the warehouse and "find" a few more crates of them. KVAR/Arsenal/FIME has this gun hustle down to a science.


My fundamental point however was... the VEPR 12 has a track record as the best in this niche, better features, less sporterized, and if it's less money...

Do I want K-USA to build something better or that can actually compete with the V-12? Sure. Did they? Nope. The actual Saiga isn't better, and a copy of the Saiga with the same sporterized front end circa 2006 and some cheap plastic furniture isn't either. Let's say the Vepr is $1100. And this gun is $850. Based on the conversion work to get the front end right, the Vepr is still cheaper. (And more correct / complete) I'll double down on the blind and say built better too.

I'm not interested in the money politics of KVAR or where and how they are coming in. I'm just pointing out how uninteresting this gun is when you actually look what it is, for what it costs.
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Old 06-17-2017, 04:36 PM   #49
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solid points, my man. All of them.

I guess I'm looking at this from a big picture perspective.

KUSA seems to be doing what makes sense to them, and what seems pragmatic.

I can only imagine they are DROWNING in investment costs from all their various projects. This isn't the American arm of Kalashnikov(as we all know). This is RWC group rebranded. Their specialty was Saiga conversions. The couple examples I have handled were really really nice. I surmise that Instead of putting out a Vepr 12 clone, and having it suck, and possibly miss the mark in trying to equal the V12 and all its various awesome features, they stuck to what they knew best INITIALLY to enter the market.

There are still PLENTY of saiga fans out there who don't give a shit about Magwell and LRBHO and expensive mags and SGM drums and difficult(for the most part, not taking into account the news of this run of sqaureback) stock conversions, and fixed gas. Not to mention with piles of mags and accessories laying round.

From what I can see they do have plans to put out a Vepr 12/030 type model down the road. But believe me, I can tell you from working on a lot of these, the Vepr 12 Magwell and the LRBHO feature have a shit load of variables. To go after the big fish right out of the gates may have been too big of a risk for a company in KUSA's position. Im purely guessing here.

The advantage I see is an American built gun. With at least SOME American customer service and American QC. the possibility of American replacement parts. No threat of a hasty, random cessation of imports due to the whims of international politics. And for the saiga fans, an $825 out the door gun thats at least rear end converted. And I guarantee you the price is gonna come down.

That's all.

I still got faith in these guys. I don't know why.

-V
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:10 PM   #50
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Just bought a Vepr12 with solid stock from KVar....$699 and time is running out on these due to new sanction. I wanted one already .....this forced my hand . As of now ...3 left of the 100 they had.There were 26 two hours ago
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:26 PM   #51
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Just bought a Vepr12 with solid stock from KVar....$699 and time is running out on these due to new sanction. I wanted one already .....this forced my hand . As of now ...3 left of the 100 they had.There were 26 two hours ago
Yeah I saw this today. Better hope these KS-12's are up to snuff, because the VEPR ship is sailing. Really sucks as I'm never going to get that RPK now.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:48 PM   #52
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This is a dark,sad day. Not like there aren't a bazillion Veprs in the country all ready. But still. This sucks.

I recently visited a buddy of mine in Texas he had a Vepr 1V 23" RPK with folding stock, and factory bipod. Chambered in .223 with Molot 45 round mags. It was probably my favorite rifle I've ever shot.

-V
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:23 PM   #53
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The Vepr doesn't compare to the Saiga 030 that Molot copied. A few Saiga's were imported called IZ-433 that were the sporterized version of 030. To name just a few things that Molot missed when they copied it was Molot used a cheap plastic rail on the dust cover. It is a flimsy joke and Molot should be embarrassed for even going that cheap route. The IZ-433 has a steel rail on the dustcover... The Molot doesn't have a steel reinforcement in the magwell. The IZ-433 does... The Molot grip does have a better feel than the (hard to get) Izhmash grip. It's basically the Izhmash grip but with finger grooves. BUT... Molot didn't even take the time to add texture to their grip or handguard which also helps dull the surface as well as giving grip. They are shiny, look cheap dumb and incomplete. They look like our Molot grip copy (before Molot grips were available in the states) while we were testing the molds before adding the texture, lol. I can't imagine if on that day I said the mold runs great, let keep it running. Yeah right. Shut it down and get the mold acid etched for a texture, lol! Molot said let roll (with our half finished part).

Yeah, it may seem that the Molot was a better gun but how often is a copy better than the original. Not very and the same goes for the Molot. Just when Molot was getting started here in the states Izhmash was shortly shut down before many of the IZ-433's came in. That's the ONLY reason they stayed falsely seeming better. They aren't. Now that Izhmash (Kalashnikov Concern) has teamed with Kalashnikov USA you can expect them to take back over in this market. Assuming Molot eventually comes over domestic the way KC did...

That is likely why the sudden price drop of the Vepr. Because they knew they were just a cheap copy of the Saiga...

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Old 10-25-2017, 06:58 PM   #54
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^^^^^^ Dafuq
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:33 PM   #55
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Cold hard facts is what dafuq, lol.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:35 PM   #56
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The Vepr doesn't compare to the Saiga 030 that Molot copied. A few Saiga's were imported called IZ-433 that were the sporterized version of 030. To name just a few things that Molot missed when they copied it was Molot used a cheap plastic rail on the dust cover. It is a flimsy joke and Molot should be embarrassed for even going that cheap route. The IZ-433 has a steel rail on the dustcover... The Molot doesn't have a steel reinforcement in the magwell. The IZ-433 does... The Molot grip does have a better feel than the (hard to get) Izhmash grip. It's basically the Izhmash grip but with finger grooves. BUT... Molot didn't even take the time to add texture to their grip or handguard which also helps dull the surface as well as giving grip. They are shiny, look cheap dumb and incomplete. They look like our Molot grip copy (before Molot grips were available in the states) while we were testing the molds before adding the texture, lol. I can't imagine if on that day I said the mold runs great, let keep it running. Yeah right. Shut it down and get the mold acid etched for a texture, lol! Molot said let roll (with our half finished part).

Yeah, it may seem that the Molot was a better gun but how often is a copy better than the original. Not very and the same goes for the Molot. Just when Molot was getting started here in the states Izhmash was shortly shut down before many of the IZ-433's came in. That's the ONLY reason they stayed falsely seeming better. They aren't. Now that Izhmash (Kalashnikov Concern) has teamed with Kalashnikov USA you can expect them to take back over in this market. Assuming Molot eventually comes over domestic the way KC did...

That is likely why the sudden price drop of the Vepr. Because they knew they were just a cheap copy of the Saiga...
First its not copy, where did you get that nonsense. Both are nice shotguns whether its saiga or vepr. Vepr makes high quality weapons.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:36 PM   #57
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Cold hard facts is what dafuq, lol.
you didn't say any facts, speculations yes
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:38 AM   #58
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Izhmash made the first AK based 12ga. They also made the 030 model before Molot copied it as well. That is all there is to it. The Vepr is most definitely a copy of the Saiga. Molot most definitely went the cheaper route for ease of manufacturing also by excluding Saiga features that made for better quality and durability. Heck. Molot didn't even make a new mold for their 5 Rd mag and just cut the bottom of of their 8rd mags. When the 030 was imported Izhmash made a new mold for the five rounder that came with it. Just another example of Molot taking the cheaper route. I never said Molot doesn't make good weapons. What I said was the Saiga IZ-433 is better than the Vepr-12 and that is a fact. If not then please tell me what is better about the Vepr-12 than a IZ-433. Just because the Vepr was denuetured here in the states before release doesn't really count in my opinion. I am talking about the fundemental components and there is better quality in the Saiga. Like a steel rail vs a flimsy plastic rail. Like metal reinforced magwells vs no reinforcements. Dulling and gripping texture on furniture vs shiny and slick furniture. I am betting the money saving changes at the cost of quality doesn't stop there either. I have both. Do you have a IZ-433 to compare to? Not trying to be rude but if not you have no facts to base your opinion on and no way to compare with experience. It isn't me that is speculating. Everything I stated here is in fact a fact weather people want to believe it or not. It doesn't change the facts.
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:31 AM   #59
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Molot most definitely went the cheaper route for ease of manufacturing .
I guess Molot for the win then big time, since they went the cheaper route and managed to make a better functioning and more reliable gun!
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:09 AM   #60
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I always preferred having the gas adjustment.. The vepr having no gas adjustments makes 3" shells way more punishing than it needs to be.

K-USA also has no real connection with the Russians.. They got investigated because of the implied connection and it was not found to be an issue.

The K-USA guns are from most accounts well made.
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:00 AM   #61
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I guess Molot for the win then big time, since they went the cheaper route and managed to make a better functioning and more reliable gun!
Have you ever used a IZ-433? The one Molot copied... If not you can't say the Molot functions better...

The Vepr-12 is more prone to the magwell flexing with a high cap mag and heavy loads and dropping it than the steel reinforced IZ-433. I wouldn't call that better functioning...
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Old 10-26-2017, 12:32 PM   #62
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The Vepr-12 is more prone to the magwell flexing with a high cap mag and heavy loads and dropping it than the steel reinforced IZ-433. I wouldn't call that better functioning...
Cant say ive heard a single person mention this "issue" nor have experienced it with the (2) vepr 12's Ive owned. Hell a google search doesnt really bring up anything on it either

And I wasnt referring to the IZ-433, i was referring to non magwell Saiga shotguns. That being said, what does any of anything that you have said since popping up in this thread yesterday have to do with the Kalash USA shotgun?
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Old 10-27-2017, 12:59 AM   #63
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im annoyed that they bring in the silly 5rd mags anyways, then kvar jacks the price up on em after takin em outta the shotgun box...as far as i know all these ATF studys etc have just made it easier and better to get shotguns with cool features from overseas...

now in the present debate, in my mind, the vepr is gonna cost more to produce with the features it has vs saiga.... metal magwell adn top rail i could dig... lack of texture on grips, meh, i could pay an armslist fudd to stipple it for me.... its kinda like those wood unfinished stocks that came in while back, they really politically aware. knew they gotta get this stuff to market before bans/elections/ yada yada.

so back to vepr price, you have magwell, lrbho assy and lever, hinging top cover, real rear sight, real front sight, gas tube guard, lower hand guard, lower hand guard retainer, and the extra man hours of assembling that stuff. granted if they like ford and have no options, then retraining work force wouldnt be necessary if they only build one model.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:08 AM   #64
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Does anyone know if the 10 or 8 round mags for this thing are sold separately? If so, where and for how much?

I couldn't care less how reliable the ks12t is. Vepr 12, Saiga 12, this thing, all suffer from needing a large and constant supply go reliable mags...
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:21 AM   #65
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Does anyone know if the 10 or 8 round mags for this thing are sold separately? If so, where and for how much?

I couldn't care less how reliable the ks12t is. Vepr 12, Saiga 12, this thing, all suffer from needing a large and constant supply go reliable mags...
The KS-12 uses any saiga-12 magazine.. Including mine.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:00 PM   #66
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Having owned my pre-ban folding SAIGA 12C "police use only" Shotgun for over a decade, I can verify that it is a tough & reliable shotgun. It has fired every type of long base shot shell & slug I have fed it. The factory breacher was welded on to equal minimum barrel length. It has been 100% reliable. I like its fast loading/arming feature.
its AK action tames recoil & can be comfortably fired with stock folded.
I was very lucky to find it.
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:54 PM   #67
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Having owned my pre-ban folding SAIGA 12C "police use only" Shotgun for over a decade
Do you have any pictures of the whole shotgun?
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:25 AM   #68
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Do you have any pictures of the whole shotgun?
Yep, Kept trying to post 2 pix but got stuck with that one. Trying again......looks like it worked.
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Old 01-17-2018, 04:10 PM   #69
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Yep, Kept trying to post 2 pix but got stuck with that one. Trying again......looks like it worked.
The board's image attachment system is broken.

Hence, we have Posting pictures on this site - AK Files
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:29 PM   #70
CLEAR-SKY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazig View Post
Yep, Kept trying to post 2 pix but got stuck with that one. Trying again......looks like it worked.
Thanks! Nice 12C. I missed my shot at those.
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